Alchemy Herbalism & Magic

[Erol of Backford]

Mr. West's post started me thinking...

There are relatively few Bronze Age medical texts.  One of the few sources is Ancient Egypt, and they don't describe the digestive system despite their work on anatomy afaik.  The Yellow Emperor's Classic of Medicine (which is iron age but a very early surviving medical treatise) describes the Digestive system as working like a fuel burning stove.  This clearly can't work with Glorantha, as Fire is associated with Intellect, not Constitution which is Earth or devouring which is Darkness.

 

Dwarves use fire and magic to change the state of elements? I am looking at how magic could or would work on alchemy (unrelated to metals for armor or weapons) and herbalism (obviously enchant or maybe enhance). Are there spells that enhance the effectiveness of these "crafts" and if so how have you integrated them into your campaigns you have run or participated in? Would potions become more powerful or last longer, more deadly? We have enchant iron, etc. why not enchant herbs of various sorts? it seems that living things, plants could also be enchanted?

What spells are cast to make potions? I obviously missed it if there are spells associated so if there is a source, patron deities, etc. please let me know. 

Again if this sort of thread has been posted please advise and I'll add these thoughts to it.

Thank you all!

 

[Darius West]

Alchemy and Herbalism within Glorantha have long been more-or-less untouched.  Greg was never particularly happy with the Alchemy rules in RQ1 and 2, and didn't see them as being particularly Gloranthan, but grudgingly conceded that Alchemy probably had a place.  I don't think Greg was as negative about herbalism.

Some cults have a lot to do with alchemy.  Chalana Arroy and Lhankor Mhy are good examples of cults that teach Alchemy as a cult secret, but Lanbril the thief god also makes use of alchemy for sneeze powder and other concoctions useful in larceny.  We may ask whether Mostal is really a cult, but certainly the Quicksilver Dwarves have potion enhancing magic, and are often regarded as the greatest alchemists.  The Malkioni have the Ezokites, primarily in Leplain, Seshnela.  The Kralori have the Thalurzni and the Goldern Elixir Monks.  The folk of Fonrit also have alchemists who specialize in perfumes apparently. 

There are lots of write-ups relating to herbs and plant life found in Prax and other regions.  For this reason I wouldn't be surprised if the Pavic Rubble cult of Iffinbix once had alchemists, given their reliance on a poison with the agipith root as an antidote to protect their temples in the Rubble.  Iffinbix smacks of alchemy, likely based on herbalism to me, but was mainly sorcerous.  Using sorcery to amp up the effects of herbal concentrates and poisons could be very powerful.

Personally I have no problem with Alchemy, and see it as a logical outgrowth of the World Machine and God Learnerism.  I am surprised that Zzaburi aren't all running about with INT and MP enhancing potions and the entire engagement with the study of Alchemy seems to be localized in Leplain.  To my mind, it surprises me that alchemical studies aren't more widespread in the Genertelan West.

Historically on Earth, Alchemy was intimately involved in medicines, poisons, metallurgy, recreational and religious drugs, the creation of dyes and mordants, perfumes, Greek fire, corrosives (acids and bases), phosphorus matches, gunpowder, surfactants like caustic soda that make soap, concrete, and likely a few other things I haven't listed.  RQ2 used to allow for potions that could hold Battle Magic (aka Spirit Magic) spells, but that is apparently no longer the case.  I would imagine if alchemy can hold spirit magic, it can hold sorcery.

I seriously think that these systems need more attention, and have taken a few tentative steps in that direction myself, having put together collections of herbs and some notes on potential alchemical rules for "matters alchemical" not included in RQG.

 

Edited February 11, 2023 by Darius West

[Erol of Backford]

37 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Using sorcery to amp up the effects of herbal concentrates and poisons could be very powerful.

Now were cooking, or rather should say brewing?

39 minutes ago, Darius West said:

Historically on Earth, Alchemy was intimately involved in medicines, poisons, metallurgy, the creation of dyes and mordants, perfumes, Greek fire, corrosives (acids and bases), phosphorus matches, gunpowder, surfactants like caustic soda that make soap, concrete, and likely a few other things I haven't listed. 

