The Empire of Land and Sea

[bronze]

Since I have initiated into the world of Glorantha, the West has always been focus of my attention. I have found their philosophy and culture are extremely fascinating. And I think the God Learners and their empire is the crowning jewel of the world. Hoping to get a comprehensive treatment of that era... someday. 

But it isn't about the God Learners and their secrets, which may remain forever concealed. It is about their empire. I have some questions to ask. I will classify them into categories. 

Herequest: How the God Learners Heroquest served to further their empire-building? How their Herequest is fundamentally, radically, distinct from the past and future equivalents? And if their Heroquesting is so powerful, so rule-breaking, why they still didn't manage to conquer the entire mortal realm? 

By the same token, how the Dara Happa and Carmania managed to resist and eventually evict the EWF? In the boundaries of land, they were even more powerful than the Empire. It is explictly stated that they could field the mightiest land force in the entire recoded history of Glorantha, including the Dawn Age. They literally steamrolled Dara Happa without much effort while fighting off the Empire and continue their diverse endeavours and entreprises. 

Sorcery: Has Sorcery around the world propagated by the God Learners conquest, or has codified Sorcerous traditions already existed in the East and South? Do denizens of Vithela have their own Sorcerous traditions, too? 

Chaos: How the God Learners and the Empire treated Chaos? Why they didn't put down the Chaos worship prevalent in Fonrit? It seems they successfully identified and linked Fonrit pantheon to the Chaos, but didn't take any action. There is even an implication that God Learners might have assisted the Fonritan to find their gods. The best course of action would be burning Fonrit down to the ground and salting the earth. It should be also noted that takeover of Fonrit had taken unusually long time, despite the fact that the region had been under the orbit of the Empire since almost the beginning. What kinds of difficulties may have plagued the God Learners? 

Pamaltela: It is beyond my comprehension why the Empire had never been able to reconquer its Pamaltela territories. Kolar had been a net drain of their finance, so I could understand why they decided to cut the loss and withdraw from cesspit, though precisely how Hon Hoolbitku was able to defeat a vastly more powerful enemy is anyone's guess. The gulf is infinitely greater than the Lunar-Orlanthi discrepancies. The Empire lost both Fonrit and Umathela at the height of its power, and it seems they had never made any serious attempt to reclaim the provinces, despite of their significance. The sole mentioned expediton was scared off and retreated without a fight. Of course, that might be retconned or expounded in time. AFAIF, nothing of Glorantha is set in stone... save the Third Age and its End. 

BTW, what might possibly be the Kolat Slave Riots? How a mere slave revolt managed to shatter the Empire's hold over Fonrit? And why they targeted the Empire's power base and left Fonritans alone, despite the latter being even worse? 

Eldar Races: How the Empire had interacted with the Eldar Races? It seems relationship between experimental empires and the Eldar Races was turbelent. It is stated that in the Imperial Age, humanity regined supreme and the Eldar Races plotted out and actively participated in their downfall. 

Dwarf: It is mentioned that the dwarfdom has started the Third Age on the weakest position due to widespread looting (and probably destruction) of Dwarf cities perpetrated by the God Learners, and both experiment empires were extremely adapt at deciphering Dwarven secrets with little material clues, so they went into hiding. I wonder whether the God Learners had learned the secret of gunpowder. 

Elf: How Errinoruela could fight off the Empire till the Closing? They might initially have been capable of battling the God Learner fleets on equal footing, but it was the early era, when the Empire used puny ships not different from later Age, and the Empire had no qualms about burning down entire jungels and forests via Sorcerous conflagration. They also could abuse Herequesting to vanquish quarrelsome Elves. Besides, I wonder Errinoru may have interacted with the Empire when he visited Genertela. The most curious is the cause behind the fall of Errinoruela and extermination of all of Errinoru’s descendants. What might be the strange insect? 

Troll: What use Ezkankekko had for both experimental empires? How Esrolia interacted with both empires? 

Eastern Isles: How extensive was the Empire's holding in Eastern Isles? How they governed the diverse territories? It is mentioned that the Empire never truly ruled the isles. Perhaps they mostly indirectly ruled through tributary system? I'm also curious about Golden Mokato. It seems their ships and sorcery were actually superior to the Empire, and their fleets were said to be invincible. Their ships might have been composed of pure magic. 

Another curiosity is Vormain. AFAIK, there is no mention whatsover how Vormain fared during the Imperial Age after the fall of Waertagi. Surely both the Middle Sea and Easten Sea Empires would have coveted the archipelago, and IIRC, Vormain was once a tributary of Kralorela. The God Learners could easily project their power from Kralorela and other colonies without the need to cross the Ocean. It is mentioned isolation of Vormain generated intense gratification. So perhaps they were a tributary of either empire? 

Sorcerous weapon: How are Sorcerous weapons operating? I'm wondering about their mechanism and delivery methods. It seems they are distinct form the Sorcerous spells. And the Empire had developed Sorcerous superweapons, though it hasn't been known whether they had actually been deployed.

It should be noted that after the Tanian's victory, there is absolutely no mention about strategic use of Sorcery, despite of the exponential advancement made in the Sorcerous knowledge and technique. I suppose such lacuna is owing to paltry of the Imperial Age lore. It would be reasonable to assume that the Sea of Flame had become the standard tactics of the Imperial Navy, and their enemies somehow had been able to ignore or nullify the Burning Waters and similar maneuvers. Also it seems that the Empire worshipped Togaro along with Tanian. Togaro is called Ocean of Terror, the Burning Ocean. Apparently turning water to fire was among favourite tactics of the God Learners. 

Emperor: How magically powerful were the Emperors of Land and Sea? They were foci of worship around litearlly half the world. Considering how powerful are the emperors of the Third Age empires, they must have been walking, breathing living high gods. They are referred to as the Mortal Ruler, a mortal peer of immortal gods. It is curious that the Prosopaedia dosen't include the Emperors in the list of Malkioni pantheon. Although Svagad is included, his runes aren't described. 

Industry: How widespread was inventions and contraptions made in Zistor? Though secret of mass producing magical enchantment had never beyond its immediate vicinity, couldn't non-magical technology itself be propagated and reproduced? I believe I once saw primitive machine shops were widespread thanks to Zistor, but have yet found the source.

It is also mentioned that they consisted of a key component throughout the Empire's contention with EWF, which possessed the greatest and most powerful land force ever graced (or ravaged) Glorantha. They even developed submarines and hot air balloons, though these aren't mentioned in the Men of the West supplement. 

