Size reference

[Gwyndolin]

I know that Size as a characteristic is meant to be somewhat abstract but I was wondering if there is a resource that anyone uses to give context to size other than the object list in the brp.

For some players I am introducing to my setting I want to give them some average size values for humans and other things so they have some context when building their characters.

I also am struggling to give stats to certain creatures and robots that I am trying to make for my setting. 

Thanks very much.

[g33k]

"Humans" have a SIZ range of 3-18 (3d6), with an average of 10-11; "adults" have a SIZ range of 8-18 (2d6+6), with an average of 13 (I'm not at all clear that these numbers reflect achondroplasia & similar conditions).

If you're using the new BRP:UGE edition, you can find lots of SIZ info on pp. 188-190

You may wish to grab a product such as the old "Gateway Bestiary" (or one of the newer books for a BRP-based gamesystem, such as RQ's "Bestiary" or CoC's "Malleus Monstrorum").  A few exemplar-numbers from the GB:
 * regular bear 3d6+6 (16-17) // large bear 3d6+12 (22-23) // cave bear 3d6+18 (28-29)
 * sparrowhawk SIZ=1  // large hawk SIZ=3 // eagle 2d6 (7)
 * small dog 1d4 (2-3) // regular dog 1d6+1 (4-5) // large dog or wolf 3d6 (10-11)  

Don't forget the lessons of the human rolls (3d6 vs 2d6+6):  usually you should do something similar for adult animals vs. the entirety of a species population; so a "regular adult dog" might be 1d4+3 instead of 1d6+1 (the 1-3 range being puppies and not-fully-grown juveniles).

Feel free to further adjust as suits you or your campaign...  I'm a bit of a dog-nut;  the biggest big dogs are bigger than wolves, so (depending on the breed (lookin' atchu, mastiff/molosser breeds!) I might give them a +3, +4, +5, +6 on their 3d6 (edit -- upon reflection, the minimum rolls there are far too large for puppies, so scaling the die up, instead of the fixed bonus, might be better:  2d10+1, for example, or 2d12, etc).

Edited August 17, 2023 by g33k

[Atgxtg]

8 hours ago, Gwyndolin said:

I know that Size as a characteristic is meant to be somewhat abstract but I was wondering if there is a resource that anyone uses to give context to size other than the object list in the brp.

For some players I am introducing to my setting I want to give them some average size values for humans and other things so they have some context when building their characters.

I also am struggling to give stats to certain creatures and robots that I am trying to make for my setting. 

Thanks very much.

Yes there is. The SIZ table originated from the Superworld Boxed Set and uses a doubling progression of kg=2^(SIZ/8)*25, adjusted at the low end (below SIZ 10.)

SIZ	kg		SIZ	kg		SIZ	kg
0	1 kg		33	436 kg		66	7610 kg
1	2 kg		34	475 kg		67	8299 kg
2	3 kg		35	518 kg		68	9050 kg
3	4 kg		36	565 kg		69	9870 kg
4	7 kg		37	616 kg		70	10763 kg
5	10 kg		38	672 kg		71	11737 kg
6	15 kg		39	733 kg		72	12800 kg
7	20 kg		40	800 kg		73	13958 kg
8	30 kg		41	872 kg		74	15221 kg
9	39 kg		42	951 kg		75	16599 kg
10	59 kg		43	1037 kg		76	18101 kg
11	64 kg		44	1131 kg		77	19740 kg
12	70 kg		45	1233 kg		78	21526 kg
13	77 kg		46	1345 kg		79	23475 kg
14	84 kg		47	1467 kg		80	25600 kg
15	91 kg		48	1600 kg		81	27916 kg
16	100 kg		49	1744 kg		82	30443 kg
17	109 kg		50	1902 kg		83	33199 kg
18	118 kg		51	2074 kg		84	36203 kg
19	129 kg		52	2262 kg		85	39480 kg
20	141 kg		53	2467 kg		86	43053 kg
21	154 kg		54	2690 kg		87	46950 kg
22	168 kg		55	2934 kg		88	51200 kg
23	183 kg		56	3200 kg		89	55833 kg
24	200 kg		57	3489 kg		90	60887 kg
25	218 kg		58	3805 kg		91	66398 kg
26	237 kg		59	4149 kg		92	72407 kg
27	259 kg		60	4525 kg		93	78961 kg
28	282 kg		61	4935 kg		94	86107 kg
29	308 kg		62	5381 kg		95	93901 kg
30	336 kg		63	5868 kg		96	102400 kg
31	366 kg		64	6400 kg		97	111667 kg
32	400 kg		65	6979 kg		98	121774 kg

