Difficult and Easy rolls

[Eric L. Webb]

Do Difficult and Easy skill rolls decrease or increase a characters chance to score a crit or special success? Ive always assumed they did but where in the BRP rules is this discussed?

[Guest Vile Traveller]

Interesting - I can't find an explicit explanation, either. Going by the "Terms Used in Basic Roleplaying" in Chapter 1, difficulty affects the skill chance, which is also what criticals, etc. are based on. So the implication is that, yes, cits and such do vary with difficulty.

Even without this, I think it's clear that that would be the only logical approach.

[soltakss]

That's how I've always played it.

I take into account all modifiers, bonuses and penalties, whether they are situational. from spells, from abilities or whatever, that gives me a skill and the Special/Critical/Fumble chances come from that calculated skill. Anything else becomes far too complicated to work out.

The only sticking point might be when to apply the Difficult/Easy modifier. If you have a skill of 50% and have situational modifiers of +30% and spell modifiers of +20% and the roll is Easy, do you:

(a) Use (50 + 30 + 20) x 2 = 200%

( Use (50 + 30) x 2 + 20 = 180%

© Use 50 x 2 + 30 + 20 = 150%

Similarly, if the roll is Difficult, do you:

(a) Use (50 + 30 + 20) / 2 = 50%

( Use (50 + 30) / 2 + 20 = 60%

© Use 50 / 2 + 30 + 20 = 75%

I'm sure it says in the rules but I can't be bothered to have a look (and I promised my wife I'd only be on the computer for 5 minutes)

[Gollum]

I can't be absolutely sure (I'm french and I sometimes misunderstand English texts) but rules sounds to answer clearly to your questions...

• Page 173: "The chance of fumbling an action roll equals 5% (1/20th) of the chance of failure." So, it is obviously after every bonuses, penalties and skill modifications have been done...
  
• Page 175: "Special Success (roll < or equal to 20% of target) / Critical Success (roll < or equal to 5% of target)". The target number is the modified skill, not the skill as written on the character sheet.
  
• Page 177: "Circumstantial modifiers should be applied after the base chance has already been adjusted based upon action difficulty, as described above." So, to my mind, the answers are always (a) in your examples above. Note that, here again, the rules are made to simplify things: "As a rule of thumb, if circumstantial modifiers would modify a base chance up or down by more than 30%, shift the difficulty of the roll up or down one level instead." Which means that an easy action with + 30 and + 20 bonuses just becomes an automatic action and that a difficult action with + 30 and + 20 bonuses just becomes an average action without bonus. Which gives exactly the same result than those given by the calculation, actually.
  

[silent_bob]

Do Difficult and Easy skill rolls decrease or increase a characters chance to score a crit or special success? Ive always assumed they did but where in the BRP rules is this discussed?

The fumble/special/critical chances are figured after all modifiers are accounted for.

[Guest Vile Traveller]

The fumble/special/critical chances are figured after all modifiers are accounted for.

Do you know where in the rules it says that?

[Gollum]

Pages 173 to 175, as written in my previous reply.

This is not explicitly written but the terms used ("chance of failure", "target") don't let any doubt. The chance of failure is the chance of failure of the specific action, not in general, and the target number is the number under what you roll, i.e. the modified skill, not the base skill.

The problem comes from the critical and fumble table (page 172), which says "Base Chance" rather than "Modified Chance". In my humble opinion, it is just a typo.

[bardic design]

The chance is increased/decreased on the modifiers. An example is given in the Spot rules on page 215 for Backstabs and Helpless Opponents. The "chance to attack is Easy for this one attack... No additional damage is done by such an attack - the heightened chance at inflicting a special or critical success and the lowered chance of avoiding the attack is advantage enough." So if the special/critical chance wasn't increased commensurately to the modifier, there really would be no advantage to backstabbing or to attacking helpless opponents.

[Jason D]

Do Difficult and Easy skill rolls decrease or increase a characters chance to score a crit or special success?

Yes, they do.

[Guest Vile Traveller]

Pages 173 to 175, as written in my previous reply.

Oops, missed your reply before silent_bob's, there. Anyway, good to have it confirmed from the horse's mouth.

Er, no offence, Jason!