Easily integrated into dwarven and sorcery secrets, some only learned in local environs, maybe spread similar to Trickster Shrines where you need to travel far and wide to find the spells or better yet incantations? I suppose it'd be similar to local spirits and their spells as well?

In order to learn how to make this love potion you'll need to travel to X and pick the forbidden fruit from Y and brew it in the thing-a-ma-jig... I recall certain fruit on a tree in a very difficult location to access that could be brewed into a battle magic potion but the tree or bush was a magical plant already... I suppose its a magical world with magic, chaos, etc. flora of all sorts so maybe spells aren't needed but an incantation like something spoken by witches brewing sound interesting, why not.

Enhance herb? This PC from Prax has an enchanted hookah of Ishtar the Relaxed... which lets them go aethereal or is it ethereal?

But don't forget dwarves will try to kill those who steal their secrets and sorcerers do worse?

[Darius West]

4 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

But don't forget dwarves will try to kill those who steal their secrets and sorcerers do worse?

I don't think Iffinbix is a Mostali deity, but never say never; it is a remote possibility.  He's some sort of Earth sorcery "deity" associated with the City Sorcerers of Old Pavis.  I have been collecting snippets of lost and hidden Iffinbix lore for a while now.

Edited February 11, 2023 by Darius West

[metcalph]

I think Dwarf Alchemy should their steampunkish vibe and be a different beast than other sources of alchemy. They would actively avoid using sorcery or Maker Magic as much as possible.  Their means of making potions would be convoluted crafting schemes.

A human taking a dwarven potion might suffer 1 general HP of damage as it's not suited for humans.  The dwarves sell it to them any way since they don't care.  For potions, I generally lean model them after the Fallout CRPG rather than spirit magic or sorcery.

Thus:

ALL-RAGE:  Induces a berserk rage.  Popular among some Iron Dwarves.

MONO: Induces a trance state which allows the User to focus intensely on one task at hand.  Popular among some Iron Dwarves who don't like ALL-RAGE 

NO THOUGHT:  User becomes a suggestive automaton capable of simple tasks.  Disturbingly popular among some dwarves who find it difficult to cope with the drudgery of their tasks.

MINDFUEL:  A salt made from Quicksilver and ingested as a powder.  User becomes prone to dazzling attacks of inspiration.

etc.

The Quicksilver Dwarves attempt to push these potions and others onto the dwarves of other castes and even among some humans.  They won't take payment in coin but rather favours and the like.  The Gold Dwarves see it as contrary to the Plan (insofar as it subverts their roles as supervisors of Mostali society) and do what they can to curb their use.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Squaredeal Sten]

Alchemy and herbalism are firmly present in Gloranths, specifically in Runequest.

Alchemy is a skill in the RQ character sheets. Old and new.

So is plant lore - the change from earlier editions was to get rid of Find Healing Plants as a skill redundant to Plant lore.

Quicksilver dwarfs are the dwarf alchemusts.  Search Well of Daliath for  alchemy and you will find a very explanatory piece of art direction about dwarfs.  Quicksilver is at the bottom.

The Red Book of Magic has a section on potions, as well as some relevant spells.  This is the same information that was in the Chalana Arroy long-form write ups in RQ2 (Cult co.pendium, Gods of Prax.)

W&E has some plants written up.

What RQ doesn't do is present a how-to on alchemy.  It's a skill the adventurer and non player characters can have, but they know how to do it and for the players it happens in the background.

But enough hints are provided for you to elaborate: herbs are gathered, then magically Preserved.  Processing into potions can concentrate them for more effect.  Potions generally last only a season. Example plants and potions are written up.  I think it's implied that your alchemist character needs lab equipment but there is no alchemical equipment write up, probably because that would get into writing actual processes which are not the stuff of adventure.  

 

 

 

[radmonger]

You could do something with alchemy as an extension  of the sorcery rules.

1. modified alchemy skill /5 gives you your effective 'free int' limiting the intensity of spell manipulation
2. 'infuse' is effectively an additional sorcery technique that is added to the requirements to cast a sorcery spell.
3. generic valuable components and/or wild herbs provide effective mp to the potion
4. specific exotic components provides effective mastery of a rune or technique required by a spell
5. potions must spend intensity on duration twice; once for shelf lifetime and once for effect lifetime.
6. the base for shelf life manipulation is 10 (2 days); 1 extra intensity gets you a potion that lasts 4 days, 3 one that lasts 4 weeks.