Had the wider Empire aided Zistor throughout machine war? Zistorite project was a major investment of the Empire, and it seems the movement had been widely famous. They held the Ingareens in high esteem. But AFAIK, there is no mention whatsover the Empire-wide intervention in conflict, aside from occasional supplies. 

Closing: Why Zzabur decided to put the Empire to the closure? What would be his purpose? He had never deigned to intervene during Gbaji debacle after all, which is directly linked to Brithos via Arkat. Since the failed invasion attempt, the Empire had never antagonized Brithos. 

Government and Logistics: Are there any discussion regarding the government and logistics of the Empire beyond sourcebook? 

Future Publication: Although the mention of humanists in the other gods section heightened my anticipations, in all likelihood we are never going to see the Malkioni supplement in the foreseeable future. Considering even the East has gotten a dedicated writer, it is kinda depressing. I dearly hope to appreciate the Invisible God and Sorcery sourcebook. Announced plan of the West and South sourcebooks is a silver lining in the cloud, though their release would probably be significantly later than Kralorela sourcebook. I wonder the Vithela and Teshnos will eventually get their own sourcebook. They are really an interesting and unexplored region. 

Campaigns: Has anyone played campagins centered on the West or the Imperial Age? 

Edited August 18, 2023 by bronze

[metcalph]

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Herequest: How the God Learners Heroquest served to further their empire-building? How their Herequest is fundamentally, radically, distinct from the past and future equivalents? And if their Heroquesting is so powerful, so rule-breaking, why they still didn't manage to conquer the entire mortal realm? 

The God-Learners heroquesting wasn't of the type of "Throw the Ring into Mount Doom and Sauron goes away".   It was more of a constant grind against a Cosmos that didn't want to be known.  Their primary method was really about making all the different deities they encountered into a version of a Big God in their monomyth.The secondary method was about changing the other side for their own benefit.  That was only starting to take off at the end of the Empire when the Cosmos changed on them and all the myriad gods and people they had alienated over the centuries just showed up to give them a brutal kicking.

As for why they didn't conquer the whole world, there were other Empires with their own goals and secrets.  The EWF prevented progress through Dragon Pass.  The Eastern Seas Empire fought them tooth and nail in the Eastern Isles.  The Elf Empire made much of Pamaltela impassable.  The Carmanians opposed them in Fronela.  And so on.

 

[metcalph]

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Sorcery: Has Sorcery around the world propagated by the God Learners conquest, or has codified Sorcerous traditions already existed in the East and South? Do denizens of Vithela have their own Sorcerous traditions, too? 

Sorcery was already known to the world by the Storm Age.  The Vadeli brought it to Pamaltela and Martalak to the Eastern Isles.  In Genertela, Lhankor Mhy and Buserian both taught sorcery to their worshippers.    Whether all sorcery of all these places had their origin in the West is an interesting question.  The Westerners would say yes and everybody else would say no.  That said, when the God Learners showed up (this is many thousands of "years" later), there were native traditions of sorcery in many of the lands they explored.  Some of those traditions opposed them and others benefited from their wisdom.  Those that studied the God Learners too closely were badly damaged in their fall while other traditions pretended they had vehemently opposed the God Learners all along with varying degrees of cradibility.

[metcalph]

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Chaos: How the God Learners and the Empire treated Chaos? Why they didn't put down the Chaos worship prevalent in Fonrit? It seems they successfully identified and linked Fonrit pantheon to the Chaos, but didn't take any action. There is even an implication that God Learners *might* have assisted the Fonritan to find their gods. The best course of action would be burn Fonrit to the ground and salt the earth. It should be also noted that takeover of Fonrit had taken unusually long time, despite the fact that the region had been under orbit of the Empire since almost the beginning. What kinds of difficulties may have plagued the God Learners? 

IMO they knew at some level that Ompalam was chaotic but they never had the smoking gun to make the Fonritans agree with them.  As for cleansing Fonrit of Chaos, I think the God Learners thought about but put into the TOO HARD basket.  While the Fonritans were seemlingly subservient to them, I think the God Learners were all too keenly aware that they didn't have enough troops and magic to do the job.  Instead I think they opted for a policy of slow transformation of Fonritan society into a non-chaotic version.  But the Cosmos killed them before they could obtain any results. 

[metcalph]

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Pamaltela: It is beyond my comprehension why the Empire had never been able to reconquer its Pamaltela territories. Kolar had been a net burden of their finance, so I could comprehend why they decided to cut the loss and withdraw from cesspit, though precisely how Hon Hoolbitku was able to defeat a vastly more powerful enemy is anyone's guess. The gulf is infinitely greater than the Lunar-Orlanthi discrepancies. The Empire lost both Fonrit and Umathela at the height of its power, and it seems they had never made serious attempt to reclaim the provinces, despite of their significance. The sole mentioned expediton was scared off and retreated without a fight. Of course, that might be retconned or expounded in time. AFAIF, nothing of Glorantha is set in stone... save the Third Age and its End. 

BTW, what might possibly be the Kolat Slave Riots? How a mere slave revolt managed to shatter the Empire's hold over Fonrit? And why they targeted the Empire's power base and left Fonritans alone, despite the latter being even *worse*? 

Hon Hoolbitku won because the God Learner cavalry was bad because they couldn't live of the local vegetation.  The God Learners didn't really have any units of magicians on the battlefield in the area - most of those were probably fielded against the EWF.  As for ebing at the height of its power, that really refers only to the geographical expanse rather than the political tensions within the Empire.  The Seshnelan King might have thought he ruled the world but the Umathelans would have become increasingly pissed off about how he ran things.  Think of how various American colonies (English, Spanish and Portuguese) ended revolting and becoming independent.

Why did the Empire never make a serious attempt to reconquer Umathela?  Because they had most of their forces opposing the EWF and also a resurgent cult of Arkat in Ralios.  Since those places are much closer to home, they have a higher military priority.

A possibility for the Kolat slave riots might have been the Empire's non-chaotic replacement for Ompalam (I'm just thinking here as it's not been described).  In promoting this cult and showing its superiority over Ompalam in controlling large populations of humans, the God Learners had hoped to convert the Fonritans away from Ompalam.  Which would have worked if it hadn't been for the Kolat slave revolts.  The slave revolts were serious because they affected the God Learner Cult and not the native Fonritans.    Furthermore the image of overwhelming God Learner might was destroyed and they seemed much weaker than before.  The Umathelans might have mustered enough troops to restore authority but they had their own greviances with the Empire.

