Cultists and Holy Days in HQ:G

[Targhan]

A word of warning: my understanding of the inner workings of RQ is lacking at best, so there's the possibility that my whole question is wrongly focused. But, here it goes:

 

In RQ, to cast rune magic you need to spend rune points, right? And these points are only replenished at certain holy days, are they?

So, what happens in HQ/QW? Is this bond between the cultist and the temple broken? If I read it right (which I doubt), there is no way you can exhaust your ability to cast rune magic. At least not without your GM making something up to reflect this.

 

If this is the case, how would you reflect this relationship between the cultist, the cult and the expendable nature of rune magic?

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, Targhan said:

So, what happens in HQ/QW? Is this bond between the cultist and the temple broken? If I read it right (which I doubt), there is no way you can exhaust your ability to cast rune magic. At least not without your GM making something up to reflect this.

1) You don't worry about it. 

2) If you want to reflect it, you just bump up the difficulty when using that ability.

But it's also not the type of game where you mechanically focus on points left (aside from maybe Hero Points to give you a bump). In HQ/QW, the question is around relevance of the ability and the difficulty opposing you that you need to overcome.

[Targhan]

Actually, yes, it worries me! 😂

It is something I find particularly interesting in Glorantha. A flavor, if you wish.

Looking for a temple where you can learn this or that spell; the necessity of keeping an eye on your holy days, of knowing which cults are associated to yours so you can go and participate of their celebrations, are, at least for me, the things that make Glorantha stand apart from the typical fantasy setting. Specially in those where you can roam the world completely dettach from your church, other wizards, or a master-of-arms (I'm looking at you, D&D).

I agree with you, simply "translating" rune points into HQ is not a solution. Though, the lack of any rule regulating/reflecting this in HQ, means (again, for me) that, in this particular version of Glorantha, no one has to worry about visiting a temple, or taking this particular issue into consideration when, for example, planning a long trip.

There are certain aspects that I can control from the GM chair. Do you want to open a breakout in your rune reflecting a new spell? Go there, do that, etc. But, and this could be just an rpg philosophy viewpoint, if I bump up a contest I'm making it harder, but not impossible. In the same situation, with RQ, the character just couldn't try it, as they'd lack that particular resource.

A friend, a fellow GM, suggests linking this absence with the community rules and penalizing the community rolls at the end of the year. I'm not sure about this, maybe your community suffers from your neglection, but I want to do this something personal. Something between the character and their beliefs. And, ultimately, something between the player and the rules.

Maybe this is just something that HQ can't manage, or doesn't consider interesting enough (story-wise talking) to manage. I don't know. No one reflects this in their Glorantha?

[soltakss]

9 hours ago, Targhan said:

So, what happens in HQ/QW? Is this bond between the cultist and the temple broken? If I read it right (which I doubt), there is no way you can exhaust your ability to cast rune magic. At least not without your GM making something up to reflect this.

The way I do Rune Magic in QuestWorlds is to have a Keyword with Runespell Breakouts. So, you might have Orlanth as a Keyword and Shield, Teleport, Jump as Breakouts. Your chance of casting magic is your keyword ability plus the breakout add, if applicable. So, Orlanth 20 (Shield, Teleport 10, Jump 10) allows you to cast Shield at 20 and Teleport, or Jump, at 30, or 10M. 

I don't worry about Rune Points in QuestWorlds, as they don't really figure.

[Targhan]

10 hours ago, soltakss said:

I don't worry about Rune Points in QuestWorlds, as they don't really figure.

Hi Simon, I'm aware of your vision of magic in QW, while searching for this topic I found this in rpg.net. It actually kept me wondering if the magic system in HQ is the problem. I don't have an answer for that. Maybe I need to step back and work with the way QW does magic instead of adding anything else.

I'm not trying to replicate rune points in QW. What I want to bring to QW is the relationship between the characters and the cults they worship.

