Seven Mothers Initiates in the Alda-Chur confederation

[radmonger]

51 minutes ago, DrGoth said:

If the tribe has 500 SM initiates, than I think a few clans around Alda-Chur would have Seven Mother shrines. 

One thing I am not clear on is whether you can have a shrine to the seven mothers collectively, or if they are only unified at the temple level. Isn't a 7m temple really just a collection of shrines to mutually associated deities, with the typical central god left out?

iirc, Etyries is accepted as both a subcult of Issaries, and one of the seven mothers. If a clan wants to avoid internal religious strife, with two clashing ceremonies and conflict over which to go to, that seems the most likely compromise. The trade routes to the north stay open as armies come and go, and your trader needs to have a stand at the market where the wagons stop.

This of course applies to a baseline orlanthi clan. The telmori, or any other clan where the chieftain isn't expected to be at least an Orlanth initiate, will be different.

[hipsterinspace]

41 minutes ago, radmonger said:

One thing I am not clear on is whether you can have a shrine to the seven mothers collectively, or if they are only unified at the temple level. Isn't a 7m temple really just a collection of shrines to mutually associated deities, with the typical central god left out?

I’d imagine you can, the RQ3 write up has shrines to the Seven Mothers that provide Madness. They seem to worship the Seven Mothers as a collective entity, a composite cult that reflects their deed of putting together the Red Goddess. It’s possible to worship just one of the individual mothers, it’s even possible to transfer initiations from the Seven Mothers cult into to one of the individual cults, but we won’t have rules for that until next year.

41 minutes ago, radmonger said:

iirc, Etyries is accepted as both a subcult of Issaries, and one of the seven mothers. If a clan wants to avoid internal religious strife, with two clashing ceremonies and conflict over which to go to, that seems the most likely compromise. The trade routes to the north stay open as armies come and go, and your trader needs to have a stand at the market where the wagons stop.

Etyries isn’t one of the Seven Mothers, but she is a fellow Lunar cult. She is said to be a daughter of Issaries and is an associate of both. According to Well of Daliath a lot of her cult are dual initiated into Issaries.

Edited April 14, 2023 by hipsterinspace

[Qizilbashwoman]

41 minutes ago, radmonger said:

One thing I am not clear on is whether you can have a shrine to the seven mothers collectively, or if they are only unified at the temple level. Isn't a 7m temple really just a collection of shrines to mutually associated deities, with the typical central god left out?

I believe the Seven Mothers Cult was deliberately engineered as an "entry-level initiation" to Lunar Society. Remember, the Red Goddess is a massively evangelising religion. It isn't like most of the other cults because it is somewhat akin to Christianity as a de novo god and religion whose followers are interested in aggressively proselytising.

And in Glorantha, where your cult teaches you life skills, an entrance path for the new city-based faith of Lunarism is important. The Mothers focus on the basics of indoctrination, the seven virtues of Sedenya, and basic learnin' about what it means to join the Lunar civilisation. For a lot of people, that's all they need, even inside the Empire proper. They aren't capable, interested, or trusted in diving deeply into a specific cult. If they are, they'll probably choose one of the Mothers and be selected by the priests.

[radmonger]

11 minutes ago, hipsterinspace said:

It’s possible to worship just one of the individual mothers, it’s even possible to transfer initiations from the Seven Mothers cult into to one of the individual cults

Yes, but is it possible to establish a shrine to them collectively? A shrine provides a single spell, not 7, and the current writeup doesn't say which it would be. At the very least if would seem hard to distinguish between, say, a Seven Mothers shrine that provided Truesword and a Yanafal Tarnils shrine that did the same.

[metcalph]

41 minutes ago, radmonger said:

One thing I am not clear on is whether you can have a shrine to the seven mothers collectively, or if they are only unified at the temple level. Isn't a 7m temple really just a collection of shrines to mutually associated deities, with the typical central god left out?

I imagine unspecialized shrines (ie to the Seven Mothers as a whole) and specialized shrines (ie a single Seven Mother is so honored) exist.  Unspecialized shrines would teach Reflection, while specialized shrines would teach Regrow Limb (Deezola), Madness (Jakaleel) and Mindblast (Irrippi Ontor).  Yanafal's Truesword would be awesome but it's only available to Chief Priests and higher so wouldn't be taught at a shrine.     

41 minutes ago, radmonger said:

iirc, Etyries is accepted as both a subcult of Issaries, and one of the seven mothers.

She's an associate of the Seven Mothers, not one of them.  

 

[David Scott]

12 minutes ago, radmonger said:

A shrine provides a single spell, not 7, and the current writeup doesn't say which it would be.

The listing of what spell a shrine provides has not been brought over from RQ3, so choose an appropriate one. Personally, I'd say regrow limb would be common.