[Joerg]

23 minutes ago, bronze said:

Herequest: How the God Learners Heroquest served to further their empire-building? How their Herequest is fundamentally, radically, distinct from the past and future equivalents? And if their Heroquesting is so powerful, so rule-breaking, why they still didn't manage to conquer the entire mortal realm?

There are two periods to God Learner heroquesting. Initially, spurred on by the arrival of the Abiding Book, there was a sudden boost to the Jrusteli sorcerers' ability to cause huge magics, like the fires that burnt most of Vralos in Umathela (even before the Battle of Tanian's Victory) or when the Free Men of the Sea (or so) commanded a lesser celestial water deity to summon Tanian, God of Burning Waters, down onto the Waertagi fleet and their triolini allies.

As far as I can tell, these made use of the RuneQuest Sight, a magical perception of the forces of the universe as impersonal energies onto which sorcery could be applied. A technique which no longer works after the cataclysms that ended the Second Age (and not exactly for lack of practitioners who used to be able to use it, despite all that hubbub about the Gift Bearers of the Sending Gods in Umathela whose activities may have culminated in the Cult of Silence).

Armed with this kind of superior magic and egged on by their manifest destiny to spread Rightness, the Jrusteli colonists liberated the sad remnants of the Kingdom of Seshnela from a client of a Tanisoran lord - probably an Archon of Arkat's Autarchy, but possibly a successor of an earlier Tanisoran royalty. They succeeded, to a good part thanks to a new movement of monastic sorcerers studying the heck out of the Abiding Book.

Whether the Autarchy was to blame or not, the Jrusteli overlords of Seshnela went on to conquer the Autarchy continuing the trumped-up accusations Nralar the Old had uttered when the Archon had ignored his presumptious demand for tribute upon his coronation. There they came into closer contact with Arkat's creative and systematic brand of heroquesting, something that none of the Gbaji War returner men-of-all to Seshnela had participated in. Still, their Abiding Sorcery proved to be powerful enough to advance piecemeal, and by 740 the last Archon Paslac had been overcome. While they advanced, they found few of the Arkati writings about their secrets, despite intensive searching and raiding for such. It took their researchers half a century to decipher a cryptic magical book which offered an entryway into Creative HeroQuesting with a chance at mapping the Hero Plane.

When that finally succeeded, the thing that we know and dread as God Learner HeroQuesting began in earnest, starting with systematic elimination of the Arkati Guardians of intersections.

The God Learners combined cultic knowledge with the distanced perspective of RuneQuest Sight, allowing them to deconstruct obstacles as manifestation of runes which they then would manipulate sorcerously when going with the myth was too hard, required too much submission to the deity, or was otherwise inconvenient. A bit like Donald J. Trump Junior taking a sniper rifle to Afrika to shoot a trophy, rather than attempting a hunt with a modicum of personal risk and exposure to the environment.

 

The God Learner heroquesting was aiming to conquer the immortal landscape, with significant initial success, and repercussions only slowly appearing. The episode with the Raccoon Guardian of Tusunimmi Ford (in the Guide) is one such example, apparently ridiculous in its consequences, except for unforeseen after-effects.

And the God Learners had competition - the EWF with its experimentation with Dragon Magic, continuation of Second Council experimentation including sorcery, the Yellow Elf empire of Errinoru which created a magical network of forests interfering with the God Learner explorations, naval forces in the East Isles as able to rebut the Empire of the Middle Sea as they had been to rebut the Waertagi before them, and sloppy establishment of altered myths which did not stand up in the face of deeper secrets known to the natives.

Although most importantly they were stopped by Zzabur's Curse of the Closing, and internal disunity centering on Halwal, a God Learner setting out on a dissenting quest of redemption that did not succeed enough to avert the later cataclysms.

For all their heroquesting acumen, which had first created and later dealt with the Firebergs, was powerless before the Closing, only succeeding in sending a few ships successfully through the Closing, which adapted to catch such exceptions.

[radmonger]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

As for why they didn't conquer the whole world, there were other Empires with their own goals and secrets. 

And as knowledge of God Learner military magic spread faster than explicit Seshnelan/Jrustelan political  control, those empires were peers of the Empire. 

in fact. sometimes when later chroniclers talk about the 'god learners' doing something,  it would be strictly more accurate to say it was one of the god learner's _enemies_  who actually did it. Nevertheless, the requirement of being able to militarily compete with the god learners imposed its own logic on local mythology.

in real world terms, if you look at the inscriptions a North Korean NCO wears, you might posit the existence of a 'sergeant' rune....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_ranks_of_North_Korea

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, bronze said:

Sorcery: Has Sorcery around the world propagated by the God Learners conquest, or has codified Sorcerous traditions already existed in the East and South? Do denizens of Vithela have their own Sorcerous traditions, too?

Disregarding the dwarf version of sorcery, the application of sorcerous techniques on runes was the signature magic of the mythical Kingdom of Logic in the western (triangular) quarter of Glorantha, but practitioners of this kind of magic pop up elsewhere as early as the earliest trips of Logicians outside of their triangle of the world.

 

The Vithelans have the story about three sons of Vith and Gebkeran who ventured outside of Vithela to master the magics of the north (theism), the south (animism) and the west (sorcery), although from their perspective it is all in the west. Whether it is thanks to this early venture or whether it is the result of underworld origins and connections, but many of the adpara antigods or antigod races know and apply sorcery, e.g. the huan-to of Kralorela.

While merfolk generally practices theism or animism, the Zabdamar of Kahar's Sea of Fog practice sorcery, and certain sea entities other than the Waertagi and their hybrid offspring do as well.

Any knowledge god worth the claim would have a grasp of the fundamentals of sorcery. There are many faces of Lhankor Mhy.

 

Waertagi, Kachisti and Vadeli spread sorcery, and at least the Vadeli also sold that magical knowledge when it served their nefarious purposes.

[metcalph]

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Dwarf: It is mentioned that the dwarfdom has started the Third Age on the weakest position due to widespread looting (and probably destruction) of Dwarf cities perpetrated by the God Learners, and both experiment empires were extremely adapt at deciphering Dwarven secrets with little material clues, so they went into hiding. I wonder whether the God Learners had learned the secret of gunpowder. 