[silent_bob]

Do you know where in the rules it says that?

Look at the spot rule for Backstabs and Helpless Opponents on page 215:

"If in the midst of hand-to-hand combat, your character

is able to launch an attack at the unprotected back of a

target, the chance to attack is Easy for this one attack.

If the target succeeds in a Difficult Listen or Sense roll,

he or she can make a Difficult Dodge or parry attempt,

and only if he or she has any remaining opportunities

for defense. No additional damage is done by such an

attack—the heightened chance at inflicting a special or

critical success and the lowered chance of avoiding the

attack is advantage enough. "

Furthermore, it is the interpretation that makes the most sense.

[Simlasa]

[*]Page 177: "Circumstantial modifiers should be applied after the base chance has already been adjusted based upon action difficulty, as described above." So, to my mind, the answers are always (a) in your examples above.

To me that pg 177 quote reads as if modifiers come in AFTER the base skill is adjusted for difficulty... as in Soltakss's option "© Use 50 x 2 + 30 + 20 = 150%"... rather than the 200% in option (a).

With critical/special/fumble being calculated off the '150%'

Though, like you point out... in that particular example the bonuses would get dropped and the action would just become automatic.

[Gollum]

To me that pg 177 quote reads as if modifiers come in AFTER the base skill is adjusted for difficulty... as in Soltakss's option "© Use 50 x 2 + 30 + 20 = 150%"... rather than the 200% in option (a).

With critical/special/fumble being calculated off the '150%'

Though, like you point out... in that particular example the bonuses would get dropped and the action would just become automatic.

Yes. You are perfectly right. I wrote my reply too quickly.

[bardic design]

One question I thought of in terms of the Critical and Special Success when the skill is modified is in combat. When you use the multiple attack option, say you have a skill of 120% and you divide it into two 60s. Would the Critical and Special Success be rated at the 60s then?

[Eric L. Webb]

I would say that it would, because you are striking twice and faster and therefore wouldnt be as likelly to strike a critical hit. if you took your time and aimed a precise 120% single blow you would be more likely to strike a crit or special.

[Jason D]

One question I thought of in terms of the Critical and Special Success when the skill is modified is in combat. When you use the multiple attack option, say you have a skill of 120% and you divide it into two 60s. Would the Critical and Special Success be rated at the 60s then?

Yes. The critical and special success chances are always based on the final, modified skill chance you're rolling against. So an Easy skill attempt has double the crit/special chance. Dividing a skill into two for multiple actions lowers the crit/special chance to the divided totals.

[Jegergryte]

I have a related question.

If, lets say your skill level with swords is 90%, you pick up a broadsword with a base chance of 15, your total skill then becomes 105%, does this then enable you to perform two attacks?

[wbcreighton]

I don't think you would add the Base chance of a broadsword to your Melee - Swords skill. The base skill is the chance to hit that anyone would have if they picked up the broadsword. Your chance to hit with a Broadsword would be 90% in your example. In a system like RQ2 you would have a different skill % for each different type of sword. There was no broad skill like Melee - Swords.

[Jegergryte]

Hohum! you certain about his? this will bring tears to my players eyes, alas so be it… I was quite certain that the base chance of weapons, like the base level for a series of skills, was added on top of developed skill, or used as base… if the base chance of the weapon would be 15%, those 15% can't disappear if I gain experience while using it… that would mean that my skill in a weapon with a base chance of 15% can suddenly become 5% if the melee sword skill was not previously developed… now if I developed melee swords based on using a broadsword with a 15% base, then picking up a sword later with a lower or higher base chance, this should perhaps be significant no?

Actually looking at page 258 in the BGB it seems that my example above was a bit off, but still not wrong. The example in BGB bases itself in a skill developed for broad sword skill, then using a shortsword the skill is modified +5% (not really, even though the example in BGB says the shortsword has a base chance of 20% it is listed as having a 15% base chance) … to simplify, or complicate, this then, one could argue that skills should be based in no particular weapon, and have the skill be modified after what weapon one uses no? I know no sword (as far as I have seen) has a base chance of 0 … but still, it makes sense to me at least.. what BGB calls a "more granular system" … ?