 

RQ 3 adjusted at the low (SIZ 1-7) and high (SIZ89+) ends,and COC adjusted it a bit more, but that is  the basic SIZ formula.

 

Note that this means that for every doubling of mass an creature (or object) would gain 8 points of SIZ. Or to put it another wway, if you increase the SIZ by 8 you double the mass. For other multiplier you can use the following table:

SIZ	Mass
0	1.00
1	1.09
2	1.19
3	1.30
4	1.41
5	1.54
6	1.68
7	1.83
8	2.00
9	2.18
10	2.38
11	2.59
12	2.83
13	3.08
14	3.36
15	3.67
16	4.00
17	4.36
18	4.76
19	5.19
20	5.66
21	6.17
22	6.73
23	7.34
24	8.00
25	8.72
26	9.51
27	10.37
28	11.31
29	12.34
30	13.45
31	14.67
32	16.00
33	17.45
34	19.03
35	20.75
36	22.63
37	24.68
38	26.91
39	29.34
40	32.00

 

Note that this is SIZ as mass, but you can kinda use it for volume too as living creatures tend to have a density (specific gravity) of 1, about the same as water. So you could use the above table and the specific gravity of a material to get a SIZ for an object. 

For example, marble has a specific gravity of around 2.83 (SIZ +12), lead an sg of  11.35 (SIZ+28), and gold  and sg of 19.3 (SIZ+34). 

So a Man sized (SIZ 13)  statue made of marble would be around SIZ 25 (13+12), one of lead would be SIZ 43 (13+28), and a golden one SIZ 47 (13+34). Note that all three would all be the same shape and have the same dimensions, but different masses (and weights).

 

 

[soltakss]

20 hours ago, Gwyndolin said:

I know that Size as a characteristic is meant to be somewhat abstract but I was wondering if there is a resource that anyone uses to give context to size other than the object list in the brp.

For me, I treat SIZ as Stones for normal humanish creatures. It works to a certain point. (1 Stone is 14 pounds or 6.35029 kilos). Just take the weight (or mass) of an object and convert it to stones to give the equivalent SIZ.

[Ian Absentia]

 

On 8/17/2023 at 5:45 AM, Gwyndolin said:

I know that Size as a characteristic is meant to be somewhat abstract but I was wondering if there is a resource that anyone uses to give context to size other than the object list in the brp.

So far it looks like you've gotten the usual references to weight and mass, which mean little in the context of the question: "I'm 6 feet tall - what SIZ am I?"  I seem to recall something somewhere for BRP-derived games that addressed SIZ as, you know, relative size, and not as a scientific quantity, but I can't think of where now.

Attached is a scan from White Dwarf #14 ('cause I'm old!), which will be sure to court controversy.  Though intended for D&D1e, it's height and weight tables for humanoids on a 3d6 scale.  I feel it's a little forgiving on the distal ends of the normal curve (I've personally know people much shorter and much taller than suggested), but it's a couple of tables that formed a foundation in my mind for several decades, and an interesting springboard for conversation.  I welcome the inevitable refutation!

On a personal note, I'm 6'2" and 185 lbs, and I somehow know that I'm SIZ 14, which might even be generous.  I honestly do not recall how I arrived at that number.