It's probable that they did.  But they never learned the details of quality control so that all their blackpowder weapons were variable in quality (pretty much like a Disorder Keg Glorantha Bestiary p60).  The God Learners could have cracked that but they had far more fruitful areas of research elsewhere.

[metcalph]

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Elf: How Errinoruela could fight off the Empire till the Closing? They might initially have been capable of battling the God Learner fleets on equal footing, but it was the early era, when the Empire used puny ships not different from later Age, and the Empire had no qualms about burning down entire jungels and forests via Sorcerous conflagration. They also could abuse Herequesting to vanquish quarrelsome Elves. Besides, I wonder Errinoru may have interacted with the Empire when he visited Genertela. The most curious is the cause behind the fall of Errinoruela and exterminated of all of Errinoru’s descendants. What might be the strange insect? 

The burning down the woods of Vralos was done in 654 ST when the God Learners were far from organized (the Abiding Book was only written nine years before and the Seshnegi are still to be conquered by the Dark Empire).  The only resources available were Seshnegi migrants who had been there for sixty years and the First Migrants who had been there for another century before.  So the destruction was really done by local wizards who unleashed big spells against the centres of elvish power and men with axes took care of the rest.

As for Errinoru's interactions, we only have a single document from the Middle Sea Empire p50-p51.  There's a single invasion - the battle of Talking Beach - in which they were driven off.  Some years later Errinoru sends a raiding fleet down the (Pamaltelan) coast aided by the Triolini.  They destroyed about four cities before they engaged with a God Learner Fleet and drove it off.   Errinoru sends his ship down Magasta's Pool before remerging in Kahar's Sea.  He then visits Fethlon and south and western Genertela before returning home.

The events outlined in this document differ radically from Errinoru's history in the Guide (he circumnavigates first then goes down the pool before landing from the Sky) as it is undoubtedly an early outline.  While the Battle of Talking Beach probably happened, its implied date in the document (before 734 ST) is kinda too early for the God Learners to be launching a massive invasion miles away from their nearest lands.  The Dark Empire has not yet been destroyed, Kralorela has still to be captured and the Lopers are still causing trouble in Maniria.  Even if it was the Umathelans, the geographical argument would still apply.  So the dating of all this is up in the air.

As for the strange insect - it might be the God Learners (unlikely IMO as their empire was being smashed apart by the Closing), Trolls (again unlikely as the Jungle Trolls are friendly and the Tarmo too distant), the Dwarves (unlikely as they don't work with insects) or Pamalt (who was blamed in the original Gods of Glorantha for halting the spread of the Jungle).  It could even be internal elvish politics.  

[metcalph]

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Eastern Isles: How extensive was the Empire's holding in Eastern Isles? How they governed the diverse territories? It is mentioned that the Empire never truly ruled the isles. Perhaps they mostly indirectly ruled through tributary system? I'm also curious about Golden Mokato. It seems their ships and sorcery were actually superior to the Empire, and their fleets were said to be invincible. Their ships might have been composed of pure magic. 

 

A map by Jeff ( https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/the-middle-sea-empire/ ) shows the extent of Jrusteli control over the Eastern Isles.  They reached as far as the Boil in the South and the extent of their reach in the north was probably the Andin and Arandinni Isles.  They never controlled Hanfarador but the Pearl Islands were definitely within their control (an Emperor is cited as having tried a diet from there).  I kinda think that the centres of God Learner power were the Jabbi Isles (where the Valkarians still are) and the Pearl Isles.  The Valkarians were resistant to the God learns and probably escaped lasting damage from their downfall.  The Pearl Isles seem much reduced in population and prestige compared to Hanfarador and so I think the Eastern seas Empire targeted them for retribution from which they still have to recover.  

The alleged superiority of the Mokatan ships is primarily Waertagi cope trying to explain why their ships weren't doing so well against the,  Their ships were normal although I do think they had some boil-crossers to launch naval raids.

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Another curiosity is Vormain. AFAIK, there is no mention whatsover how Vormain fared during the Imperial Age after the fall of Waertagi. Surely both the Middle Sea and Easten Sea Empires would have coveted the archipelago, and IIRC, Vormain was once a tributary of Kralorela. The God Learners could easily project their power from Kralorela and other colonies without the need to cross the Ocean. It is mentioned isolation of Vormain generated intense gratification. So perhaps they were a tributary of either empire? 

People attempted to reach Vormain proper several times but were all killed off.  I think Travellers could make their way around the Hinter Isles and chat with the exiles (so long as they didn't ask anything about Vormain proper).  Vormain was IMO in a too hard basket for now as the Eastern seas Empire was still active. To control pirates, I think both the Middle Sea Empire and the New Dragons Ring spent their time sending Kaiju into Vormain proper (MSE from the Jabbi Isles, NDR from Desolation Isle) as a low cost alternative to a full-scale invasion.

[metcalph]

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Sorcerous weapon: How are Sorcerous weapons operating? I'm wondering about their mechanism and delivery methods. It seems they are distinct form the Sorcerous spells. And the Empire had developed Sorcerous superweapons, though it hasn't been known whether they had actually been deployed.

It should be noted that after the Tanian's victory, there is absolutely no mention about strategic use of Sorcery, despite of the fact that supposed exponential advancement of Sorcerous knowledge and technique. I suppose such lacuna is owing to paltry of the Imperial Age lore. It would be reasonable to assume that the Sea of Flame had become the standard tactics of the Imperial Navy, and their enemies somehow had been able to ignore or nullify the Burning Waters and similar maneuvers. Also it seems that the Empire worshipped Togaro along with Tanian. Togaro is called Ocean of Terror, the Burning Ocean. Apparently turning water to fire was among favourite tactics of the God Learners. 

Middle Sea Empire weapons were more like Manhattan projects than research a better type of Fireball.  Most of their weapons were developed against the Dragons and they seem to have been successful in that the EWF was fought to a near standstill.  Once the Dragons in a given theatre were neutralized via a cat-and-mouse game of crafted spells, the regular troops could then deal with the opposing army.  

