The Good shepherd

[Jose]

Hi, I was looking for a reason why the good shepherd was called "the good shepherd" and I found this

https://www.forbes.com/sites/forbesbusinessdevelopmentcouncil/2021/03/11/are-you-a-shepherd-leader/?sh=626e02cb3ed8

Good shepherd leadership versus orlanthi/yelmite leadership. 

What do you think? 

[Bill the barbarian]

Anything that starts with a quote on leadership by Nelson Mandela can't be bad!

 

Quote

“A leader... is like a shepherd. He or she stays behind the flock, letting the most nimble go out ahead, whereupon the others follow, not realizing that all along they are being directed from behind.” —Nelson Mandela

 

[Jose]

18 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Anything that starts with a quote on leadership by Nelson Mandela can't be bad!

 

 

I suppose that is what happens when you lead with the Life rune. We are told that Uleria has three aspects, one of them is community's love that I think is the relevant point here. 

Edited November 6, 2022 by Jose

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

A leader... is like a shepherd

Sooner or later — lamb or mutton — the flock is led to the abattoir.

[Bill the barbarian]

Too bleak for me!

 

[mfbrandi]

3 minutes ago, Bill the barbarian said:

Too bleak for me!

Sorry, Bill. Management speak gets my goat. And this bit sounds positively Nysalorean/Gbajian:

Quote

To act as the shepherd leader in all that is said and done — to build through mentor example a team of brave refulgent shepherds to ensure the longest tail for market opportunity.

“Refulgent” is a dead giveaway, right? Bright Empire MLM — no plague too small or too large for our in-house experts.

[mfbrandi]

3 hours ago, Jose said:

I was looking for a reason why the good shepherd was called "the good shepherd" … What do you think? 

Surely, the reference must be to old JC (John 10). But whether the Good Shepherd’s worship’s being supplanted by Waha and the Storm Bull is a dig at Christianity or a comment on the sad state of Prax, I could not say.

[Jose]

13 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

Surely, the reference must be to old JC (John 10). But whether the Good Shepherd’s worship’s being supplanted by Waha and the Storm Bull is a dig at Christianity or a comment on the sad state of Prax, I could not say.

I was thinking more about how to lead, soft touch versus the gods war "hard power", that kind of thing. Where Orlanth is "follow me" and yelm is more "this is the way" Good shepherd is more "earth/Ernalda's way" maybe even he didn't want to lead it was just the way of things in green age . Just trying to find an answer. 

[Ali the Helering]

2 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Surely, the reference must be to old JC (John 10). But whether the Good Shepherd’s worship’s being supplanted by Waha and the Storm Bull is a dig at Christianity or a comment on the sad state of Prax, I could not say.

It was a flexible aspect of deity in the Eastern Med at the time of Christ, apply it to the deity of your choice.  There are statues with sheep or cattle slung over their shoulders.  Jesus saying "I am the Good Shepherd" was one of his claims to godhood which we often miss.

[Akhôrahil]

19 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

Sooner or later — lamb or mutton — the flock is led to the abattoir.

In the Uralda heroquest in King of Dragon Pass, this is taken as a fair exchange. Beats being eaten by wolves!

The whole shepherd thing also has the unpleasant (to me, at least) connotation that a fair number of police and military people seem to embrace, that there are sheep (the regular people), wolves (who want to eat them - criminals or foreign enemies) and shepherds (who protect the sheep but need to be in charge of them because they can't handle it themselves).

17 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Jesus saying "I am the Good Shepherd" was one of his claims to godhood which we often miss.

And Orlanthi would certainly see the need to separate the sheep from the goats!

Edited November 7, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[mfbrandi]

4 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

there are sheep (the regular people), wolves (who want to eat them - criminals or foreign enemies) and shepherds (who protect the sheep but need to be in charge of them …)

And pretty soon, you cannot tell the wolves from the shepherds.

In fairness to cops and soldiers, I think there are plenty of groups who consider themselves superior to the average run of humanity — pick your favourite geeky fandom or self-imagined pariah elite — but although they are wrong, too, they maybe don’t all have guns.

Edited November 7, 2022 by mfbrandi
tact

[Bill the barbarian]

24 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

And pretty soon, you cannot tell the wolves from the shepherds. [More corrosive cynicism suppressed, so as not to upset @Bill the barbarian.]

 

I was very tempted to flag this as abusive...

I will ask you very politely to please not use my name in a mocking way to show that you are so magnanimous that you even show consideration for that nasty barbarian. It is a nasty trick and I do not appreciate it!

Have a great day!

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, Bill the barbarian said:

I will ask you very politely to please not use my name in a mocking way

My apologies, Bill. No offence meant.

[Akhôrahil]

On 11/6/2022 at 8:33 PM, mfbrandi said:

Surely, the reference must be to old JC (John 10). But whether the Good Shepherd’s worship’s being supplanted by Waha and the Storm Bull is a dig at Christianity or a comment on the sad state of Prax, I could not say.