In RQ you have a resource, when it's empty, you can't cast any more rune magic spells, and (if I got it right), you must attend a holy day or equivalent in order to replenish that resource. For me, that situation gives the temple a focus that QW loses.

I don't want to emulate certain mechanics, I want to emulate an aspect of the setting, something that is important for the people living there.

[mfbrandi]

3 hours ago, Targhan said:

In RQ you have a resource, when it's empty, you can't cast any more rune magic spells, and (if I got it right), you must attend a holy day or equivalent in order to replenish that resource. For me, that situation gives the temple a focus that QW loses.

I don't want to emulate certain mechanics, I want to emulate an aspect of the setting, something that is important for the people living there.

Without changing mechanics, there is this from Stan Shinn’s QW cheat sheet:

Quote

• Story Points (SP): You have a story point pool (1 point per PC) and you spend from the pool.
  Pool refreshes when the GM sees fit (usually when sessions start, but perhaps during downtime or other moments).
• Spending SP: You can spend an SP to gain an additional success which depletes it from the pool.

So right away, you can tie SP refresh to performing appropriate religious duties. If that is not hard resource management enough, you can check off rune magical abilities as used, and require an SP to be spent to reuse the ability before next SP refresh.

If that still doesn’t feel right, and you don’t want to increase resistances (per Jajagappa) — because that is still a “soft” barrier to getting things done with the rune magical ability — you can still exploit resistances to put in “hard” barriers: make yourself a table of time since rune magic refresh (which can be SP refresh, but doesn’t have to be) — or number of skipped holy days/SP refreshes — and maximum resistance that can be tackled with rune magic; the longer the character stays away from shul, the smaller the miracles they can perform. Unlike increasing resistance, this will hit characters with high ability scores just as hard: they may normally scoff at resistance 10 because they have a stupid number of masteries, but if resistance 10 now falls outside the resistance range for their rune magic due to slackness in observance, tough.

If nothing above appeals, or you don’t like the — fairly modest, but possibly inappropriate — extra book-keeping, you could try a table of SP in the bank against maximum resistance that can be tackled with rune magic. You don’t have to spend the SP, they just have to be there. SP reflect the favour of the character’s god (so hand them out accordingly).

All these suggestions may be rubbish, or just not to your taste, but maybe they will help you think about how you want to tie spellcasting to religious observance. Have fun!

[Targhan]

1 hour ago, mfbrandi said:

you can still exploit resistances to put in “hard” barriers: make yourself a table of time since rune magic refresh (which can be SP refresh, but doesn’t have to be) — or number of skipped holy days/SP refreshes — and maximum resistance that can be tackled with rune magic

Wow! I didn't have @Stan Shinn's cheat sheet, but now I do! I definitely need to read this. The "hard" barrier approach poses to me as the closest to my intent (that half-baked intent on my head, anyway). I need to read Shinn's rules, and see how each of these scenarios applies to my Glorantha.

Thank you for these ideas!

[jajagappa]

On 6/15/2023 at 3:04 AM, Targhan said:

It actually kept me wondering if the magic system in HQ is the problem. I don't have an answer for that. Maybe I need to step back and work with the way QW does magic instead of adding anything else.

I had no issues with the magic system in HQ - worked very well.

What you should not try to do in HQ is to try turning it into a simulationist game system - it's not built for that and you'll just find it frustrating trying to do so. I initially approached it from a very RQ-centric viewpoint and didn't find it worked. As I got more comfortable with HQ and the narrative style, it just all fit and flowed.

On 6/15/2023 at 3:04 AM, Targhan said:

For me, that situation gives the temple a focus that QW loses.

That's a "forcing" mechanism in RQ. In HQ/QW you need to determine why the temple focus is important to the story, but it's easy to add in - you just start adding penalties per season for not visiting the temple to any roll associated with your cult keyword (-3, -6, -9, -W).

[Targhan]

30 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

I had no issues with the magic system in HQ - worked very well.