12 minutes ago, radmonger said:

At the very least if would seem hard to distinguish between, say, a Seven Mothers shrine that provided Truesword and a Yanafal Tarnils shrine that did the same.

Only Chief and High Priests get access to Truesword (and Enchant Iron). As Yanafal has the same spells as Humakt, pick something appropriate (other than Sever Spirit)

[radmonger]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Unspecialized shrines would teach Reflection, while specialized shrines would teach Regrow Limb (Deezola), Madness (Jakaleel) and Mindblast (Irrippi Ontor). 

Reflection makes perfect sense; it was common magic in RQ2, and so would likely have been available to most or all the individual 7 cults, if they ever had a long form write-up.

It also justifies why 7 mothers is a city-based religion; their shrines suck. No clan chief would feel a pull towards establishing a 7M shrine to get access to Reflection. So 7M is  all about city-based temples.

Note that, with a few local exceptions, most of the barbarian belt, from Imther to Tarsh, didn't really know how to city before the lunars showed up. So before Sartar, they never had to deal with a rural population who couldn't be won over by simply demonstrating the inherent advantages of urban living. Sharing specialist temples means your clan doesn't have to dedicate itself to some pacifistic healing god to get access to a full range of healing magic. But the Sartarite clans already had Chalana healers, trained at the nearest city hospital.

[hipsterinspace]

3 hours ago, radmonger said:

It also justifies why 7 mothers is a city-based religion; their shrines suck. No clan chief would feel a pull towards establishing a 7M shrine to get access to Reflection. So 7M is  all about city-based temples.

I don’t think they’d think about it in those terms. They would have a shrine if they had enough initiates around, that’s probably the problem much of the time. In cities there is pressure to convert for the preferential trade, tax breaks, social advantages, and sometimes genuine religious experience. In the countryside there’s probably more pressure to do as your clan and kin do. Some might embrace the advantages of the empire, but I’d imagine people would be more suspicious.

[DrGoth]

Sorry, but I'm still confused.  Let's say we've got a small(ish) clan.  500 initiates.  100 of those initiates are Seven Mothers.  I can't see them all packing off to the city come Sacred Time.  That's really not helping the clan stay as a stable unit. Let's assume the rest of the clan (Lightbringer initiates) is not trying to convert or get rid of them. My take is that they would have a Seven Mothers shrine in the clan lands.  The SM and LB initiates hold separate pantheon specific rituals in sacred time and then come together for something they can do together - which I think would most likely be a round a non-pantheon specific Wyter (ancestor or local spirit).  What this tells me is that those clans with LB linked Wyters are likely the ones with lower than average Seven Mothers. That 500 SM initiates in the countryside for a tribe is not necessarily evenly distributed amongst the clans.  I don't see it as concentrated in a single clan, or even a majority in one or two (remember, these are post 1625 figures). But that means some clans have a sizeable SM minority and the clan will have to have some way of hanging together as a community.  A Wyter they can all relate to is my best guess at the moment.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, DrGoth said:

Sorry, but I'm still confused.  Let's say we've got a small(ish) clan.  500 initiates.  100 of those initiates are Seven Mothers.  I can't see them all packing off to the city come Sacred Time.

I can actually see that. 

1 hour ago, DrGoth said:

That's really not helping the clan stay as a stable unit.

I don't think anyone would really notice as they are wrapped up in their own events (I imagine it's similar to the current Easter / Ramadan / Passover).

1 hour ago, DrGoth said:

Let's assume the rest of the clan (Lightbringer initiates) is not trying to convert or get rid of them. My take is that they would have a Seven Mothers shrine in the clan lands.

If there are 100 of them they can support a shrine and will have a god-talker (roughly 1 magic person per 100 initiates).

1 hour ago, DrGoth said:

The SM and LB initiates hold separate pantheon specific rituals in sacred time and then come together for something they can do together - which I think would most likely be a round a non-pantheon specific Wyter (ancestor or local spirit).  What this tells me is that those clans with LB linked Wyters are likely the ones with lower than average Seven Mothers.

The wyter don't seem pantheon specific. Looking at the wyters of the Colymar clans: Black Spear, Apple grove, a painted stone, a horse, a salmon, a snake, feather cloak, a grapevine, a chariot, a woodpecker, a burial mound, an oak, while their priest/ess is often a specific cult leader, it doesn't matter about the followers (they just have to have the relevant passion). Their holy day is also unlikely to have a sacred time component as they are locally relevant, and will happen at a relevant time.

 

[radmonger]

6 hours ago, DrGoth said:

Sorry, but I'm still confused.  Let's say we've got a small(ish) clan.  500 initiates.  100 of those initiates are Seven Mothers.  I can't see them all packing off to the city come Sacred Time.