So an alchemist, perhaps a follower of the Chalana Arroy subcult Arroin, wants to create an 'accelerate healing' potion. They have a skill of 60, which is modified by ritual bonuses to 80. This gives them 16 points of intensity  available.

However 'infuse command life' is three techniques, so the cost is 8x, meaning only 2 intensity. Without exotic ingredients, or sorcerous knowledge, they can create a potion which doubles natural healing rate for 20 minutes. This is mostly used as a hangover cure, but if no other magic was available might work to prevent someone from bleeding out.

On the other hand, if they have a supply  of alchemical essence that provides mastery of the 'infuse' technique, they could do a lot more. And if they have the liver of a walktupus, and are a sorceror who has personally mastered the 'command' technique, they can create an intensity 16 potion, with a shelf life of a week, duration of 2 days, and triple effect.

Which will cure most ills, and doesn't require any critically limited resources like castings of CA cult magic.

 

[mfbrandi]

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

MINDFUEL:  A salt made from Quicksilver and ingested as a powder.  User becomes prone to dazzling attacks of inspiration.

Or after Tom Disch, the syphilis is the source of inspiration. The ‘quicksilver’ is just the dwarves’ attempt to keep the unwanted effects at bay.

[Erol of Backford]

6 hours ago, Darius West said:

I have been collecting snippets of lost and hidden Iffinbix lore for a while now.

Start a new thread, I'll see what I might find as well. I am getting better at rummaging through old zines. Almost like a history research paper?!

[Erol of Backford]

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

I think Dwarf Alchemy should their steampunkish vibe and be a different beast than other sources of alchemy.

I like this but not the part about not using magic, sorcery fits but not spirit or divine as much...  pressure cookers, laboratory environments of course. 

5 hours ago, metcalph said:

A human taking a dwarven potion might suffer 1 general HP of damage as it's not suited for humans.  The dwarves sell it to them any way since they don't care.  For potions, I generally lean model them after the Fallout CRPG rather than spirit magic or sorcery.

Similar to Troll drinks?!

2 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Alchemy is a skill in the RQ character sheets. Old and new.

So is plant lore - the change from earlier editions was to get rid of Find Healing Plants as a skill redundant to Plant lore.

Agreed, I suppose anyone could just say there are some basic spells that enhance potions, poison mushrooms, powders, etc. is it magic or herbal medicine?

3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

What RQ doesn't do is present a how-to on alchemy.  It's a skill the adventurer and non player characters can have, but they know how to do it and for the players it happens in the background.

I suppose this were GM-PC interaction comes to play. We have Refine Medicine and Preserve Herbs from the Red Book of Magic, as you referenced.

2 hours ago, radmonger said:

So an alchemist, perhaps a follower of the Chalana Arroy subcult Arroin, wants to create an 'accelerate healing' potion. They have a skill of 60, which is modified by ritual bonuses to 80. This gives them 16 points of intensity  available.

It would be a combination of skills and magic to enhance the medium in question.

This is enough to go on, work with.

Thank you all. (I should actually read the Red Book of Magic.)

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I like this but not the part about not using magic

Putting aside the question of game mechanics, is Gloranthan alchemy not itself magic?

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

I like this but not the part about not using magic, sorcery fits but not spirit or divine as much...  pressure cookers, laboratory environments of course. 

Maker Magic costs POW.  Thus the Dwarves have an incentive to use it as little as possible.  They are more likely to use some factory following a Rube Goldberg crafting scheme rather than to cast a simple spell.  Rather than use a spell to create water into wine, they are more likely to fill a cauldron with wood and water, boil that for a lengthy period of time and add tincture - made by another complicated process - to the distillate to make wine.  

Spoiler

The catch/joke is that this makes the wrong sort of alcohol which is toxic to humans.

 

[Erol of Backford]

I suppose dwarven canned food is similarly nutritious and tasty to humans (not) but won't kill or blind them. There were several stabilize spells which without some really high intensity are somewhat useless.