!i!

 

WD14_H-W.pdf

Edited August 18, 2023 by Ian Absentia
Wrong file!

[Ian Absentia]

Oh, duh-doi.  RQG, p.52.  Adventurer Sizes.  Which might suggest that I'm closer to SIZ 15.

!i!

Edited August 18, 2023 by Ian Absentia

[Atgxtg]

10 hours ago, soltakss said:

For me, I treat SIZ as Stones for normal humanish creatures. It works to a certain point. (1 Stone is 14 pounds or 6.35029 kilos). Just take the weight (or mass) of an object and convert it to stones to give the equivalent SIZ.

That is pretty much what Pendragon used to do. It works fine for characters on a 8-18 scale, but doesn't hold up well for larger objects or creatures, as it is linear, and SIZ isn't. Horses could easily surpass SIZ 50 or even SIZ 90 that way.

 

[DreadDomain]

For creatures, there is a nice table on page 203 of Pendragon 5.2. It says:

"Generally, a creature up to SIZ 10 weighs roughly 10 pounds per point of SIZ; thus, a SIZ 7 hound weighs about 70 pounds, give or take a few. Beyond SIZ 10, each number indicates a 10% increase over the previous value. Thus, a character of SIZ 15 weighs 10% more than one of SIZ 14." It follows with a table (example below)

SIZ 10 = 100lbs

SIZ 13 = 134lbs

SIZ 15 = 162lbs

SIZ 18= 216lbs

SI 42 = roughly 1 ton

SIZ 66 = roughly 10 tons

Siz 90 = Roughly 100 tons

What is nice with the table is that it has a constant, non-linear progression that does not have the non-sensical taper off at the end high. Each +7 or 8 SIZ doubles mass, each +24 or 25 multiplies it by 10. The drawback is that values are too low for average modern humans (on that chart Ian Absentia would be a 16 or a 17) and there are no relations to height.

Mythras also has a good chart with heights and weignts (p.9) where SIZ relates to height first and mass second. SIZ 10 gives 161 to 165 cm and each +1 SIZ (up to 21) gives another 5 cm (SIZ 21 is 216 to 220 cm). When it comes to SIZ, it gives a range where the lower part (lithe) increase per 5 kg each +1 SIZ and to upper range add 9 kg.

SIZ 10, 161 to 165cm, weight from 46 kg (lithe) to 90 kg (heavy)

SIZ 13, 176 to 180cm, weight from 61 kg to 117 kg.

Ian Absentia would be SIZ 15 with a build somewhere between lithe and medium.

The RQG Bestiary p.9 also has an extended list giving weight and height for humanoids up to SIZ 32. As usual, each +8 SIZ roughly doubles weight. It also gives a corresponding height. On this chart, if we rate Ian Absentia on weight, he would be SIZ 14 but on height, he would be SIZ 16.  

Note that the RQG table closely follows the mass progression of the Superworld chart given above by Atgxtg (at least at the lower end).

Edited August 18, 2023 by DreadDomain

[SDLeary]

5 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

SIZ 10 = 100lbs

SIZ 13 = 134lbs

SIZ 15 = 162lbs

SIZ 18= 216lbs

SI 42 = roughly 1 ton

 

Tis a bit off. While I meet the weight requirement here, there is no way I'm size 18, considering so many more larger than I. The progression is nice though; perhaps I'll fiddle with that a bit.

As for relation to weight/height, I'd just take what the average is for that weight, and extrapolate up and down a bit, but perhaps not with as much overlap as there currently is in the related tables.

SDLeary

Edited August 19, 2023 by SDLeary

[Ian Absentia]

9 hours ago, DreadDomain said:

Ian Absentia would be SIZ 15 with a build somewhere between lithe and medium.