As for mention, the God Learners had Zistor tear down the walls of Esrolia (King of Sartar p80), a big fire missile which destroys half a city (sent by a merchant guild! - History of the Heortling Peoples p81) and the Two Year Winter (Fortunate Succession p36).  There were probably others but records from that time are scant (destruction of the Machine City, Sinking of Slontos etc)

[metcalph]

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Emperor: How magically powerful were the Emperors of Land and Sea? They were foci of worship around litearlly half the world. Considering how powerful are the Emperors of third age empires, they must have been walking, breathing living high gods. They are referred to as the Mortal Ruler, a mortal peer of immortal gods. It is curious that the Prosopaedia dosen't include the Emperors in the list of Malkioni pantheon. Although Svagad is included, his runes aren't described. 

I don't think the Emperors were worshipped as they were kinda more secular rulers.  The magic that the God Learners had exacted from their citizens were funneled to their wizards to use.  The Wizards spent a fair bit of that magic on their rulers (spells both protective and pangyrical) but most of the magic was used for their own researches and spells.  Their caste duty that they must obey their nobles kept them in check even if it made them carry out otherwise silly projects.

[scott-martin]

13 hours ago, bronze said:

Emperor: How magically powerful were the Emperors of Land and Sea? They were foci of worship around litearlly half the world. Considering how powerful are the Emperors of third age empires, they must have been walking, breathing living high gods. They are referred to as the Mortal Ruler, a mortal peer of immortal gods. It is curious that the Prosopaedia dosen't include the Emperors in the list of Malkioni pantheon. Although Svagad is included, his runes aren't described. 

There are details in the archaic texts that make someone suddenly take in their breath and then forget to exhale to avoid breaking into an ugly bit of weeping for the past. One in particular revolves around the imperial cult, "market" and "maritime" being associated in some etymologies.

Edited August 18, 2023 by scott-martin
typo > expansion

[g33k]

13 hours ago, bronze said:

...

Herequest: ... And if their Heroquesting is so powerful, so rule-breaking, why they still didn't manage to conquer the entire mortal realm? 
...

Something worth noting here, I think...

The God Learners had some really-deep insights into many of the fundamental mechanisms of the universe, insights that others learned only slowly and at great cost.  They saw more deeply than others, saw the mechanisms they could lay their will upon, to do great deeds; and they never stopped looking for more and more mechanisms.

But also, they were fundamentally wrong.

The universe of Glorantha is sentient, sapient, and not mechanistic.  Oh, it has "mechanisms" aplenty (just as you and I have lungs, and a heart, and skin, &c &c &c)... but the GL's were unwilling to look at the fact that the universe cared.

And it did not care to be enslaved.

Edited August 18, 2023 by g33k

[metcalph]

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Industry: How widespread was inventions and contraptions made in Zistor? Though secret of mass producing magical enchantment had never beyond its immediate vicinity, couldn't non-magical technology itself be propagated and reproduced? I believe I once saw primitive machine shops were widespread thanks to Zistor, but have yet found the source.

It is also mentioned that they consisted of a key component throughout the Empire's contention with EWF, which possessed the greatest and most powerful land force ever graced (or ravaged) Glorantha. They even developed submarines and hot air balloons, though these aren't mentioned in the Men of the West supplement. 

Had the wider Empire aided Zistor throughout machine war? Zistorite project was a major investment of the Empire, and it seems the movement had been widely famous. They held the Ingareens in high esteem. But AFAIK, there is no mention whatsover the Empire-wide intervention in conflict, aside from occasional supplies. 

The Zistorite wonders were peculiar to the Machine City.  None magical technology could have been propagated but it's important to remember: technology is a worker's job and spells is a wizard's job.  A wizard who interests himself in technology is failing his obligations as a wizard to master sorcery.  Thus there's no incentive for a wizard to study technology and set up factories elsewhere within the Middle Sea Empire.  A worker could but he's only a commoner and hence unlikely to gain the ear of the nobility.

As for the wider Middle Sea Empire involvement:

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The Middle Sea Empire in this period was a vast and complex political machine. Zistorela was important—it was an Official Imperial Project, whose director was Director of Subtle Applications, and reported right to the imperial. This man sat on the Inner Privy Council of the Empire.

But it was not critical. It never got direct intervention protocols focused through it. A few attacks were authorized, but no huge invasion force was ever shuttled to Zistorela. (The relatively minor Temporary Authorizations by the vast empire were tough enough to defeat the Unity Army.)

History of the Heortling Peoples p55.

 

[metcalph]

Quote

Closing: Why Zzabur decided to put the Empire to the closure? What would be his purpose? He had never deigned to intervene during Gbaji debacle after all, which is directly linked to Brithos via Arkat. Since the failed invasion attempt, the Empire had never antagonized Brithos. 

I think Zzabur cast the Closing because the Middle Sea Empire had attacked Brithos.  They had done it once before and who's to say they won't do it again?  Sure relations with the Empire are fine and dandy at the moment but Zzabur always takes the longest view.

[soltakss]

All of my answers are in my opinion.

21 hours ago, bronze said:

Herequest: How the God Learners Heroquest served to further their empire-building? How their Herequest is fundamentally, radically, distinct from the past and future equivalents? And if their Heroquesting is so powerful, so rule-breaking, why they still didn't manage to conquer the entire mortal realm? 
By the same token, how the Dara Happa and Carmania managed to resist and eventually evict the EWF? In the land, they were even more powerful than the Empire It is explictly stated that mightiest land force in the entire history of Dawn age included endeavour effort they literally steamrolled Dara Happa while fighting off the Empire. 

There is a wonderful tale about how the God Learners learned about HeroQuesting. They were shown a magical book by an imp, who may have been an aspect of Eurmal, that opened windows into magical worlds. The God Learners prepared and sent someone into the magical world and they didn't return, so they sent 10 magically prepared people and none returned, then they sent 100 magically prepared people into the magical world and one returned, badly injured and psychically damaged - Success!

That illustrates the God Learner method of throwing huge numbers of magical resources at a problem. hey also developed a ritual way of riddling, where they could ask a demigod or deity magical questions, losing information if they lost and gaining information if they won. As they managed to riddle more and more beings, they built up a resource of lore that meant that they had a good chance of asking a question that the beings, with their limited knowledge, didn't know, thus increasing their own knowledge, but had a good chance of being able to answer the questions of the being, especially if they had encountered similar beings in the past. In that way, they built up a lot of knowledge about the magical worlds.

The God Learners HeroQuested to do many things. They showed that they were acceptable to local deities. They defeated the Waertagi by burning the very seas that they sailed on. They created new deities. They changed the nature of existing deities. They also standardised myths and spread some cults across Glorantha.