I'm not very comfortable with feats, in general, or with the fact that your rune rating decides if you can be an Initiate. But that's a different issue and I think is not one too difficult to solve. The original post from Simon made think about that and the versatility of QW.

 

34 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

That's a "forcing" mechanism in RQ

See? I don't understand why it comes as a simulationist approach. As I see it, RQ emulates, in its own way, the Gloranthan setting. And I'm trying to do the same. I don't care about the specific rule in RQ, but what it reflects. Jajagappa, I'm not saying you're wrong. But I do fail to see why it looks like that.

[jajagappa]

15 minutes ago, Targhan said:

I'm not very comfortable with feats, in general, or with the fact that your rune rating decides if you can be an Initiate. But that's a different issue and I think is not one too difficult to solve.

I completely ignore "feats" and any aspect of rune rating dictating initiate status.

I do pretty much the same as Simon.

You have several Rune Ratings, you attach your Initiate of X to whichever makes sense for you. The Initiate of X acts as a keyword (as do Runes) and you attach abilities to those as breakouts. And that's it! 

And you use those "magic" ability breakouts just like any other ability. 

[jajagappa]

20 minutes ago, Targhan said:

And I'm trying to do the same. I don't care about the specific rule in RQ, but what it reflects.

And that makes sense. As noted above, I'd just add increasing penalties per season to the abilities associated with the Initiate/Rune keywords. And until you get to your temple and renew your connection to the deity, those penalties grow.

[soltakss]

On 6/15/2023 at 8:04 AM, Targhan said:

I'm not trying to replicate rune points in QW. What I want to bring to QW is the relationship between the characters and the cults they worship.

In QuestWorlds the relationship between Adventurer and Cult is gained through Keywords. You can have a Keyword for the Cult and/or Keywords for the Adventurer's runes. I put spells in either/both the Cult Keyword and Rune Keyword, if the spell is in both then the Rune can automatically augment the Cult Keyword in my QuestWorlds.

On 6/15/2023 at 8:04 AM, Targhan said:

In RQ you have a resource, when it's empty, you can't cast any more rune magic spells, and (if I got it right), you must attend a holy day or equivalent in order to replenish that resource. For me, that situation gives the temple a focus that QW loses.

I don't want to emulate certain mechanics, I want to emulate an aspect of the setting, something that is important for the people living there.

To a certain extent Temples are less useful in QuestWorlds. Basically, they are not needed for regaining magic, but they are needed for adding certain Breakouts (Spells) to a Keyword. They also give bonuses when casting cult magic.

For me, as a RuneQuest Player, Temples are only useful:

• For living in, where available
• Regaining Rune Points
• For attending Worship ceremonies (With POW Gain Roll, and to remain an active worshipper)
• Learning cult spells
• Training/Gaining cult skills
• Summoning/Binding cult spirits

Now, we could get all spiritual about Temples being the heart of the culture, and they probably are, but yadda, yadda yadda.

How do we emulate these in QuestWorlds:

• For living in, where available - Still applies
• Regaining Rune Points - Does not apply
• For attending Worship ceremonies (With POW Gain Roll, and to remain an active worshipper) - Still applies for remaining an active worshipper, but not for POW Gain rolls, unless you give a +1 in the Cult Affinity for leading a Worship Ceremony
• Learning cult spells - Still applies
• Training/Gaining cult skills - Still applies
• Summoning/Binding cult spirits - Still applies

So, of the 6 items where Temples are useful, 5 apply to QuestWorlds, so Temples are useful in both systems.

 

 

[Targhan]

23 hours ago, soltakss said:

To a certain extent Temples are less useful in QuestWorlds. Basically, they are not needed for regaining magic, but they are needed for adding certain Breakouts (Spells) to a Keyword. They also give bonuses when casting cult magic.

 

With your (yours and @jajagappa) latest posts I feel confident enought to tackle the "temple issue" in my Glorantha. So this is just for the sake of the argument.