The RQG Bestiary p.9 also has an extended list giving weight and height for humanoids up to SIZ 32. As usual, each +8 SIZ roughly doubles weight. It also gives a corresponding height. On this chart, if we rate Ian Absentia on weight, he would be SIZ 14 but on height, he would be SIZ 16.

Guilty as charged!  And I'd neglected the Mythras tables, which are quite good.  One of the things that emerges from these discussions is the realisation that BRP-adjacent SIZ scales best with that 3d6 range, then gets increasingly wonky as you approach either the very large or the very small.

!i!

Edited August 19, 2023 by Ian Absentia

[Gwyndolin]

Thank you all very much.

These are all extremely useful.

This definitly gives me a good idea of how to explain it to my players. I might even be able to make a visual list to represent a range of Size fro some of my more visual players.

 

Thanks, you are all the best ❤️

[g33k]

6 hours ago, Gwyndolin said:

Thank you all very much.

These are all extremely useful.

This definitly gives me a good idea of how to explain it to my players. I might even be able to make a visual list to represent a range of Size fro some of my more visual players.

 

Thanks, you are all the best ❤️

Note that visual (2-D) imagery will become increasingly odd/misleading v.s the 3-D / mass component, as you work your way up SIZ'es.

Also, for sci-fi, fantasy "golems" &c -- non-fleshy beings may get a HUGE mass-bump relative to their height & other volumetric SIZ'es...

[Atgxtg]

On 8/18/2023 at 6:20 PM, DreadDomain said:

For creatures, there is a nice table on page 203 of Pendragon 5.2. It says:

Yes Pendragon 5.2 uses a 10% increase per point of SIZ but Pendragon 5.2 SIZes are differernt from other BRP games. 

On 8/18/2023 at 6:20 PM, DreadDomain said:

"Generally, a creature up to SIZ 10 weighs roughly 10 pounds per point of SIZ; thus, a SIZ 7 hound weighs about 70 pounds, give or take a few. Beyond SIZ 10, each number indicates a 10% increase over the previous value. Thus, a character of SIZ 15 weighs 10% more than one of SIZ 14." It follows with a table (example below)

SIZ 10 = 100lbs

SIZ 13 = 134lbs

SIZ 15 = 162lbs

SIZ 18= 216lbs

SI 42 = roughly 1 ton

SIZ 66 = roughly 10 tons

Siz 90 = Roughly 100 tons

 

On 8/18/2023 at 6:20 PM, DreadDomain said:

What is nice with the table is that it has a constant, non-linear progression that does not have the non-sensical taper off at the end high.

Yes, exactly. THat's why I prefer the orginal Superworld SIZ table to the ones used in RQ3 or CoC. By using a constant progression it allows you to handle larger object and creatures without having to deal with enormous SIZ values, ans the required STR and CON stats to match. For example, a 20000 ton Godizlla only need to be around SIZ 157 instead of SIZ 2205 (per CoC), and a 50000 ton Iowa-class battleship would only need to be SIZ 168 or so.

On 8/18/2023 at 6:20 PM, DreadDomain said:

Each +7 or 8 SIZ doubles mass, each +24 or 25 multiplies it by 10. The drawback is that values are too low for average modern humans (on that chart Ian Absentia would be a 16 or a 17) and there are no relations to height.

SIZ values for PKs tend to be bigger in later editions of Pendragon compared to eariler ones. 

On 8/18/2023 at 6:20 PM, DreadDomain said:

The RQG Bestiary p.9 also has an extended list giving weight and height for humanoids up to SIZ 32. As usual, each +8 SIZ roughly doubles weight. It also gives a corresponding height. On this chart, if we rate Ian Absentia on weight, he would be SIZ 14 but on height, he would be SIZ 16.  

Way back in the RQ1/2 appendix Steve Perrin offered up the idea of separating SIZ into height and weight, and Stormbginer had differernt weights for character SIZes based on body frame. 

 

On 8/18/2023 at 6:20 PM, DreadDomain said:

Note that the RQG table closely follows the mass progression of the Superworld chart given above by Atgxtg (at least at the lower end).