If I tweak my previous example to include a superior quality sword with a 15% quality bonus instead (now ignoring my rant about base chances), at least this will increase my sword skill of 90% to 105%, would that allow me to perform multiple attacks?

Edited August 12, 2011 by Jegergryte
issues

[Jegergryte]

I mean, if I create a character with a great sword as his melee weapon (base chance at 5%), to get the 90% max (playing at heroic power level) I must spend more of my professional skill points than if I create one with a broadsword (base chance of 15%)…

Now of course one could say this is because of *cough* game balance; lower base chance for higher damage, but why then does bastard sword and katana have different base chance and identical damage…

Now if base chance is only for people with no developed skill, at what percentage does the skill start at if learned? and does it not count towards your skill?

Edited August 12, 2011 by Jegergryte
addendum

[wbcreighton]

So, I could be wrong My experience is more from RQ where there is no broad category skill. Each weapon has to be learned separately. So I guess a read of this section would be helpful. Maybe someone else might be able to weigh in.

[SDLeary]

So, I could be wrong My experience is more from RQ where there is no broad category skill. Each weapon has to be learned separately. So I guess a read of this section would be helpful. Maybe someone else might be able to weigh in.

Which RQ? In ahRQ3, you did have broad skill categories. 1-H Sword skill would allow you to use a broadsword, or a longsword with a single hand.

In general, Cultural Base replaces the base chance listed in the tables for starting skill. Thus, if your culture used 2-H Flails as one of its cultural weapons, its base might be 25% and skill would advance from there. You would NOT get to add the cultural base into the chance of success again as its already there as the increased basic chance to use the item. You WOULD get to add your skill category modifier if using them.

SDLeary

[soltakss]

I mean, if I create a character with a great sword as his melee weapon (base chance at 5%), to get the 90% max (playing at heroic power level) I must spend more of my professional skill points than if I create one with a broadsword (base chance of 15%)…

That's right.

The reasoning is that Broadsword is eaiser to use than Greatsword, so for the same amount of training and experience, the Broadsword skill will be higher.

Now of course one could say this is because of *cough* game balance; lower base chance for higher damage, but why then does bastard sword and katana have different base chance and identical damage…

Because the one is more technical to use and hence more difficult, probably. Damage doesn't come into it.

It has nothing to do with Game Balance. Rather, it is to do with the relative difficulties of the weapon.

If I statted up a weapon with a handle and three very long chains with balls on the end, then it would have a Base skill of 5%, as it would be difficult to use. Hitting someone with a stick, however, is really easy so would have a higher Base skill. With the same amount of training, the person with the stick would have a higher skill.

Now if base chance is only for people with no developed skill, at what percentage does the skill start at if learned? and does it not count towards your skill?

It depends what you mean by "no developed skill".

If I have never seen or used a weapon, then my skill would be the Base Skill of the weapon, which would be reflected in how easy or difficult that weapon should be to use.

If it is a skill that I have never seen, heard of or ever had any kniowledge of, then my Base Skill would be 0%. For example, a Paleolithic caveman would have a Pilot Rocketship skill of 0%.

[soltakss]

Hohum! you certain about his? this will bring tears to my players eyes, alas so be it… I was quite certain that the base chance of weapons, like the base level for a series of skills, was added on top of developed skill, or used as base… if the base chance of the weapon would be 15%, those 15% can't disappear if I gain experience while using it… that would mean that my skill in a weapon with a base chance of 15% can suddenly become 5% if the melee sword skill was not previously developed… now if I developed melee swords based on using a broadsword with a 15% base, then picking up a sword later with a lower or higher base chance, this should perhaps be significant no?

Some people split the Base Chance from the skill, but that has all sorts of complications that make it harder to use, in my opinion. If you store the Base Chance and Skill separately, then picking up a sword with a better base will increase your skill.

If I tweak my previous example to include a superior quality sword with a 15% quality bonus instead (now ignoring my rant about base chances), at least this will increase my sword skill of 90% to 105%, would that allow me to perform multiple attacks?

Yes.

[Jegergryte]

All good points. Thanks for the input and answers, sorted out some issues.

I take it then that, if I go for splitting base chance from skill, having 90% skill level and using a weapon with 15% base chance (including the complications this entails) would allow for multiple attacks.

Thanks guys!