Battle rule - Guiding Passion Loss

[RandomNumber]

Hi there,

I'm prepping Battle of the Queens for my players and using the various Well of Daliath articles on the subject. 

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/battle-of-the-queens/

AFAICT, a Guiding Passion is likely to be reduced to zero within the space of a typical Battle lasting 6-7 rounds. Could anyone please explain the rationale behind Guiding Passion Loss?

Thanks

[French Desperate WindChild]

thanks for this article I did not notice it before

In my opinion (but don't know if i m right or if there is any rule behind it somewhere)

you start the battle with full energy morale, etc.. and hour after hour, the deaths around you, the risks you take, the wounds you get, or just the nervous and physical fatigue makes you less voluntary to make feats

 

[Martin]

I was also wondering what does the Battle Intensity level indicate and what are the ramifications?

[RandomNumber]

Answering my own question...  White Bull Season 2 episodes 9 and 10 are a big help as is @Lordabdul's summary here :

https://godlearners.com/journal-of-runic-studies-12/#Notes_on_the_Battle_Rules_Preview

Guiding Passion seems to be a proxy for morale and cohesion. The greater it is the more choices you have in the encounter you might face in each round (subject to your leaders Battle roll opposed by Intensity?).  You lose guiding passion from the encounter but also gain some based on your success  or duration of the encounter - the players gain 12 in Round 3 and 3 in round 4.  If you retire to the rear for a round you can recover more morale and cohesion (ie Guiding Passion) based on a Battle roll - in round 2 Kulbrast makes a critical and gains 90 Guiding Passion but the gain is capped at the Passions starting level for the Battle (in this case 75).

It seems like quite a neat dynamic. Looking forward to reading more in the GM guide!

 

[Mordante]

Sorry if this question is abit off topic but where do you find these battle rules?

Edited April 23, 2023 by Mordante

[RandomNumber]

1 hour ago, Mordante said:

Sorry if this question is abit off topic but where do you find these battle rules?

They have not been published. IIRC they will be in the GM’s Guide. I’m piecing them together from;

• Whitebull Season Two, Episodes 9-11 on YouTube and the summary by @Lordabdul also linked above.
• The Well of Daliath article linked above

The approach appears to be based on the Pendragon Book of Battle rules to some extent.

There’s another article somewhere (perhaps on Well of Daliath) from around 2019 with the Order of Battle for Battle of the Queens that is referenced in Armies & Enemies of Dragon Pass - Dalini, 1st & 2nd Furthest Foot, Veterans and Landholder Horse. That appears to have been superseded by the OOB used in White Bull Season Two and the more recent Well of Daliath articles.

I think I have enough to be able to fill in some of the blanks. It would be great to have access to the RQG battle rules themselves but there are understandably higher priorities in the pipeline such as the wonderful Cults books. Of course, if anyone in the know is willing to share some more tidbits, that would be lovely.

[Mordante]

4 hours ago, RandomNumber said:

They have not been published. IIRC they will be in the GM’s Guide. I’m piecing them together from;

• Whitebull Season Two, Episodes 9-11 on YouTube and the summary by @Lordabdul also linked above.
• The Well of Daliath article linked above

The approach appears to be based on the Pendragon Book of Battle rules to some extent.

There’s another article somewhere (perhaps on Well of Daliath) from around 2019 with the Order of Battle for Battle of the Queens that is referenced in Armies & Enemies of Dragon Pass - Dalini, 1st & 2nd Furthest Foot, Veterans and Landholder Horse. That appears to have been superseded by the OOB used in White Bull Season Two and the more recent Well of Daliath articles.

I think I have enough to be able to fill in some of the blanks. It would be great to have access to the RQG battle rules themselves but there are understandably higher priorities in the pipeline such as the wonderful Cults books. Of course, if anyone in the know is willing to share some more tidbits, that would be lovely.

Thanks for your help!

[PhilHibbs]

The immediate problem that I had with trying to implement the battle system from the fragments shown in The White Bull was finding a "guiding passion". There wasn't a passion that all three characters had.

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

There wasn't a passion that all three characters had.

why not use for each of them the most appropriate ? maybe with some malus

I mean let's say it is lunar versus sartarites

 

one lunar has loyalty red emperor 80%, that's fine 80% for the guiding passion

the second has hate sartarites 70%, => 70% for the guiding passion

the third is the second's brother but has no "war" passion. But he has love family 60%. Then I would say a guiding passion like 60-20 = 40%. He doesn't want to be here but there is his brother. Now, if the brother is hurt or killed, some hate sartarite  would appear and change the game

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

There wasn't a passion that all three characters had.

Find the highest relevant passion for one of the characters, and use a Loyalty for the other two to protect/aid the first PC.