If you don't need a temple to "regain rune points" (and this is a metaphor for "to keep using your rune magic"), the Lunar control over the Air Temple in Pavis should have a different meaning for the orlanthis in Prax, shouldn't it? If you don't need to go anywhere near Pavis (or the Pairing Stones, or the Big Rubble) each time you exhaust your rune magic pool (be it rune points or applying Jajagappa penalties), the resistance against the Lunar would be very different, as life in Prax. Or just wandering Genertela.

For me, the temple serves as a anchor to your region and makes invasions or big movements of people harder, or at least trickier.

 

One last thing, if I didn't do it before, thank you very much to the three of you for your patience and for answering (so kindly) my questions.

[mfbrandi]

29 minutes ago, Targhan said:

If you don't need a temple to … to keep using your rune magic … the Lunar control over the Air Temple in Pavis should have a different meaning

But that is part of the joy of it, no? If Glorantha were guaranteed to behave the same under QW, 13th Age, and the various RQs, one would just pick the one that is easiest to run … or cheapest … or had most player buy-in … or whatever.

Of course, tweaking rules to take control of how your Glorantha plays is fun, too. 😉

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, Targhan said:

If you don't need a temple to "regain rune points" (and this is a metaphor for "to keep using your rune magic"), the Lunar control over the Air Temple in Pavis should have a different meaning for the orlanthis in Prax, shouldn't it? If you don't need to go anywhere near Pavis (or the Pairing Stones, or the Big Rubble) each time you exhaust your rune magic pool (be it rune points or applying Jajagappa penalties), the resistance against the Lunar would be very different, as life in Prax. Or just wandering Genertela.

That becomes a rather mechanical view of worship though. I go only to replenish rune points or avoid penalties, etc. You go to your temple to make offerings of your self to your god. Some are more devoted to their god than others, some more loyal to a temple than others, but your sacrifices and offerings help renew the god. So if the Lunars have closed the Pavis Air temple, how will Orlanth receive your offerings? 

[soltakss]

7 hours ago, Targhan said:

If you don't need a temple to "regain rune points" (and this is a metaphor for "to keep using your rune magic"), the Lunar control over the Air Temple in Pavis should have a different meaning for the orlanthis in Prax, shouldn't it?

Not really, you still have to go to the temple to remain a worshipper in good standing with the cult. If not then you lapse and can lose access to casting magic.

 

[Mark Mohrfield]

A relatively easy way to implement this sort of thing in HeroQuest/Questworlds would be to use the rules for one-use magic that appear in HeroQuest 2.0 on page 112 and on Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes on page 92, if you have either of those books. You might want to make the resulting magic more than one-use, of course.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Mark Mohrfield

[JonL]

A key thing about QuestWorlds is that you don't need to mechanize fictional rules or dynamics if you don't want to. Nameless Streets was a complete Urban Fantasy setting that had almost no game mechanics relating to the supernatural. Rather, it described magic, angels, vampires, etc. in mostly in-fiction contexts. GMs & Players were then expected to frame contests and outcomes informed by that fictional declaration of credibility.

If one wishes to run a Glorantha game wherein participation in worship and/or sacrifice is necessary as preparation to embody your gods or heroes within Time and thereby perform more powerful magic, you just say that. If they haven't had a chance to do so since the last time they worked a major effect, it isn't credible for them to do another until they can replenish their connection to their god. I think the assumed posture of HQG is that PCs are presumably taking care of such business out-of-scene or in down-time between adventures, as it's not a game that centers resource-management generally. Nonetheless, you can decide that regular temple visits and cult participation are going to be more central to your particular story, and just follow the fiction accordingly.

Edited June 19, 2023 by JonL

[JonL]

Something that the HQ2/G books frequently struggle with is giving people enough fictional guidance to work out just where the line is between Devotee exclusive feats, Initiate-level magic, and "anyone can do it" augmenting with your rune (that may in fact also be doing folk/craft/common/spirit/battle magic in-fiction). Similarly, there is little guidance for what's considered normal for magnitude, duration, distance, etc. for magic at each tier, and what would require special rituals, supporters, sacrifices, etc. The Feats at least provide a bit of a ceiling for Initiate magic, but they can be a bit all over the place too. There were some more formal guidelines for such in HQ1, and one can of course look to RQ for some things, but neither are a great fit.

