Replenishing Rune Points while Rune spell is running

[Squaredeal Sten]

I have seen it confidently and repeatedly stated that while a rune spell is "up and running", in other words a spell with duration is in effect, the rune point(s) used for it cannot all be replenished.

This raises its head not only when the adventurers are worshiping under a Sanctify spell, but also when spells such as Bless Pregnancy, Bless Crops, or Bless Champion are cast. Also, presumably when an Issaries Create Market is cast.

But i cannot reference that assertion in the RQiG rues, nor in the Q&A in Well of Daliath.  Not in RQiG page 315 Replenishing Rune points.  Not on page 244 under Worship. 

Is that just someone's house rule, or is it actually an official written rule, or derivable from the written rules?  If so, how and where?

[Nick Brooke]

It makes perfect sense to me. Consider Extension.

[Rodney Dangerduck]

Bless Crops is Instant, so should be recoverable.  As for most of the longer ones, I'm with @Nick Brooke, it "makes sense", though I agree with OP that this could be clearer in the rules.

The tricky one for me is Bless Pregnancy - whether it is recoverable affects the rune economy and Glorantha background.  Not so much typical heroic day to day adventures.

 1) If it is recoverable, this should be noted in the rules as an exception.

 2) If not, it means that a woman of child bearing age cannot rely on their local Ernaldan Priestess for the spell.  Therefore, most all Ernaldan NPCs will have sacrificed 1 extra POW to get up to at least 2 rune points, so as to have access to this spell for themselves, or for their close friends or family.

[Malin]

6 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Bless Crops is Instant

Is it? It says Duration (special) just as Pregnacy. Bless Animal is instant however...

[Rodney Dangerduck]

2 minutes ago, Malin said:

Is it? It says Duration (special) just as Pregnacy. Bless Animal is instant however...

Hmm, in the core rules (at least the version I have) it is Instant.  In Red Book of Magic it is Duration (special).

[Malin]

I looked in the Red Book of Magic, so that explains it!

EDIT: And a correction has it as "ritual"

Edited September 24, 2023 by Malin

[PhilHibbs]

10 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I have seen it confidently and repeatedly stated that while a rune spell is "up and running", in other words a spell with duration is in effect, the rune point(s) used for it cannot all be replenished.

...

Is that just someone's house rule, or is it actually an official written rule, or derivable from the written rules?  If so, how and where?

I think it's in "Rune Fixes"...

Yep:

https://www.chaosium.com/runequest-rune-fixes/

It's also in the official Q&A corrections:

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-qa-by-chapter/cha4028-runequest-roleplaying-in-glorantha-chapter-14-rune-magic-spells/

Edited September 24, 2023 by PhilHibbs

[Squaredeal Sten]

Thanks, Phil Hibbs.

 

[Akhôrahil]

This fix was extremely necessary. Before it, Extension was simply massively abusable.

(Bless Crops as Instant already mentioned, I saw when continuing reading.)

Edited September 24, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Squaredeal Sten]

I will say that  Bless Crops must be what accounts for the productivity of Gloranthan agriculture , and applying this rule  to the Blessing spells means that every stead had better  have an Ernaldan or two with Bless Crops,

- or really needs a generous neighbor who will extend her blessings.  Those blessings should return big obligations and social status too.

An Ernaldan in the farming occupation who does not take the blessing rune spells first, seems to me to be a power gamer from that time forward. 

As for the warrior's / thane's / chieftain's wife,  she really needs Bless Champion and/or Earth Shield, and enough RPs to cast Extension, if she does not want to be a widow.  Add in blessing crops for the tenants of five hides, and blessing pregnancies, maybe Healing Body, a Household Guardian, , and she should sacrifice a lot of POWer.  We are not talking  about 1-point initiates here.

The other side of this is that NPC Ernaldans' MPs should normally be lower than their POW.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

18 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

If not, it means that a woman of child bearing age cannot rely on their local Ernaldan Priestess for the spell.  Therefore, most all Ernaldan NPCs will have sacrificed 1 extra POW to get up to at least 2 rune points, so as to have access to this spell for themselves, or for their close friends or family.

I think this option very fine by the way. And it explains why all pregnancies are not blessed, but only "happy few"

[Akhôrahil]

2 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

I think this option very fine by the way. And it explains why all pregnancies are not blessed, but only "happy few"

I would imagine that a majority is blessed with at least 1 point, though - this doesn't produce any supermen, but it seems like a no-brainer to drop one POW into 1 Rune Point + Bless Pregnancy the first time if no-one else is doing it for you and to cast at least one point's worth of Bless Pregnancy, even if it does lock up that Rune Point for two-thirds of a year. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

Just now, Akhôrahil said:

I would imagine that a majority is blessed with at least 1 point, though - this doesn't produce any supermen, but it seems like a no-brainer to drop one POW into 1 Rune Point + Bless Pregnancy the first time if no-one else is doing it for you and to cast at least one point's worth of Bless Pregnancy, even if it does lock up that Rune Point for two-thirds of a year. 

however, what about people (community) who don't worship any deity providing this spells ? Is there any statistic difference ? Are malkioni weaker than ernaldan countries ?