Dara Happa and Carmania used HeroQuesting to defeat the EWF. The Carmanians learned how to demonise and kill True Dragons, which made them very dangerous. 

21 hours ago, bronze said:

Sorcery: Has Sorcery around the world propagated by the God Learners conquest, or has codified Sorcerous traditions already existed in the East and South? Do denizens of Vithela have their own Sorcerous traditions, too? 

Malkioni and Brithini had their own Sorcery but the God Learners standardised much of it. They used their version of the Abiding Book as a central scripture but they also stripped parts back and added more lore outside of the Abiding Book. 

However, following the God Learner fall, many Malkioni forgot some God Learner sorcery. However, it is still more standardised than before.

Mostali, however, have their own Sorcery and that was not affected by the God Learners, as far as I know.

Arkati had Sorcery that was derived from the Brithini and Malkioni, but the Arkat cult was broken and scattered by the God Learners.

21 hours ago, bronze said:

Chaos: How the God Learners and the Empire treated Chaos? Why they didn't put down the Chaos worship prevalent in Fonrit? It seems they successfully identified and linked Fonrit pantheon to the Chaos, but didn't take any action. There is even an implication that God Learners might have assisted the Fonritan to find their gods. The best course of action would be burning Fonrit down to the ground and salting the earth. It should be also noted that takeover of Fonrit had taken unusually long time, despite the fact that the region had been under the orbit of the Empire since almost the beginning. What kinds of difficulties may have plagued the God Learners? 

At the start, Chaos was an enemy to be broken and despised.

At the end, Chaos was just another tool, their myths were just myths to be studied, their deities could be riddled in the same way as any other and their powers and secrets could be gained. The God Learners did not worship Chaos, or Chaotic Deities, but did use Chaos as a tool. In my Glorantha, the God Learners created the Thanatar cult, as it was a useful way of gaining knowledge faster.

 

21 hours ago, bronze said:

Dwarf: It is mentioned that the dwarfdom has started the Third Age on the weakest position due to widespread looting (and probably destruction) of Dwarf cities perpetrated by the God Learners, and both experiment empires were extremely adapt at deciphering Dwarven secrets with little material clues, so they went into hiding. I wonder whether the God Learners had learned the secret of gunpowder. 

Jrustela has a big Mostali Complex, so maybe the God Learners interacted with them, I am not sure. They probably didn't need gunpowder, as they had things like tanian's Fire instead.

21 hours ago, bronze said:

Elf: How Errinoruela could fight off the Empire till the Closing? They might initially have been capable of battling the God Learner fleets on equal footing, but it was the early era, when the Empire used puny ships not different from later Age, and the Empire had no qualms about burning down entire jungels and forests via Sorcerous conflagration. They also could abuse Herequesting to vanquish quarrelsome Elves. Besides, I wonder Errinoru may have interacted with the Empire when he visited Genertela. The most curious is the cause behind the fall of Errinoruela and extermination of all of Errinoru’s descendants. What might be the strange insect? 

 

21 hours ago, bronze said:

Troll: What use Ezkankekko had for both experimental empires? How Esrolia interacted with both empires? 

They shattered the Arkat Cult, which probably had an impact on the Trolls. The Only Old One was a fief of both the Middle Sea Empire and the Empire of the Wyrms Friends. Esrolia was just part of the Shadowlands and was very much under his control, with no real political independence.

The God Learners established the Machine City in the Shadowlands, so they must have been on good terms, although Esrolian Heroes opposed it.

21 hours ago, bronze said:

Eldar Races: How the Empire had interacted with the Eldar Races? It seems relationship between experimental empires and the Eldar Races was turbelent. It is stated that in the Imperial Age, humanity regined supreme and the Eldar Races plotted out and actively participated in their downfall. 

They didn't understand Dragonewts and Dragons, but they conquered Kralorela and created the Ring of Immanent Mastery, so must have gained some Draconic Lore. Other Elder Races didn't figure much, I think.

 

21 hours ago, bronze said:

Emperor: How magically powerful were the Emperors of Land and Sea? They were foci of worship around litearlly half the world. Considering how powerful are the Emperors of third age empires, they must have been walking, breathing living high gods. They are referred to as the Mortal Ruler, a mortal peer of immortal gods. It is curious that the Prosopaedia dosen't include the Emperors in the list of Malkioni pantheon. Although Svagad is included, his runes aren't described. 

The leaders of the EWF  were the focus of a lot of worship in a big pyramid scheme. However, the Emperors of the Middle Sea Empire weren't worshipped in the same way, as far as I remember.

21 hours ago, bronze said:

Industry: How widespread was inventions and contraptions made in Zistor? Though secret of mass producing magical enchantment had never beyond its immediate vicinity, couldn't non-magical technology itself be propagated and reproduced? I believe I once saw primitive machine shops were widespread thanks to Zistor, but have yet found the source.

It is also mentioned that they consisted of a key component throughout the Empire's contention with EWF, which possessed the greatest and most powerful land force ever graced (or ravaged) Glorantha. They even developed submarines and hot air balloons, though these aren't mentioned in the Men of the West supplement. 

Had the wider Empire aided Zistor throughout machine war? Zistorite project was a major investment of the Empire, and it seems the movement had been widely famous. They held the Ingareens in high esteem. But AFAIK, there is no mention whatsover the Empire-wide intervention in conflict, aside from occasional supplies. 

Think of Zistor as like a cult. Members of the cult, or followers of the philosophy, probably used machine magic and technology, other people didn't. I think that the Empire of the Middle Sea could have had a steampunk feel around Zistor, but whether they had cyborgs in the way that Mongoose portrayed them is a matter of opinion. They did in my Glorantha.

The Emperor, upon hearing of the fall of Zistor, carried on eating his breakfast, remarking that it had been an interesting experiment. That shows how much the God Learners cared about Zistor.

21 hours ago, bronze said:

Closing: Why Zzabur decided to put the Empire to the closure? What would be his purpose? He had never deigned to intervene during Gbaji debacle after all, which is directly linked to Brithos via Arkat. Since the failed invasion attempt, the Empire had never antagonized Brithos. 

The Middle Sea Empire had strayed too far from Malkion's teachings, so Zzabur closed it down. As it was a trade empire, he wanted to stop the oceanic trade but I think the Closing itself was not his desired result.