 

If you're going to make worship empowering magic more prominent in play, put some more thought into where those tier transitions are going to fall in your game, and make sure that the players share that understanding.

Edited June 20, 2023 by JonL

[John Biles]

It seems to me that one easy way to add in the importance of temple worship into Heroquest, etc without adding new kinds of fiddly bits or just trying to simulate Runequest is to establish that regular temple worship gives augments to appropriate magical abilities.

So if you miss a holy day, that ability drops back to base level (or maybe even has a penalty) due to your not keeping up your relationship with the gods or spirits or not doing enough study time for your sorcery, etc.

This gives the Lunars an edge during the Occupation of Sartar as they run around fat with power while rebels have it harder.

 

[Targhan]

On 6/18/2023 at 11:37 AM, mfbrandi said:

Of course, tweaking rules to take control of how your Glorantha plays is fun, too. 😉

Yes! But sometimes I feel I'm missing something, be it from the setting, or from the rules. I'm not as confident with HQ:G as I'd like to be.

 

On 6/18/2023 at 1:25 PM, jajagappa said:

So if the Lunars have closed the Pavis Air temple, how will Orlanth receive your offerings? 

For me, it's precisely this what makes the orlanthi situation in Prax so dramatic. They still run the yearly ritual to fight Daga (at the Pairing Stones, if I got it right), but under Lunar supervision! This realization (according to my interpretation, of course) has been a chokepoint for me. It's for this reason that I felt the necessity to stablish the way HQ behaves when you are kept apart from your temple, as much as the rune representation or the charms.

 

On 6/18/2023 at 6:27 PM, soltakss said:

If not then you lapse and can lose access to casting magic.

That's what I've been saying all along. If you're kicking lunars asses and taking names all over Prax maybe you're not in the mood to meet Faltikus in order to "restore your connection".

 

On 6/18/2023 at 9:02 PM, Mark Mohrfield said:

use the rules for one-use magic

Is this elegant or what? I'd totally forgot that rule! I know I've read it but, there it went! Thanks!

 

9 hours ago, JonL said:

Nonetheless, you can decide that regular temple visits and cult participation are going to be more central to your particular story, and just follow the fiction accordingly.

Most of the answers come back to this. Obviously, I need to give this a try!

8 hours ago, JonL said:

Similarly, there is little guidance for what's considered normal for magnitude, duration, distance, etc. for magic at each tier, and what would require special rituals, supporters, sacrifices, etc.

And this is what I miss the most from the rules. It always make me feel at disadvantage with RQ players. And taking Glorantha to new players? Yikes.

8 hours ago, JonL said:

If you're going to make worship empowering magic more prominent in play, put some more thought into where those tier transitions are going to fall in your game, and make sure that the players share that understanding.

Thanks for the advice! I'll keep an eye on this!

 

3 hours ago, John Biles said:

establish that regular temple worship gives augments to appropriate magical abilities

Actually the Air Temple is open for holy days! My issue is with day-to-day worshipping. Those adventurers sneaking into the Big Rubble, thwarting Sor-Eel plans and then... going to Faltikus to rest? I don't know. And, in my opinion, the typical player doesn't care that much about losing a bonus as it does for having a penalty. Even if we're talking of a high bonus.

 

In a side note, I'm learning much about how HQ/QW works with this thread. Thanks!

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, Targhan said:

But sometimes I feel I'm missing something, be it from the setting, or from the rules. I'm not as confident with HQ:G as I'd like to be.

We all feel that way, but you clearly do have a vision of how your Glorantha works, so it is OK to be more confident.

(I was going to elaborate, but everything I tried just sounded ridiculously pompous — even more so than is normal for me! — so that will have to do.)