Or is Ernalda worshipped every where, with the same ratio ?

it is "no brain" if you consider it from an irl player perspective. But if you consider it as an opportunity offered by Ernalda and only chosen women can learn it (aka that is not pc who decide what is learnt but only p-layers for their play/pleasure) there is no question of brain then 🙂

[Akhôrahil]

3 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

however, what about people (community) who don't worship any deity providing this spells ? Is there any statistic difference ? Are malkioni weaker than ernaldan countries ?

Or is Ernalda worshipped every where, with the same ratio ?

it is "no brain" if you consider it from an irl player perspective. But if you consider it as an opportunity offered by Ernalda and only chosen women can learn it (aka that is not pc who decide what is learnt but only p-layers for their play/pleasure) there is no question of brain then 🙂

In Orlanthi society, I would imagine the percentage corresponds roughly with how many are initiated to Ernalda, which is probably something like 70% among women of fertile age? Which in turns correspond to about the percentage of Free or higher social class. And there's been a move away from having "Wizard magic only" in the West, towards all kinds of lesser cults among the people. I would imagine a substantial percentage of (human) women everywhere in Glorantha have access to various pregnancy-boosting magic. 

If somehow Bless Pregnancy isn't available to the regular initiate (why?) then things change, but in that case, it will instead create a demand for the spell from those who have it. I mean, one measly point of Rune Magic for two thirds of a year to secure the health of the mother and the child and avoid pains and complications, that seems like a fantastic deal. If somehow only a few percent of the population has access to it, then it should still be very common to see it cast.

[Squaredeal Sten]

9 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

however, what about people (community) who don't worship any deity providing this spells ? Is there any statistic difference ? Are malkioni weaker than ernaldan countries ?

Or is Ernalda worshipped every where, with the same ratio ?

it is "no brain" if you consider it from an irl player perspective. But if you consider it as an opportunity offered by Ernalda and only chosen women can learn it (aka that is not pc who decide what is learnt but only p-layers for their play/pleasure) there is no question of brain then 🙂

I have read more about Malkionism than I absorbed, so I don't pose as an authority.  But there seem to be strict and loose sects of Malkioni.  The strict ones not dealing with gods, and the loose ones using gods.

I can see at least three possibilities:

1- Strict Malkionism with No childbirth magic.  Worse childbirth outcomes limit the sect's population growth and recovery from disasters.  Sect has limited influence in the world.  People who see that there are better ways to live, leave, perhaps to be less strict, perhaps to be theists or shamanists.

2- Strict Malkionism, but Wizards create childbirth sorcery. (Not in RQiG rules example spells, but we have been told what is in the rulebook is a truncated version of sorcery for Lhankor Mhy.)

3- Loose Malkionists worship Ernalda, or know someone who does.  They use what works for them.  This practicality gives us the Esvulari of Heortland, if I understand them correctly.

 

Edited September 25, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
Spelling / typing

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

In Orlanthi society, I would imagine the percentage corresponds roughly with how many are initiated to Ernalda, which is probably something like 70% among women of fertile age? Which in turns correspond to about the percentage of Free or higher social class. And there's been a move away from having "Wizard magic only" in the West, towards all kinds of lesser cults among the people.

you know how low my knowledge is compared for other, I use the west as the "weirdos" compared with Esrolia/Sartar. I don't see clearly how Peloria works among the non lunar cults. But let's talk about praxian for example:

Eiritha has not the spell and not any spell helping it. It means a very large % of praxian women have not access fot themselve to this spell. But we have nothing (well, what I know) about any difference between sartarite and praxian distribution. Children and women be less in Prax than in Sartar.

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

If somehow Bless Pregnancy isn't available to the regular initiate (why?)

why not 😛 I m just looking for a reason explaining why I don't see any difference (again there may be a difference I don't know)  between people with Ernalda "support" and those without/with less when this spell should demonstrate a true difference if everyone could gain its benefit.

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

then things change, but in that case, it will instead create a demand for the spell from those who have it. I mean, one measly point of Rune Magic for two thirds of a year to secure the health of the mother and the child and avoid pains and complications, that seems like a fantastic deal.