[Joerg]

I think it is Elder Secrets which has a recipe for a batch of canned food that a supervisor regarded as "too brainy" for a slightly high content of gold in trace amounts.

[soltakss]

On 2/11/2023 at 2:41 AM, Erol of Backford said:

Are there spells that enhance the effectiveness of these "crafts" and if so how have you integrated them into your campaigns you have run or participated in?

From the Red Book of Magic:

• Preserve Herbs keeps the picked plants at the same Potency, so they don't fade with time.
• Refine Medicine allows you to increase the Potency and change the Seasonal Potency or Usefulness
• Spider's head and Venom Boosting increase the Potency of poison as a raw material

From the Book of Doom:

• Stabilize (Property) allows Mostali to work with and modify alchemical concoctions

On 2/11/2023 at 2:41 AM, Erol of Backford said:

Would potions become more powerful or last longer, more deadly? We have enchant iron, etc. why not enchant herbs of various sorts? it seems that living things, plants could also be enchanted?

Yes, why not? Spells could be used to enhance these, especially if from a spirit/hero/deity that uses Alchemy.

On 2/11/2023 at 2:41 AM, Erol of Backford said:

What spells are cast to make potions? I obviously missed it if there are spells associated so if there is a source, patron deities, etc. please let me know. 

I don't think that spells are used to create potions, although there is no reason why a spell cannot create a potion.

The code RQG rules uses the Alchemy skill.

The Book of Doom has specialist Brew skills to make a potion, that can be boosted using Alchemy. In fact, this covers Alchemy in some detail, concentrating on the brewing of various concoctions rather than the mystical side of Alchemy.

 

 

[Darius West]

On 2/12/2023 at 7:26 AM, mfbrandi said:

Putting aside the question of game mechanics, is Gloranthan alchemy not itself magic?

The answer to this question is as likely to be no as yes.  It might appear as magic to some, but it is the product of a lore skill, ingredients, and manual preparation, and so while the effect of alchemy might seem magical, there is no reason to presume that it is (or isn't).  In the present RQG manifestation where alchemy relates to poisons, cures, and healing, it seems more medical than anything else, but alchemy potentially is not necessarily so limited in its scope.  If we look at RQ2 Battle Magic potions, they would seem to be actually magical imo, but are they even in the game anymore?  Let's quote Arthur C. Clarke and say alchemy looks like magic, but probably isn't most of the time.

[Erol of Backford]

21 hours ago, Darius West said:

The answer to this question is as likely to be no as yes.  It might appear as magic to some, but it is the product of a lore skill, ingredients, and manual preparation, and so while the effect of alchemy might seem magical, there is no reason to presume that it is (or isn't).

A healing potion that works instantaneous seems like magic to me whereas a potion that lets you heal twice a fast as normal healing, say after first aid is more like herbal medicine.

So instant "poof its like magic" healing is likely magic and "yuck, tastes like fermented squid guts" and helps you heal over time albeit much faster than normal is herbal.

The question is when you make a healing potion (simple example) for it to me instantaneous it needs to be magical through some incantation of sorcery, spirit magic, divine blessing or possibly it is made from magical plants?

[radmonger]

i'm not sure magic versus non magic is even the right framing, in a flat world with a hole in the middle.

Perhaps more useful is the terminology used by the Mostali:

• working: functions according to its nature without requiring energy inputs
• malfunctioning: requires regular energy inputs from an external source (i.e. requires regular donations of MP)
• broken: requires repair or recreation (i.e. requires sacrifice of POW)

For example, the sun is currently working, in that it will shine on worshiper and non-worshiper alike. Before the First Great Repair, this was not the case. Such local sources of light and heat as did exist either required continual sacrifice to maintain, or become degraded over time.

Most human food production systems are malfunctioning, in that storms, droughts and crop blights require active intervention. 

The sea is broken, as the sun once was. Most Mostali consider plugging the Chaos rift at it's heart the highest priority for the next Great Repair.