[Targhan]

9 minutes ago, mfbrandi said:

We all feel that way, but you clearly do have a vision of how your Glorantha works, so it is OK to be more confident.

(I was going to elaborate, but everything I tried just sounded ridiculously pompous — even more so than is normal for me! — so that will have to do.)

I would have love to read it! Really, it's my biggest issue with Glorantha. It's horrible to read someone posting if praxians do this or pelorians do that and wonder "where in Torvald's name did he read that!?"

[mfbrandi]

26 minutes ago, Targhan said:

It's horrible to read someone posting if praxians do this or pelorians do that and wonder "where in Torvald's name did he read that!?"

Well, I wouldn’t worry about them. For the most part, they are either:

• just making it up
• digging up some obscure bit of lore you can safely ignore

Sure, it is fun to dig up or make up stuff, but not if it is used to manacle other people. (I try to give references, but if someone gives a reference, that is not to say you have to do things their way.)

No, what I was going to say was, don’t let the rules bog you down. All you really need is:

• No, that will never work — no dice required
• Yes, that will work — no dice required
• Maybe that will work — the resistance is x

Slowly add in any bells and whistles as and when you and your players feel the need for them. People publishing games probably feel a push to include complexity — to make it seem like they are giving value for money — but as a user, do you want to be grappling with complex rules and a complex setting at the same time? Glorantha has a lot of setting, but treat it lightly: the myths are contradictory and your informants are untrustworthy Gloranthans, right?

So you could make your own cut-down version of Stan Shinn’s onesheet to share with your players, then maybe add to it as/if needed:

• more bells and whistles from the rules as written
• typical resistances (i.e. suggestive but non-binding), as established in play
• precedents (e.g. Orlanth takes Windsday afternoon off, so don’t ask for divine intervention then), as established in play

See, I told you: pretentious nonsense. Never trust a hippy, a cockney, or a Chaos cultist — so never, never, never pay any attention to me!

Spoiler

Touchstones for me of rules simplicity are the original free version of Graham Walmsley’s Cthulhu Dark (pretty much one page) and Tom Mouat’s discussion of how to run matrix games (which might seem like it has come from another planet, but he is Major Tom, after all).

[Targhan]

Wow! I mean, thanks @mfbrandi! Suddenly I have lots of interesting things to read!

I come from the "complexity" side of the hobby (GURPS, D&D, Pathfinder etc.) but I'd like to think that my games nowadays are about stories, not rulings. Actually, it was the OSR, kitbashing and giving a prominent role to the world instead of the rules defining that world what brought me here to HQ (and PDQ, FU and other similar systems). To be honest, HQ "ruined" other systems for me. I'm uncapable of wasting two hours of my life just to know if the four PC's won the battle against the three goblins and the ogre. Please, frame the contest, roll and that's that.

But the very same path that lead to narrative games took my through the "you can improvise anything" valley and the rolling hills of "don't prep plots, prep situations" (actual address of my dear Justin Alexander). And I find really difficult to bring these tools to the table. This is where my confidence dissapears. It's really hard for me to set the limits of the capabilities of the characters, the communities, or the runes! (don't make me talk about the runes! a blessing and a curse!) That aside, I need to explain the different magic systems (in-game, not the rules), the justice, the clans, etc.

It's exhausting. Sometimes, it's too demanding, and I find that HQ:G doesn't light your backpack at all. HQ it's another set of skills they need to learn! Because, and this you already noticed, but I don't speak English and none of my players (or possible players) are in the mood to read anything in a different language. So, passing around the table the Guide or sharing an article from Tradetalk, etc., are completely out of the question. I need to digest whatever I need my players to know and then do my best to put it in the most entertaining words. Entertaining enough to pique someone's curiosity into the glorious "do you have something written? I wouldn't mind reading about this, even if it's in English." that would make any previous effort worthy.

Sorry for the rant. One thing took to another and... 😅

Well, I have a lot to read! Thanks again for being so patient with me, even when I can't make myself clear most of the time.