Replenishing Rune Points while Rune spell is running

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

 So Bless Childbirth seems to me to be very desirable, not magic whose acquisition would be minimized

Say what you want about the HW subcults, at least they offered som solid niche protection. You want a fetus blessed, you need a worshiper of Eninta the Midwife.

[Jose-san]

I'm sorry if it's obvious but I'm not getting this phrase in the Spell Trading description:

"The Rune points used to trade a Rune spell can be replenished in the regular fashion"

What does it mean exactly?

 

[Steve]

3 hours ago, Jose-san said:

"The Rune points used to trade a Rune spell can be replenished in the regular fashion"

What does it mean exactly?

 

Spell Trading is a bit of a mess and hasn't really been properly updated to reflect what "one-use" means these days. There are a whole bunch of open questions on it in the Q&A thread:

 

[Nick Brooke]

On 9/30/2023 at 7:21 AM, Jose-san said:

I'm sorry if it's obvious but I'm not getting this phrase in the Spell Trading description:

"The Rune points used to trade a Rune spell can be replenished in the regular fashion"

What does it mean exactly?

If you traded a Rune spell to somebody else, you don't have to wait until the recipient casts it to replenish your Rune points for that spell.

If you're the Issaries merchant who facilitated the trade, you don't have to wait until the recipient casts it to replenish the two Rune points you used for Spell Trading.

If you traded a one-use Rune spell to somebody else, you don't get to replenish those Rune points: they were spent when you made the trade. (The spell description talks confusingly about "one-use spells" but in RQG terms it means the Rune points used to cast them.)

[Jose-san]

10 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

If you traded a Rune spell to somebody else, you don't have to wait until the recipient casts it to replenish your Rune points for that spell.

If you're the Issaries merchant who facilitated the trade, you don't have to wait until the recipient casts it to replenish the two Rune points you used for Spell Trading.

If you traded a one-use Rune spell to somebody else, you don't get to replenish those Rune points: they were spent when you made the trade. (The spell description talks confusingly about "one-use spells" but in RQG terms it means the Rune points used to cast them.)

So, if I understand it right, in game terms, Spell Trading is super powerful. And an Issaries priest can potentially amass a great deal of spells. Particularly because every Wildday is a minor holy day...

[Squaredeal Sten]

49 minutes ago, Jose-san said:

So, if I understand it right, in game terms, Spell Trading is super powerful. And an Issaries priest can potentially amass a great deal of spells. Particularly because every Wildday is a minor holy day...

Yes.  However it does have dpwnsides:

(1) As I read it this is  oriented to trades between two other parties, facilitated by the Issarirs priest.

(2) If the IIssaries trades spells on his own account, my own question is whether and how he is limited by his CHA, as he is with his inventory of his own kmown Issaries spells.

(3) It has some risk:   If the person castng the spell fumbles. it is cast on the recipient rather than traded.  That's just a financial loss if the spell was Bless Pregnancy, but could be fatal if it was 3 points of Ligtming.

 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

14 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

If you traded a Rune spell to somebody else, you don't have to wait until the recipient casts it to replenish your Rune points for that spell.

I'm 99% sure this is correct, though the text is slightly unclear and I can argue myself the other way once ins a while.  🙂

However, this is so clearly broken and abusable by munchkins that no GM should allow this.  Otherwise PCs sit around trading spells for a season or so and they will all end up with access to dozens and dozens of extra rune spells.

[Nick Brooke]

7 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Yes.  However it does have downsides:

(1) As I read it this is oriented to trades between two other parties, facilitated by the Issaries priest.

Re-read it. The other Rune master participating in the trade passes their spell to the Issaries priest who cast the spell: nobody else. If that Issaries priest wants to pass it on to somebody else afterwards, that requires a second casting of Spell Trading (and a second profitable trade).

[Nick Brooke]

5 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

However, this is so clearly broken and abusable by munchkins that no GM should allow this.  Otherwise PCs sit around trading spells for a season or so and they will all end up with access to dozens and dozens of extra rune spells.

"No cult trades special cult magic lightly." GMs can hammer abusive munchkins who try it on: "Nope, no way he's going to trade you that spell." The spell description tells you that outside the core Lightbringer pantheon, you usually need to get a High Priest's permission to trade spells to foreigners. And that spells adventure opportunities! ("Yes, the Sword will trade you Humakt's sacred Rune spells, if you first join him on a doomed expedition into the Upland Marsh to prove your worth...")

Meanwhile, if your adventurers have "sat around trading spells" (and spending Rune points every time, let's not forget) for a whole season, hit them with troll raiders just before their next holy day lets them replenish. The survivors will thank you for the lesson.

And the Issaries priest facilitating this munchkinism is getting richer with every trade: it's his religious obligation to do so. Ka-ching! 

[Nick Brooke]

7 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

(3) It has some risk:   If the person casting the spell fumbles. it is cast on the recipient rather than traded.  That's just a financial loss if the spell was Bless Pregnancy...

Oh, I disagree: MGF requires that the intended recipient of the spell will now have a blessed pregnancy. There's an immediate financial loss, yes, but it's followed by an ongoing financial drain (and various other irritations) until your kid finally grows up and leaves home.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

10 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

hit them with troll raiders just before their next holy day lets them replenish

Between associate cults and minor holy days, many PCs can easily recover 5 rune points a week.

More importantly, why force GMs to "hammer" players and "hit them" to teach them a "lesson"?  Write better rules.  Write rules that require less GM thought, less need for them to punish players who abuse them, and, on the other side, less need to wave hands to help the players with many other rules (e.g. 90% tithes) against them.

Edited October 2 by Rodney Dangerduck

[Squaredeal Sten]

10 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Re-read it. The other Rune master participating in the trade passes their spell to the Issaries priest who cast the spell: nobody else. If that Issaries priest wants to pass it on to somebody else afterwards, that requires a second casting of Spell Trading (and a second profitable trade).

You're right, it does say 'the caster'.

That also seems to me to be an additional limit on someone wanting to go into the spell trading business in a big way: To eventually sell your spell, you need to risk a fumble a second time.    And of course you have to spend two rune points to get the spell and another two to sell it.   Despite the weekly market holy day, which will restore 4 RPs on average, that does seem to me to limit the size of the business:  It's only one such sale and resale per week. 

And that assumes the adventurer won't have other uses for the rune points.  When did we ever see an adventurer who didn't have other uses for the rune points?

 

 

 

[Nick Brooke]

2 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Why force GMs to "hammer" players and "hit them" to teach them a "lesson"?  Write better rules.  Write rules that require less GM thought, less need for them to punish players who abuse them, and, on the other side, less need to wave hands to help the players with many other rules (e.g. 90% tithes) against them.

I don’t write the rules: I help people understand how to use them. You’re the one who called players “abusive munchkins.” I showed you some ways a competent GM can easily deal with players like that, by using the spell description as written. Maybe you need a competent GM to rein you in?

[Rodney Dangerduck]

3 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

You’re the one who called players “abusive munchkins.”

No.  If you are going to quote me, please do so correctly.  The quote was "abusable by munchkins".

3 hours ago, Nick Brooke said:

Maybe you need a competent GM to rein you in?

The group as a whole is reining themselves in.  We looked at the Spell Trading rules and agreed to change them - the rune points traded, other than for the Spell Trading spell itself, are not regainable.  Likewise, we reined in the new very generous Rune Lord D.I. rules, at least as far as stat increases.