 

 

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

• working: functions according to its nature without requiring energy inputs
• malfunctioning: requires regular energy inputs from an external source …
• broken: requires repair or recreation …

For example, the sun is currently working, in that it will shine on worshiper and non-worshiper alike. Before the First Great Repair, this was not the case. Such local sources of light and heat as did exist either required continual sacrifice to maintain, or become degraded over time.

So how does our sun fit into this categorization? It is shining now — without requiring energy inputs — but it will degrade over time, and it is not clear to me that anything can be done about that.

So is something that has a finite useful life and cannot be refueled working (if limited) or broken? It doesn’t seem to be malfunctioning. (You can see why the growers would shake their heads — fronds? — at this way of looking at making.)

Perhaps for the Mostali only a perpetual motion machine is truly working. If so, no wonder the repairs are not going well.

[radmonger]

14 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

So how does our sun fit into this categorization? It is shining now — without requiring energy inputs — but it will degrade over time, and it is not clear to me that anything can be done about that.

Currently working, next scheduled maintenance is October 23rd, 97165471 CE.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_lifting

Some philosophy-minded Mostali have a fourth category, perfected, in which a thing operates without even the need for scheduled maintenance. This is a theoretical idea, one clearly never realized within the world. Or it would not be in the state it is.

Edited February 15, 2023 by radmonger

[mfbrandi]

1 minute ago, radmonger said:

16 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

So how does our sun fit into this categorization?

Currently working,

So an animal is malfunctioning — because if you don’t shovel food into its mouth, it will eventually stop moving — but if we sew up its mouth to prevent refueling (and maybe stamp it “amended design approved” in green ink), we will have upgraded it to working? I don’t know whether I am failing to think like a Mostali or thinking all-too-like a Mostali.

[Darius West]

1 hour ago, mfbrandi said:

So an animal is malfunctioning — because if you don’t shovel food into its mouth, it will eventually stop moving — but if we sew up its mouth to prevent refueling (and maybe stamp it “amended design approved” in green ink), we will have upgraded it to working? I don’t know whether I am failing to think like a Mostali or thinking all-too-like a Mostali.

But Beast rune units require fuel to operate...  Unless this alteration has been Death Rune approved by the Council of Stasis, we need to rescind this amendment and re-designate the design for Plant Rune removal and concentration as before.  Its purpose is Plant rune removal; that it it's work.  It is important work too, as Plant Runes proliferate out of control in the World Machine.  When it cannot perform its work, (due to having its design altered by someone sealing shut its fuel intake in this case), it will obtain the Death rune and the raw materials of the Beast unit can be repurposed as fuel for other units or as components for use in manufacture.  We require the appropriate clearances before we employ this Beast rune Unit's raw resources in that fashion.

Edited February 15, 2023 by Darius West

[radmonger]

Those who follow the vegetarian heresy would say an animals nature implies eating, as its function requires it. You don't need to shovel food into its mouth, it will seek out and acquire it of its own accord.  A malfunctioning animal would be one who failed to do that, endlessly devoured without satiation, or had a level of sentience greatly in excess of that required to perform its function.

Orthodox Mostali would instead say that, ideally, animals would not exist; It's just that currently there are far higher-priority projects. So extermination of all biological life is deferred to the third or fourth Great Repair.

[Joerg]

We know that Isidilian of Dwarf Mine keeps at least two sort of animal husbandry - blind cave oxen, and the human slaves forming the Cannon Cult (and serving as drivers for the Alchemical Transformer). Exploring these humans beneath Dragon Pass might be interesting. But that aside, we know that Dwarf Mine either harvests fodder from the surface, or it grows or cooks up cave oxen fodder and human food beneath the ground. The humans do the gardening, I suppose, but any surface harvest would have had to be done by dwarf servitors (nilmergs, jolanti) as humans were forbidden to walk the surface of the Pass during the Inhuman Occupation. With the exception of the Puppeteer Troupe.

[Erol of Backford]

In order to make Spirt-Battle Magic Spell Potions where do you get the ingredients?

Healing potions are easy, shimmer seems like you need to climb mountain tops, what about blade sharp? Do you need to obtain plant that will cut you like agave or yucca and have needle-sharp leaves.

Quests for alchemist potion ingredients seem obvious or that are commonly traded region to region.

What are the ingredients for a strength potion?