Unless the city (or tribal hub) is very close (4 hours travel at absolute most), i'd agree.  Of course, some of the time it is, Sartar is not large, and has magically-built roads.

Otherwise i think it comes down to a conflict, with one of several possible outcomes:

- most of the 7m initiates leave their cult, as per standard 'leaving a cult' rules

- most of the 7m initiates leave the clan, and move to the city. There, they by default continue all their existing religious affiliations, in two temples and paying two tithes. if they later drop one, that counts as 'leaving that cult' as above.

- they hold ceremonies in secret, as orlanth cultists did during the lunar occupation, using sites and Sanctify rituals. This seems relatively unlikely, unless they have a lot  of passive support. 

- some lunar cult is accepted as one of the deities worshiped by the clan, on one particular day of sacred time. On that day, all the initiates, and some of the rest of the clan, worship at the clan shrine to that deity.

- they leave the clan and merge with others in the same situation to found a new one where a lunar deity is accepted as above.

Note that I don't think there is any current widely-accepted mythology about how Orlanth has a loyal lunar thane, or Ernalda a lunar aunt. No doubt it was forgotten during the ages when it was not relevant to anyone's life.

 

[Kloster]

On 4/15/2023 at 4:36 PM, radmonger said:

- some lunar cult is accepted as one of the deities worshiped by the clan, on one particular day of sacred time. On that day, all the initiates, and some of the rest of the clan, worship at the clan shrine to that deity.

As 7M is (collectively) neutral or friendly with most of the cults (Enemy with none, and hostile 'only' with Eurmal, Maran Gor, Odayla, Orlanth, Storm Bull, Waha and Yinkin), this seems a high probability. IIRC, in addition, Humakt has no problem with Yanafal, Etyries is associated with Issaries and there is not too much problem between Irripi Ontor and Lhankor Mhy.

[metcalph]

36 minutes ago, Kloster said:

IIRC, in addition, Humakt has no problem with Yanafal,

Pretty sure Humakt would be hostile to Yanafal what with the business of being kerb-stomped by his devoted warriors at the Battle of the Four Arrows of Light.

36 minutes ago, Kloster said:

Etyries is associated with Issaries and there is not too much problem between Irripi Ontor and Lhankor Mhy.

I think any relationship between Irrippi and Lhankor are best explained by Sayre's Law ("Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter form of politics, because the stakes are so low.")

[Kloster]

27 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Pretty sure Humakt would be hostile to Yanafal what with the business of being kerb-stomped by his devoted warriors at the Battle of the Four Arrows of Light.

I think any relationship between Irrippi and Lhankor are best explained by Sayre's Law ("Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter form of politics, because the stakes are so low.")

According to @Jeff in

, we have:

"Humakt is in general neutral towards most deities, except those that misuse Death or sanctify betrayal. He's friendly only to Orlanth and Ty Kora Tek. 

Humakt views the Red Goddess as an enemy and the Seven Mothers collectively as hostile. But Humakt is neutral towards Yanafal Tarnils - Humakt's opposition to the Red Goddess is not because of Yanafal Tarnils but something else, perhaps historical, perhaps cosmological - likely both."

30 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I think any relationship between Irrippi and Lhankor are best explained by Sayre's Law ("Academic politics is the most vicious and bitter form of politics, because the stakes are so low.")

You wrote earlier that: "They also shared the same temple in New Pavis.  IMO Irrippi and Buserian Sages can worship at the Lhankor Mhy Temples and get rune points replenished.  They just can't sacrifice for rune magics that are alien to Lhankor Mhy (such as IO's Madness) or for rune magic from LM's associated cults. " (on which we agree). If Irrippi can worrship at Lhankor Mhy temples, that does mean they are at least neutral, and most probably friendly.

[radmonger]

On 4/17/2023 at 11:00 AM, Kloster said:

Humakt views the Red Goddess as an enemy and the Seven Mothers collectively as hostile.

The Malani aside, I don't think it is going to be the humakti making that decisions. It's basically going to come down to the clan chief, as advised by their ring, and bearing in mind the first rule of orlanthi leadership:  never make a decision that causes the clan to decide violence against you is a good option.

The default clan chief will be an orlanth rune lord, and so ritually obliged to consider all lunars as intolerable chaos enemies. So a clan that treats lunars as fully initiated citizens will need to be lead by someone like a Barntari or Ernaldan. Or maybe a heroquester, who personally discovered the secret of not hating lunars.

 

Edited April 18, 2023 by radmonger
corrected quote

[Kloster]

@radmonger, you appear to quote me, but that excerpt was from Jeff. I don't know why but my post appears differently in Edge and Firefox.