21 hours ago, bronze said:

Future Publication: Though the mentioned of humanists in the other gods section heightened my anticipations, in all likelihood we are never going to see the Malkioni supplement in the foreseeable future. Considering even the East has gotten a dedicated writer, it is kinda depressing. I dearly hope to appreciate the Invisible God and Sorcery sourcebook. Announced plan of the West and South sourcebooks is a silver lining in the cloud, though their release would probably be significantly later than Kralorela sourcebook. I wonder the Vithela and Teshnos will eventually get their own sourcebook. They are really an interesting and unexplored region. 

If you can get hold of them, look at the Mongoose supplements, as they have a lot of interesting ideas. They won't be treated as canonical in any way, though.

 

[mfbrandi]

9 hours ago, g33k said:

The God Learners had some really-deep insights into many of the fundamental mechanisms of the universe … But also, they were fundamentally wrong. The universe of Glorantha is sentient, sapient, and not mechanistic.

We could just say that the Godlearners were hissable villains who served a heartless empire and didn’t really “get it” — they got squished and good riddance.

Or we could acknowledge their villainy and yet view them more sympathetically. They are like Oedipus: their own investigations will bring their doom upon them. To understand the world, you have to poke it with a stick; eventually, you poke a big enough monster and it eats you; you don’t see the tipping point till you are past it. That story at least should run like a machine: effect follows inevitably from cause, and there is no escape for them. They are tragic heroes.

One aspect of the Gloranthan vision is rather pessimistic, and if we were to say that the GLs were fundamentally right, but that that could not save them and in fact sealed their doom, wouldn’t that play nicely into that pessimism?

Ompalam as the Invisible God is likely another expression of a dark and despairing view of the world: natural law as the chains of slavery.

But what would it mean to say the world is not mechanistic? There are surely options (and surely more than I will list):

• it doesn’t behave like the machines we build, which are stiff limited things
• sometimes, things may happen for no reason (have no efficient cause)

I don’t suppose the GLs would deny either of those, but I dare say they would think: but we can build better, more “organic” machines, and we can find reasons where previously we found none. After all, the GLs are us. What are we missing?

[bronze]

Wow. A thousand thousand thanks to everyone! 

On 8/17/2023 at 10:29 PM, radmonger said:

And as knowledge of God Learner military magic spread faster than explicit Seshnelan/Jrustelan political  control, those empires were peers of the Empire. 

in fact. sometimes when later chroniclers talk about the 'god learners' doing something,  it would be strictly more accurate to say it was one of the god learner's _enemies_  who actually did it. Nevertheless, the requirement of being able to militarily compete with the god learners imposed its own logic on local mythology.

in real world terms, if you look at the inscriptions a North Korean NCO wears, you might posit the existence of a 'sergeant' rune....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_ranks_of_North_Korea

I suppose the every empire of the Imperial Age would have used more or less the same heroquest methods. And it makes me curious. If everyone had perpetuated the same crime over and over, why only the God Learners were punished for it? 

As to punishment, how Jrustali was shattered and sinked? Some say the perpetrator is Waertagi, others say it is Luatha. It might be the both. Or none. I believe I once saw the mention that there had been an intense battle in Jrustela, though have yet managed to rediscover it. Perhaps the founders of the greatest empire of Glorantha had refused to go quiet and meek. Rage, rage against coming of the night. 

It should be noted that Golden Mokato never been punished. Considering even Umathela was attacked and savaged by Waertagi, it is quite curious. After all, Mokato could be said that the ultimate source of the all tribulations suffered by Waertagi. 

As for other entities, there aren't enough information about the Eastern Sea Empire and Errinoruela. And it is extremely unlikely that the latter's magical jungle could protect them against the second Vralos. Considering exponential growth of the God Learners capabilities, they may have been able to incinerate Errinoruela wholesale if they wished so. They also could spread magical blight to eradicate jungles and exterminate elves. I think unless the Second Age sourcebooks are finally released out, we would never know their secrets of successes. 

And really, the Empire of the Land and Sea and the EMF are deserving to get their own sourcebook. For instance, the former could get at least three separate sourcebooks: Their empire, their sorcery, their military. 
 

It seems newly joined member could submit only a single post per day 😞 Is it correct? And there is even the limit of reaction, too...

Edited August 18, 2023 by bronze

[bronze]

As for the emperor worship and imperial navy, here are respective references (https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/the-divine-fortune-of-the-emperor-of-land-and-sea/, https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/second-age-middle-sea-empire/). To contend this, to say nothing of war sorcery, I think Mokato and their Eastern Sea Empire must have wielded extremely potent magic. And their ships may indeed have been at least partially magical. 

Edited August 18, 2023 by bronze

[Joerg]

51 minutes ago, bronze said:

I suppose the every empire of the Imperial Age would have used more or less the same heroquest methods. And it makes me curious. If everyone had perpetuated the same crime over and over, why only the God Learners were punished for it?

Nobody except for the God Learners dared to move deities around, or invent new ones from nothing just for sake of experimentation.

The Arkati credo was to enter the realm of myth only with humility and respect. The God Learner questers lacked both.

[Darius West]

On 8/17/2023 at 9:07 PM, bronze said:

Heroquest: How the God Learners Heroquest served to further their empire-building? How their Heroquest is fundamentally, radically, distinct from the past and future equivalents? And if their Heroquesting is so powerful, so rule-breaking, why they still didn't manage to conquer the entire mortal realm? 

The issue of how the God Learners used HQs for empire building is complex.  It begins with their uncovering of an Arkati text on HQs in an old architecture book, combined with the Sharp Abiding Book, from which they are able to deduce the Rune Quest Sight.  The joke being that the God Learners effectively uncover the RQ rules book and proceed to minmax like munchkin imperialists.  They then send out what might be described as "weaponized anthropologists" who were likely illuminated, and they would infiltrate the societies that the Jrusteli had come in contact with, and gain access to their magical secrets, and thus to their HQ path knowledge.  This allowed the God learners to start mapping the interactions of God Time.  The map had a mathematical component to it, but essentially formed the Monomyth i.e. a relatively complete and detailed description of the comings and goings of a great many deities in the God Time, which all run like clockwork because there is a "narrative direction" but no true Time.  By use of the map and their myth navigation calculus, they are able to go so far as to bust walls from one myth into adjacent myths, and effectively plunder "pagan" mythologies for magic weapons and special powers.  The God Learners as a result have more Hero level characters than have ever existed in Glorantha, and that is extremely important on a Gloranthan battlefield.  They also unlock huge magical powers that can be activated by sorcerers acting in concert, as well as flying ships and other wonders.  But as with every Empire, they become hubristic and over-reach themselves.  The creation of the machine deity Zistor breaks the Great Compromise, and unleashes the Gods themselves to set the world to rights.  Zistor is quickly destroyed.  Special divine assassins make short work of those with the Rune Quest Sight.  And of course Zzabur closes the oceans, driving all ships from the open oceans of Glorantha for centuries.  