There seems to be a tendency for old cool shepherd gods to be lost and replaced. TGS, Varnaval the Shepherd King, and in my personal interpretation how Voriof/Vorios used to be a much more important god before being dramatically reduced. Even Urothrol, Heler as a fighty ram.

Edited November 7, 2022 by Akhôrahil

[Jose]

15 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

There seems to be a tendency for old cool shepherd gods to be lost and replaced. TGS, Varnaval the Shepherd King, and in my personal interpretation how Voriof/Vorios used to be a much more important god before being dramatically reduced.

Yes, I hope Jeff give us more information in the new Gods book. 

[moonwolf8]

On 11/6/2022 at 4:40 PM, Ali the Helering said:

It was a flexible aspect of deity in the Eastern Med at the time of Christ, apply it to the deity of your choice.  There are statues with sheep or cattle slung over their shoulders.  

I remember picking up a library copy of Mythic Image by Joseph Campbell.  Inside were three images side by side: Jesus, Hermes, and Mithras, all of them depicted as the Good Shepard.

 

On 11/7/2022 at 3:42 PM, Jose said:

Yes, I hope Jeff give us more information in the new Gods book. 

Agreed, I'm am looking forward to it's release.

[Baron Wulfraed]

23 minutes ago, moonwolf8 said:

I remember picking up a library copy of Mythic Image by Joseph Campbell.  Inside were three images side by side: Jesus, Hermes, and Mithras, all of them depicted as the Good Shepard.

The Mithras comparison may be closer than thought...

The Mithras cult was "mystery religion" restricted to men (at least as the Romans adopted it) with worship held in secret. Mithras had a documented date of birth of... December 25 (or equivalent Persian date).

 

The early Christian Church leaders selected December 25 as DoB for Jesus to subdue Mithras worship... After all, you now have the excluded wives of those worshippers who now pressure the men to come to Christian ceremonies since such ceremonies welcome the entire family -- instead of having the wife sit at home alone...

Consider -- gospels imply shepherds were watching flocks... But at that time of year, the flocks would have been brought in from the fields and placed in fenced areas. Late January to late February is when shepherds would be watching flocks -- as that is lambing season and the shepherds would be watching for ewes having problems. The census is also likely held in warmer weather. Jesus was more likely to have been born early March...

[Ali the Helering]

4 hours ago, Baron Wulfraed said:

The Mithras comparison may be closer than thought...

The Mithras cult was "mystery religion" restricted to men (at least as the Romans adopted it) with worship held in secret. Mithras had a documented date of birth of... December 25 (or equivalent Persian date).

A recent discovery of a dedicatory plaque from a woman has proven that female membership of the cult was not unknown. 

[mfbrandi]

7 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

A recent discovery of a dedicatory plaque from a woman has proven that female membership of the cult was not unknown.

I have nothing against the idea of women initiates of Mithras — and would definitely hope for them in Gloranthan Mithras-clone cults — but do cough up the reference rather than leaving us hanging.

[Ali the Helering]

Damned if I can remember - it was back before Covid, I think it was in Britain, but I am not certain.  I shall go looking....

[Ali the Helering]

No luck I'm afraid.  I just remember reading it and emitting a loud "Oooo"!

It appears that the idea of it being all-male has somewhat fallen out of favour anyway, since it is known from the writings of Porphyry that there was a female initiatory grade called the 'hyena'.  It has been argued that this is derogatory, but the female hyena is a creature to be both admired and feared for her hunting capabilities.  Likewise, her anatomy leads to an interesting conversation regarding gender and sexual identity.

[mfbrandi]

3 hours ago, Ali the Helering said:

Likewise, her anatomy leads to an interesting conversation regarding gender and sexual identity.

The spotted hyena is indeed a wonderful beast.

[soltakss]

On 11/7/2022 at 7:19 PM, mfbrandi said:

My apologies, Bill. No offence meant.

You should have put spoilers around it!

[whitelaughter]

On 11/10/2022 at 11:52 AM, Baron Wulfraed said:

The early Christian Church leaders selected December 25 as DoB for Jesus to subdue Mithras worship...

Eh, no. They calculated the date of Christmas from the Gospels; the conception of John the Baptist was in September(known from the dates his father's family served in the Temple) add six months to the conception of Jesus, add 9 months to His birth, and it is now late December.

These claims are easily made, but rarely survive even a casual investigation. We don't even know the birth date for Mithras, merely that it was in summer (and full grown, and from the side of a mountain).

[Ali the Helering]

Sorry guys, but December 25th was the festal day of Sol Invictus. 

Since the mid-8th century there has been some discussion as to whether Christianity appropriated it, but no actual evidence for it.

There is an huge problem with 25th as Jesus' birthday as recorded in the Gospels, though.  No shepherds in their right minds 'abide in the fields' with their flocks in late December in the Judean hills.