Except for the Table for adventures on p.52, which seems to level out at +5 kg per point of SIZ. But that's sorta okay since we are only dealing with humanoid characters not everything.

 

I think that what table to use depends mostly on which creature stats you are using. If you use RQ stats then you should use one of the BRP/RQ SIZ tables that have creature stats on the same scale. Otherwise you will get dysfunctional results. For instance, a Lion in Pendragon is SIZ 40 (1745 lbs) vs SIZ 26 (238 kg/525 lbs) in BRP.  Also in Pendragon a Lion is a semi-heroic fabulous beast as opposed to a mundane animal, and that is reflected in it's game stats, where is is larger than a bull.

 

[Atgxtg]

On 8/19/2023 at 10:30 AM, Gwyndolin said:

Thank you all very much.

These are all extremely useful.

This definitly gives me a good idea of how to explain it to my players. I might even be able to make a visual list to represent a range of Size fro some of my more visual players.

 

Thanks, you are all the best ❤️

Glad to help. BTW, if you want a spreadsheet where you can plug in creatures or object and their weights and it shows you a SIZ stat, let me me know. 

[DreadDomain]

11 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

THat's why I prefer the orginal Superworld SIZ table to the ones used in RQ3 or CoC

Same here. The SW size table is still the best.

[Lurioso]

I found a table in RQ 6th Ed. 

https://imgur.com/a/2x2gCLZ

This table seems to be better suited for the new BRP system. Take for example a 16 meter tall giant from the core rule book. It has a size of 132 which would land it at well over two million kilograms according to the 2^(SIZ/8)*25 formula.

(But according to this table a giant of size 132 would only be around 7.7 meters tall so I guess they are both off. But I still think this table is a bit more helpful and a bit mor accurate.)

 

This updated table should make SIZ 132 equate to 16 meters and between 1211 and 2187 kilograms depending on what column you're using. This seems pretty resonable to me.

| SIZ | Height (cm) | Lithe (Kg) | Medium (Kg) | Heavy (Kg) |
| :-: | :---------: | :--------: | :---------: | :--------: |
|  1  |    1-45     |    1-5     |     1-7     |    1-9     |
|  2  |    46-80    |    6-10    |    8-14     |   10-18    |
|  3  |   81-105    |   11-15    |    15-21    |   19-27    |
|  4  |   106-120   |   16-20    |    22-28    |   28-36    |
|  5  |   121-130   |   21-25    |    29-35    |   37-45    |
|  6  |   131-140   |   26-30    |    36-42    |   46-54    |
|  7  |   141-150   |   31-35    |    43-49    |   55-63    |
|  8  |   151-155   |   36-40    |    50-56    |   64-72    |
|  9  |   156-160   |   41-45    |    57-63    |   73-81    |
| 10  |   161-165   |   46-50    |    64-70    |   82-90    |
| 11  |   166-170   |   51-55    |    71-77    |   91-99    |
| 12  |   171-175   |   56-60    |    78-84    |  100-108   |
| 13  |   176-180   |   61-65    |    85-91    |  109-117   |
| 14  |   181-185   |   66-70    |    92-98    |  118-126   |
| 15  |   186-190   |   71-75    |   99-105    |  127-135   |
| 16  |   191-195   |   76-80    |   106-112   |  136-144   |
| 17  |   196-200   |   81-85    |   113-119   |  145-153   |
| 18  |   201-205   |   86-90    |   120-126   |  154-162   |
| 19  |   206-210   |   91-95    |   127-133   |  163-171   |
| 20  |   211-215   |   96-100   |   134-140   |  172-180   |
| 21  |   216-220   |  101-105   |   141-147   |  181-189   |
| +1  |   +12 cm    |   +10 Kg   |   +14 Kg    |   +18 Kg   |

Edited April 23 by Lurioso
Updated post with modified table