zzaburi perspective of the invisible god

[French Desperate WindChild]

 

it may depends on the sect, and it would interest me to know the differences

 

Do zzaburi believe that the invisible god is a "real god" (greater than any other entity of course)= sentient, able to decide, to act

• then its worship is useful to "feed" it and obtain some magic/miracle from it

 

Do zzaburi believe that the invisible god is far beyond any gods of glorantha = sentient (the creator decided to create glorantha, for example), but will never (maybe some exception) act in glorantha ?

• then its worship by the people is useful to "feed" the universe and/or the zzaburi themselves

 

Do zzaburi believe that the invisible god is an abstraction, the nature, the universe laws, equations, things like that

• then its worship is just a kind of crowd manipulation to convince the people to feed the cosmos (because zzaburi believe it is needed but they are convinced that a too large part of people will refuse to sacrifice if they knew there is no "feedback") and they may take a part of the sacrifice for themselves ?
• or its worship is a very big crowd manipulation to convince the people to sacrifice (mp/POW/cows) to themselves because in fact... there is nothing to feed and zzaburi are the only option to "protect" the people from strangers (people, spirits and gods) ?

Edited September 27, 2023 by French Desperate WindChild

[mfbrandi]

Off the top of my head, and not to be taken as canon.

The zzaburi think:

• the IG is too far away for your feeble spirits to push POW to it
• the IG doesn’t need your POW
• if there is POW on offer, we’ll have that — cheers, mate! — but don’t call it “tapping” (if we’re a non-tapping sect)

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Do zzaburi believe that the invisible god is a "real god" (greater than any other entity of course)= sentient, able to decide, to act

• then its worship is useful to "feed" it and obtain some magic/miracle from it

The Invisible God is the collective intellects of the Wizards on the God Plane.  It acts through them.  It is an error to worship the Invisible God in the same way it is an error to worship yourself.  People have spoken of a magic spell called "worship Invisible God".  That is more like a charitable contribution to the upkeep of the Wizards.  

 

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Do zzaburi believe that the invisible god is far beyond any gods of glorantha = sentient (the creator decided to create glorantha, for example), but will never (maybe some exception) act in glorantha ?

• then its worship by the people is useful to "feed" the universe and/or the zzaburi themselves

The Invisible God is always acting at all levels.  At the highest level, he is the Creator.  At the lowest level, he is the Wizard casting a spell on you.

 

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Do zzaburi believe that the invisible god is an abstraction, the nature, the universe laws, equations, things like that

• then its worship is just a kind of crowd manipulation to convince the people to feed the cosmos (because zzaburi believe it is needed but they are convinced that a too large part of people will refuse to sacrifice if they knew there is no "feedback") and they may take a part of the sacrifice for themselves ?
• or its worship is a very big crowd manipulation to convince the people to sacrifice (mp/POW/cows) to themselves because in fact... there is nothing to feed and zzaburi are the only option to "protect" the people from strangers (people, spirits and gods) ?

The Invisible God is by definition Abstract.  This is not a matter of belief.  Its existence can be magically proven without the need for a priori belief.  It always gives feedback.  

[French Desperate WindChild]

Thanks a lot @metcalph even if I needed a lot of time to understand the depth of your answer (I m too Cartesian to measure all the involvements)

it is hard then😅

So one question 

when you talk about Wizards, do you talk about anyone able to use sorcery maybe with enough skill level / requirements) like LM or lunars or Orlanth or Zorak Zoran or… sorcerers or only the zzaburi (only those who follow one sect of Malkioni ?)

 

[metcalph]

22 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

when you talk about Wizards, do you talk about anyone able to use sorcery maybe with enough skill level / requirements) like LM or lunars or Orlanth or Zorak Zoran or… sorcerers or only the zzaburi (only those who follow one sect of Malkioni ?)

I use Wizards rather than your original question of Zzaburi to avoid confusion.  Looking at the RuneQuest: Glorantha rules, I would say that people who have learned a rune or technique are part of the Invisible God and that people who have only learned a sorcery spell are not.  At this definition the Lhankorings and the Zorak Zorani who have the appropriate understanding are with the Invisible God.  

Many human sects would adopt a more restricted definition which largely hinges on their cult likes and dislikes.  Thus a Rokari would not consider an Arkati or a Lhankoring as a fellow worshipper of the Invisible God.

[davecake]

On 9/28/2023 at 3:03 AM, metcalph said:

The Invisible God is the collective intellects of the Wizards on the God Plane.  It acts through them.

The Invisible God of Everyone on the God plane. The wizards are just the ones who are fully aware of it. The Invisible God is the One. If it was only some people, it wouldn’t be the One. 

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, davecake said:

The Invisible God of Everyone on the God plane. The wizards are just the ones who are fully aware of it. The Invisible God is the One. If it was only some people, it wouldn’t be the One. 

Given the requirement of Henosis to become a Hrestoli Man of All, it could be argued that they are as much a part of the mind of the Invisible God as the sorcerers. And recipients of Joy (as per the Hrestoli definition) should count as well, whether they have mastered the four trades or not.

The Rokari sorcerers seem to want to abolish a lot of the Hrestoli flimflammery of non-wizards intruding into the sorcerous realm of oneness with the Creator.

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 9/27/2023 at 9:03 PM, metcalph said:

the collective intellects of

3 hours ago, davecake said:

The Invisible God is the One

20 minutes ago, Joerg said:

realm of oneness with the Creator.

you all are talking about this one. that seems to me recurrent in glorantha (draconic mysticism, maybe any mysticism) and that is something I'm so far (culture, education, studies, etc...)... I don't "feel" / "understand" what it implies, except that I feel I miss something important in my favorite world.

do you have some references/books explaining this philosophy (or school of thought, or any good term, no offense) ?

 something for people who did not take any theology course and have a too old brain to understand it easily  🙂 !

[mfbrandi]

2 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

do you have some references/books explaining this philosophy (or school of thought, or any good term, no offense) ?

Start here?

Then, if you are brave, here.

I think the idea is that the Gloranthan West has its share of Neoplatonic mystics — as did real-life Abrahamic religions, I believe. I doubt that — for normal gaming purposes — one needs to understand it deeply.

[Qizilbashwoman]

Just now, mfbrandi said:

as did real-life Abrahamic religions, I believe

they still do. levantine muslims groups, for example, and all ismailis. druze and alevis even believe in neoplatonic reincarnation (called in arabic "reshirting": taqummis < qamis < latin camisa "shirt"

[Jeff]

On 10/2/2023 at 10:10 AM, mfbrandi said:

Start here?

Then, if you are brave, here.

I think the idea is that the Gloranthan West has its share of Neoplatonic mystics — as did real-life Abrahamic religions, I believe. I doubt that — for normal gaming purposes — one needs to understand it deeply.

Oh I think the Gloranthan West has more than its share of Neoplatonic mystics (as well as more down to earth Platonists and Aristotleans).

Edited October 3, 2023 by Jeff