[Bren]

On 4/27/2023 at 5:08 PM, jajagappa said:

Find the highest relevant passion for one of the characters, and use a Loyalty for the other two to protect/aid the first PC.

Most of the PCs I see do not have a loyalty to each other, so the highest relevant passion may not have any clear connection.

It's interesting to understand how other campaigns work. Do the PCs in your game all have loyalties to each other? Is that a group loyalty, like to a warband, or do they have a series of loyalties, like Loyalty (PC1) 60%, Loyalty (PC2) 80%, etc?

On 4/27/2023 at 5:00 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

why not use for each of them the most appropriate ? maybe with some malus

I mean let's say it is lunar versus sartarites

 

one lunar has loyalty red emperor 80%, that's fine 80% for the guiding passion

the second has hate sartarites 70%, => 70% for the guiding passion

the third is the second's brother but has no "war" passion. But he has love family 60%. Then I would say a guiding passion like 60-20 = 40%. He doesn't want to be here but there is his brother. Now, if the brother is hurt or killed, some hate sartarite  would appear and change the game

I like this example. This approach seems like it would for the characters in my group.

Edited May 2, 2023 by Bren
Forgot to include the question I meant to ask.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Bren said:

Most of the PCs I see do not have a loyalty to each other

If they've been working together for any length of time, you can just have them add Loyalty (companions) 60%. 

2 hours ago, Bren said:

Do the PCs in your game all have loyalties to each other?

Even if not on a character sheet, I consider there to be an implied Loyalty to each other if not encapsulated under a Loyalty (clan), Love (family), or Loyalty to a common patron - really depends on the composition of the character group. In my Imther game, I've got 2 PCs who are brother and sister and a third from the same clan - together they have an active mercantile venture, so they work closely together. In my Colymar game, the group is led by Harmast, another PC is his loyal bodyguard, and the rest have either a direct association with Harmast or the Colymar tribe/Queen Leika.

2 hours ago, Bren said:

Is that a group loyalty, like to a warband, or do they have a series of loyalties

If there is a clear leader, I'd do it as Loyalty (leader, e.g Harmast) for most and Loyalty (companions) for Harmast in this case. If no defined leader (or simply easier to manage), just do Loyalty (companions or name of warband...).

It's flexible, though - just find something that works for your game.

[Bren]

On 5/2/2023 at 8:52 PM, jajagappa said:

If they've been working together for any length of time, you can just have them add Loyalty (companions) 60%. 

That's a good idea that I will happily steal.  I'll also ask the players to give me their assessment of how loyal their PC is to the leader/group. That way they can possibly have a loyalty that is higher (or lower) than 60%. Much higher or lower and I'd want them to explain/justify why it should be higher.

Quote

Even if not on a character sheet, I consider there to be an implied Loyalty to each other if not encapsulated under a Loyalty (clan), Love (family), or Loyalty to a common patron - really depends on the composition of the character group.

Yes, as has generally been the case in every campaign I've ever played in or run, the players do tend to have their characters act as if they were loyal regardless of any in-universe relationships other than being PCs. One thing I've always liked about the passion/traits system is the ability to capture and track that mechanically.

[Bren]

During last night's session, I pitched the idea of creating a unifying passion for the adventurer group. Their two ideas were to have a loyalty to their nominal leader, the PC who is the Thane of Apple Lane, or  a loyalty to the group or band. The majority of the players favored loyalty to the group. One player then said, “We need a name.” Their choice was “The Heroes of Apple Lane.” The new name is brilliant, as it’s kind of cool, kind of corny, and ties into the long Runequest history of roleplaying in Apple Lane.

I started them all with a loyalty of 60%, per basic rules for starting passions, but I said that anyone justifying a higher or lower passion could do so. The player of the Apprentice Shaman said that in play, her character had been more loyal to the group than to her shaman master. Which is true, she has been absent minded and tardy with fulfilling some of the odd tasks assigned by her master while she has focused on helping the group with their adventures. The player said her character’s loyalty to the group should be higher than her loyalty to the shaman. She has Loyalty (Ditgurat the Shaman) 64%. So, she now has Loyalty (Heroes of Apple Lane) 65%.

One character has already successfully used his Loyalty (Heroes of Apple Lane) for an augment. Thanks again jajagappa for your suggestions and for sharing what you did with group loyalty in your campaign.

[jajagappa]

23 minutes ago, Bren said:

One character has already successfully used his Loyalty (Heroes of Apple Lane) for an augment. Thanks again jajagappa for your suggestions and for sharing what you did with group loyalty in your campaign.

Sounds great! And definitely makes sense for the apprentice shaman to take the Loyalty at 65%.