As to why the Jrusteli empire didn't conquer everything, well, they tried quite hard.  What stopped them was partly their own hubris and over-reach, but that extended to magic as well.  There is also the issue that enemies will search out weaknesses and develop new tactics.  For example Hon Hoolbiktu realized that the cavalry of the 6 Legged Empire (the Jrusteli in his part of Pamaltela), had beasts that were very thirsty and dependent on water in the hot climate.  Thus they set about denying the cavalry access to water supply, for an obvious logistics win.  All the cultures resist their conquest, some more successfully than others, but ultimately Glorantha is forever changed by the God Learners.  For example, the HQs of the main Lightbringers, and likely Humakt too are all permanently mythically altered and rationalized by the God Learners, and this is happening at the same time as the same cults are also being Draconized by the Empire of the Wyrms' Friends.

It should also be pointed out that if you see technology that you want in your Glorantha, but it isn't Bronze Age, you can claim that it was a God learner invention during the Second Age.  Examples may include stirrups, clear glass, and chimneys.

Edited August 18, 2023 by Darius West

[Joerg]

54 minutes ago, bronze said:

As to punishment, how Jrustali was shattered and sinked? Some say the perpetrator is Waertagi, others say it is Luatha. It might be the both. Or none. I believe I once saw the mention that there had been an intense battle in Jrustela, though have yet managed to rediscover it. Perhaps the founders of the greatest empire of Glorantha had refused to go quiet and meek. Rage, rage against coming of the night.

There seems to have been a one-way-trip from Hell to Hell by the Waertagi, daring the Closing, possibly riding on a massive tidal wave, but there may have been other things. The last message from Jrustela received in Seshnela (at least a year before the sinking) was "Damn the Torpedoes" - part of a famous quote from admiral Farragut rushing into enemy mines at the battle of Mobile Bay.

There were no surviving witnesses of the destruction of Jrustela, unlike that of Old Seshnela. While all humans seem to have been exterminated or mutated (see the strange island with the animal-headed giants in the center of the archipelago), their timinit associates seem to have survived just fine, although without the level of culture they seemed to have adopted.

 

1 hour ago, bronze said:

 

It should be noted that Golden Mokato never been punished. Considering even Umathela was attacked and savaged by Waertagi, it is quite curious. After all, Mokato could be said that the ultimate source of the all tribulations suffered by Waertagi.

The Waertagi had used up their island-sinking magic against the associate empire of Golden Mokato, mentioned only once in the Guide. The next use of that magic seems to have been aimed at the home of the Free Men of the Sea instead who had burned half the Waertagi population at Tanian's Victory, a disaster much worse than the indecisive outcome of the battle against Mokato.

And that is assuming that the Waertagi were the only party to attack Jrustela, which most likely was not the case. The initially hostile spirits of the place may have been involved as well.

Umathela was savaged by tidal waves, but I don't recall any Waertagi involvement that late. Instead, we get Terthinus, Voice of the Deep, and his Malasp allies. Who, given the Malasp presence in drowned Jrustela, might have been involved there, too.

1 hour ago, bronze said:

As to other entities, there aren't enough information about the Eastern Sea Empire and Errinoruela. And it is extremely unlikely that the latter's magical jungle could protect them against the second Vralos. Considering exponential growth of the God Learners capabilities, they may have been able to incinerate Errinoruela wholesale if they wished so. They also could spread magical blight to eradicate jungles and exterminate elves. I think unless the Second Age sourcebooks are finally released out, we would never know their secrets of successes.

Errinoru blatantly sailed the seas claimed by the Middle Sea Empire, without any major attempt to intecept him that we know of.

Vralos is one of the few atrocities committed by westerners against the forest lords. The only other one I know off-cuff is that of the third Serpent King against an aldryami forest, despite being married to the daughter of the lord of the other forest in Old Seshnela.

Vralos may have been more prone to devastating fires than the rainforest of Errinoru, too. Magical blight is a different topic, as that was what ended the Errinoru genus of yellow elves.

 

One thing that hindered the triumph of the God Learners was their fragmentation into different groups, each claiming to know the best way to achieve magical mastery over the world. Many of these playing around with native myths, some through clssical Zzaburi domination game over lesser entities which then serve as mediators for greater ones, others imitating native rites for ritual support for their breaking and entering. Few God Learners actually embraced the theist worship of their deities, one of the more successful of these were the founders of the cult of Caladra and Aurelion.

 

I would not hold my breath for Second Age sourcebooks from Chaosium, other than what was prepared in the Stafford Library for an earlier, less philosophical, more chuchy interpretation of Malkionism. And while some of the Second Age books by Mongoose expanded on material by Greg Stafford, few of the early ones received any attention by Greg (other than sending invoices for late license fees), and the later ones which started to pay attention to the 2nd Age material provided by Greg met the end of said license. There were two (early) Mongoose books on the God Learners, about Jrustela and the Clanking City, reprinting some of Greg's primer material and expanding it in unexpected directions, and of course some general information on their sorcery (not compatible with RQG or HQG).

[mfbrandi]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

[T]he God Learners dared … invent new [gods] from nothing just for sake of experimentation … The God Learner questers lacked both [humility and respect].

But that is why we love them. They might be jaded and cynical like Peggy Lee (apologies to Leiber & Stoller … and Thomas Mann):

    I remember when I was a very little GL
    Our lab caught on fire
    I’ll never forget the look on my tutor’s face
    As he gathered me up in his arms
    And raced through the burning building onto the pavement
    And I stood there shivering in my pyjamas
    And watched the whole world go up in flames
    And when it was all over I said to myself
    “Is that all there is to a fire?”

A fire, or even a god.

But on the other hand, they may be very serious monotheists making a point about what is god and what is not: “That is not God, it is just something I knocked up in my shed; it would be idolatry to show it the respect due God; Orlanth, Ernalda, and the rest are of the same kind — cobbled-together magical junk — and are owed no more respect.”

We love them, but we don’t want to be them … even if we are them.