Dwarven U-Boat Bunker & Vadeli Contraband Competition

[Erol of Backford]

Maybe there should be a Vadeli Contraband competition like the old Plunder Competition?

GtG p.528 The Vadeli sell more than goods and slaves to any who pays the price; they also sell secrets, long-forgotten or forbidden spells, and even copies of dwarven devices stolen by Vadeli.

There are a lot of plot hooks here.

• Dwarves hire PC's to recover secrets, fire arms, cannons, even dwarves? The crazy dwarf from Broken Tree Inn comes to mind, go get him and bring him back or terminate him... no not the same dwarf but one who was taken.
• Dwarven concrete/stone/whatever ships come to port and are searching for something. What do they want and why? TotRM 10 p.18
• There is a naval skirmish between Vadeli and Dwarven ships. All sink and the PC's on their humble little trade vessel are ready to jump in an "salvage" but some aquatic race is there first or some dwarves and Vadeli has skin of life and are repairing their vessels underwater?
• The dwarves have frog helmets?
• The dwarves have turtle ships that actually are submersible and can surface under other vessels 
• There is a hidden dwarven submarine base on say the island of Lukae and the Vadeli find it but its guarded by Jolanti who guard the entrance as well.
• Curious where the nearest dwarven submarine base is similar to U-Boats in WW2 is located?
• Is the a water tunnel to get their ships from their fortress to the island interior like in Vis, Croatia?
• Vadeli, Wolf Pirate and Dwarven ships have a 3-way water bone brawl who wins? 
• Is there a dwarven equivalent to Fort Drum in some harbor with big guns? Were these plans stolen by the Vadeli? Is the fort connected to a dwarven stronghold under water, underground?
• Do dragon ships attack the dwarven fort or submarine base?
• Do the dwarves have 62 or more warships? (look close at USS NJ in background)
• How is Leonardo involved with all this?
• Why do the dwarves want to be a seapower anyway if at all besides those on Curustus?
• Curustus seems far away to be coming to Wenelia but who knows what reason might draw them via ship there?

     

[JRE]

Dwarves in Genertela seem uninterested in sea power and ships, but you can be sure they do not forgive or forget the Vadeli.

So I would have any open Vadeli Dwarf conflict be in Jrustela and Western Pamaltela, Jorkar's and Dashomo's Seas. I suspect it is so dangerous to others than even Wolf pirates without Harrek tend to avoid the area.

You can justify almost anything with dwarves, though the Slontos dwarves do not appear to use gunpowder artillery in their concrete ships. Not that they are really needed when you have giant explosive harpoons and repeating ballistas. Probably it is to keep the cannon secret out of others hands.

If you want dwarven ships in Wenelia, the best choice is usually the simplest. They are pursuing a Vadeli ship that is fleeing with some secret, blueprint or object they really want to recover. 

Dwarves usually prefer a lower profile than Mount Drum, except in areas they fully control, but there is something similar in Magasta's Pool, though larger, Iron City (not very imaginative, I know, but nobody knows its dwarven name). They have what is probably a godkiller weapon, though I am not sure if it is to shoot something coming out of the pool, or something trying to get in. I suspect even a three mile long iron bolt will not help against an iceberg hundreds of miles long. 

[mfbrandi]

2 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

some dwarves … [have] skin of life and are repairing their vessels underwater

But surely air is some newfangled thing — let into the Weltmaschine when Umath broke it — and not even a cheap, disposable Mostali device like a dwarf would rely on it for correct functioning. Ask rather whether the dwarves would short out or rust — but the Mostali have had plenty of time to devise workarounds for water.

I wonder whether the Mostali regard stone as an older element than water and earth as broken stone corrupted by Grower.

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, JRE said:

Dwarves in Genertela seem uninterested in sea power and ships, but you can be sure they do not forgive or forget the Vadeli.

Unfortunately the Vadeli have special magic which makes them invisible to Dwarven revenge.  Moreover the Gods War has seen several collaborations between the Mostali and the Vadeli against other Malkioni (and that was *after* the Vadeli stole from the dwarves and caused them to mistrust all humans).

 

[Darius West]

6 hours ago, metcalph said:

Unfortunately the Vadeli have special magic which makes them invisible to Dwarven revenge.  Moreover the Gods War has seen several collaborations between the Mostali and the Vadeli against other Malkioni (and that was *after* the Vadeli stole from the dwarves and caused them to mistrust all humans).

 

The Vadeli are very good at "hacking" the Mostali mindset.

[Darius West]

8 hours ago, JRE said:

Dwarves in Genertela seem uninterested in sea power and ships, but you can be sure they do not forgive or forget the Vadeli.

On the contrary, the Vadeli and the Mostali are allies.  This is because the Vadeli are very good at manipulating the Mostali, due to the latter being too straightforward, logical and honest.  As to Dwarves being uninterested in sea power, they do have concrete hulled paddleships from memory.

[JRE]

I want to remark that I said Dwarves in Genertela. In other parts of Glorantha they of course use ships. But as most people are gaming in a small part of Genertela, that does not help much, in the same way that the fact the dwarves could probably crush the Wolf Pirates if Harrek is not present does not matter because they are focused in their own thing. And being manipulated does not mean you are allies, it is that the others can predict how you will react, and set things up so your actions are what they want. But that still means a Vadeli ship in Jorkar's Sea is at high risk if they meet a dwarven ship, as would be any other ship. And the Vadeli are actively challenging the dwarves by sailing in Jrustela, Jorkar's and Dashomo Seas.

Dwarves are very pragmatic, and they think they understand better the immortal humans than the mortal ones (and it is likely they are right), so of course they prefer dealing with known groups, whether they are Vadeli, Brithini or Waertagi. They will have their vengeance, but they are willing to wait if there is a benefit now.