I agree, and I would add "for a fantastic cost" (not POW but cow, mmm am I good in english  poetry ? 🙂 )

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

If somehow only a few percent of the population has access to it, then it should still be very common to see it cast.

not sure of that... let's say that 1% of women can cast it. Let's say that they can cast it 3 times a year (so a lot of pow dedicated to it) It just means 3% of mothers of the year can gain it. So common as anyone knows Ernalda, sometimes, bless the mothers, but not common as anyone can obtain it. It seems to me that only those with enough network (aka noble or bloodine leaders) may obtain it from the temple. After all, even in this " fair culture compared to yelmic tyranny", you find slaves and this adage (don't remember exactly) about hero with blood of heroes (so hero with blood of family able to pay bless pregnancy ^^)

something like "look how our chief's baby is blessed by the gods, we are so lucky to have our chief, our poor people  the gods don't take care so much."

but I may be totally wrong.

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

2- Strict Malkionism, but Wizards create childbirth sorcery. (Not in RQiG rules example spells, but we have been told what is in the rulebook is a truncated version of sorcery for Lhankor Mhy.)

I agree, west was an example about those I m sure (or not), there is less Ernalda, but poor example for your reason. I found prax then 😛

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

but I may be totally wrong.

🙂  I think so

Historically, mothers died in 1-2% of births (each birth) , and roughly a quarter of all children didn't make it to a year old.  (Not sure how many died shortly after childbirth vs. later)

If this could be fixed with a fairly common 2 point spell, which also, oh, nice little side benefit, eases the pains and sicknesses of her condition, I really think that everybody would do it.

[Akhôrahil]

2 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

not sure of that... let's say that 1% of women can cast it. Let's say that they can cast it 3 times a year (so a lot of pow dedicated to it) It just means 3% of mothers of the year can gain it.

Only if you assume all women get pregnant every year throughout their adult life. 🙂 This does not seem like any Glorantha I know.

Take the following math instead: Women who receive Bless Pregnancy only need three pregnancies to bear 4,65 children, which is well above replacement level assuming the 50% child mortality before 15 that the rulebook suggests. At this point, it takes very mild adjustments to your numbers to secure it for everyone - even just 2% dedicated midwives who put in 4-5 Rune Points per year.

Edited September 25, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[radmonger]

4 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

I can see at least three possibilities:

There's a 4th; be immortal, so childbirth is rare enough that enabling it isn't a full time occupation 

The Brithini Zzaburi  claim to provide  full magical support for all 4 caste roles, and so have no need to resort to uncontrolled runic personifications. Asking them about 5th caste, the Menena, is inadvisable. Asking them why the Mostali have at least another 3 castes is positively unwise....

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Only if you assume all women get pregnant every year throughout their adult life. 🙂 This does not seem like any Glorantha I know.

you are right, it was not what I thought, but clearly I made a stat mistake then 😛

I have to agree with you then 😉 ... about Ernalda's lands; few are probably enough

 

but there is then no explanation why we don't see any difference between Prax and Esrolia/Sartar. (that's the other point @Rodney Dangerduck your figure seems to me very important, enough to see a difference between communities with this spell and community without it)

Not convinced by "there should be other magic there" because in that case, why the Ernalda spell is proposed and not others.

of course the last option is mgf and that's all 😛

[Squaredeal Sten]

18 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

🙂  I think so

Historically, mothers died in 1-2% of births (each birth) , ...

That maternal death figure seems low considering the anecdotal info in biographies.  Yes it is anecdotal.

But there is this info:  https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3511335/

and this https://www.brandeis.edu/now/2023/may/mothers-day.html#:~:text=Most historians agree that child,from complications related to childbirth.

indicates a 30% cumulative probability of death in childbirth in ancient Greece.  Of course the rate per individual pregnancy is much lower.  But if I assume fertility from age 16 to 35 and pregnancy one third of the time, that would be about 7 pregnancies in a full life, which seems to match your child survival rate and replacement assumptions fairly well.  That indicates a per- birth rate of maternal death over 4%. 

Anyway the 30% cumulative is pretty daunting for me, a man.  And reminds me unpleasantly of my wife's experience with our first child: a 10 hour labor and Caesarian, she (the baby)  wasn't turned right.  So Bless Childbirth seems to me to be very desirable, not magic whose acquisition would be minimized in the fashion that large corporations have been minimizing hospital beds to minimize " excess capacity" in the RW.  Which turned out to be unexpectedly risky in recent years, indicating that minimizing investment does not minimize tragedy.  

Edited September 26, 2023 by Squaredeal Sten
added links and last paragraph.

[Malin]

I looked around, and if you don't want to tie up all your rune points in Pregnacy as an Ernalda worshipper, you can always do Birthing for 1 rune point once you get close to the point. That takes care of most birth issues.

[PhilHibbs]

Or, trade the spell to an Issaries and get them to cast it. No rune points tied up!

[Akhôrahil]

6 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Or, trade the spell to an Issaries and get them to cast it. No rune points tied up!

True. Spell Trading is the solution for everything, tbh. Also exceptional to avoid the "oh noes, none of the CA healers have any Rune Points to spare for a Resurrection", as well as bypassing most every CHA limit on Rune Points. Almost certainly the best spell in the game.

Edited September 26, 2023 by Akhôrahil