[Erol of Backford]

3 hours ago, Darius West said:

they do have concrete hulled paddleships from memory

TofRM 10 - The turrets and merlons are a bit weird to me on the ship. I'd expect turtle ships or monitors so they couldn't be boarded as easily?

  

[g33k]

4 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

TofRM 10 - The turrets and merlons are a bit weird to me on the ship...

  

But "a bit weird" (or a lot weird) is very on-brand for Mostali.
Unless your point is that the pictured ship is not "a lot weird," and therefore insufficiently Gloranthan?

[metcalph]

8 hours ago, JRE said:

But as most people are gaming in a small part of Genertela, that does not help much, in the same way that the fact the dwarves could probably crush the Wolf Pirates if Harrek is not present does not matter because they are focused in their own thing. And being manipulated does not mean you are allies, it is that the others can predict how you will react, and set things up so your actions are what they want. But that still means a Vadeli ship in Jorkar's Sea is at high risk if they meet a dwarven ship, as would be any other ship. And the Vadeli are actively challenging the dwarves by sailing in Jrustela, Jorkar's and Dashomo Seas.

 

But the Vadeli actually ally with the Mostali in the Hero Wars (Guide p502, sidebar).

 

[Sir_Godspeed]

5 hours ago, Erol of Backford said:

TofRM 10 - The turrets and merlons are a bit weird to me on the ship. I'd expect turtle ships or monitors so they couldn't be boarded as easily?

  

It's just one artistic interpretation, I wouldn't hold it as gospel.

[Darius West]

On 7/14/2023 at 5:33 AM, Erol of Backford said:

TofRM 10 - The turrets and merlons are a bit weird to me on the ship. I'd expect turtle ships or monitors so they couldn't be boarded as easily?

  

On the contrary, having a ship that is basically a floating fortress is very much in keeping with a Mostali mindset.  A failure in design is well within keeping for a style of warfare the Mostali are actually very inexpert at.

[Manunancy]

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

On the contrary, having a ship that is basically a floating fortress is very much in keeping with a Mostali mindset.  A failure in design is well within keeping for a style of warfare the Mostali are actually very inexpert at.

My grip with that picture is the dissonance with the mix of a hull form that's very 19th century steamerish and a medieval superstructure. I've seen another illustration with a far more boxy hull that made it's castle-like superstructure (big squat rectangular tower with corner turrets) look far more appropriate. And fits with the dwarves being les skilled at naval architecture than plain old land architecture.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Manunancy

[Erol of Backford]

8 hours ago, Darius West said:

On the contrary, having a ship that is basically a floating fortress is very much in keeping with a Mostali mindset.  A failure in design is well within keeping for a style of warfare the Mostali are actually very inexpert at.

Likely true but I like dwarves to more creative somehow.

The Dwarves land at Sklar and meet with a marine architect from Backford who has several commissions for private yachts being built there... he is then commissioned to improve belt armor and its angle it which shifts to something clunky and Medieval looking to a more aesthetically pleasing turtle or monitor ship... lol.

Edited July 15, 2023 by Erol of Backford

[Joerg]

On 7/13/2023 at 9:33 PM, Erol of Backford said:

TofRM 10 - The turrets and merlons are a bit weird to me on the ship. I'd expect turtle ships or monitors so they couldn't be boarded as easily?

  

Those turtle galleys are a Jrusteli model, with a Greek Fire syphon as their main armament rather than guns. Iron Fort might have some wrecks from the arrival of the Closing.

[Erol of Backford]

8 hours ago, Joerg said:

Those turtle galleys are a Jrusteli model

Nay it blasphemous!

[Darius West]

On 7/15/2023 at 7:21 PM, Manunancy said:

My grip with that picture is the dissonance with the mix of a hull form that's very 19th century steamerish and a medieval superstructure. I've seen another illustration with a far more boxy hull that made it's castle-like superstructure (big squat rectangular tower with corner turrets) look far more appropriate. And fits with the dwarves being les skilled at naval architecture than plain old land architecture.

I agree with you on the issue of boxiness.  I mean, concrete Liberty Ships are a great idea for Mostali and I tipped my hat when I first saw this, but the ship's hull is too sleek and modern, I agree.  It should perhaps look more like an LCI from WW2, complete with drawbridge and portcullis at the front.

On 7/16/2023 at 1:21 AM, Erol of Backford said:

Likely true but I like dwarves to more creative somehow.

Actually I really like them to be making design mistakes, and being very technical, but being so practical that they become impractical.  You know, the way some engineers forget that their perfect design also needs to have an end user factored in...

On 7/16/2023 at 1:21 AM, Erol of Backford said:

The Dwarves land at Sklar and meet with a marine architect from Backford who has several commissions for private yachts being built there... he is then commissioned to improve belt armor and its angle it which shifts to something clunky and Medieval looking to a more aesthetically pleasing turtle or monitor ship... lol.

Unequivocally having armored upper decks so as to avoid hand to hand conflict is the more practical option.  I think the mostali reasoning was something closer to:

Proposition: Ship travels efficiently on water.  Flaw:  Ship may be captured.  Correction: Make ship impregnable.  Query: What surface structure is most impregnable? Answer: Castle.  Therefore: Combine Ship + Castle.  Run Complete. Execute.

 

 

[Erol of Backford]

13 hours ago, Darius West said:

Proposition: Ship travels efficiently on water.  Flaw:  Ship may be captured.  Correction: Make ship impregnable.  Query: What surface structure is most impregnable? Answer: Castle.  Therefore: Combine Ship + Castle.  Run Complete. Execute.

Its like Jaja's earlier meet a dwarf encounter... too funny.