MERP converted into BRP?

[svensson]

Well, just like with RQ, we have multiple interpretations to work with. We have the core books and appendices as hard, fast Canon, we have the various interpretations from games, the LOTRO game etc. But for sake of this discussion we'll keep it to JRRT's work.

Several races craft magic items... Elves, Dwarves, the Dunedain and their successors are all capable of it. All three seem to be capable of ritual magics like divination and concealment /illusions.

As to the Necromancer, that was Sauron and he is of the same class and power as the Istari [Gandalf, Saruman, and company]. All of them are Maiar, lesser spirits present at Creation who are in service to greater spirits, the Valar. The Valar hold roles similar to gods and goddesses, while the great[est] being is Eru, the One, the source of the spark of creation. Eru is not worshiped much, at least not directly. Only the Numenoreans are mentioned in worshiping him by name and even then it was only the Crown who did so once a year.

But all this does not fit into the spell-slinging tropes of the classic DnD or RQ game.

[Atgxtg]

4 hours ago, svensson said:

Magic is LOTR is both pervasive and very, very subtle. Very few fireballs are flung about and there are only 5 'wizards'... and even they are actually demi-gods given mortal form.

So how do you folks see magic in Middle Earth in a BRP format?

One of the things abort MERP is that while ICE did a fairly good and faithful job description Middle Earth and the peoples therein, they sort of overlaid it with a typical FRPG game system that doesn't fit the setting. You can see it in the character writeups, with all the characters having weapons and armor with magical bonuses and such.In Tolkien String is a rare and wondrous weapon, in the MERP/RM character writeups all the fellowship and other characters mentioned in the stories probably has a magical weapon, or at least one with a good bonus. 

I think both the LOTR RPG by Decipher and The One Ring by Cubicle 7 do a better job of getting the feel of the low keyed nature of the magic of Middle Earth.

 

In BRP terms I think most characters probably shouldn't have any magic to speak of, perhaps the odd witch of hedge magician. Dwarves would probably be able to craft some magical items, and elves would have much more, but there wouldn't be much in the way of D&D style fireball type spells. Just look at how limited Gandalf's capabilities are in the books compared to that of a typical FRPG wizard or his capabilities in MERP. 

 

If a GM want's to be true tot he setting then, they would need to scale down the magic, and BRP allows for that, with skills and other areas that the PCs can focus on. But, if a GM wants a more typical FRPG game, he will have to diverge somewhat from the source material.

[svensson]

Well, I'll happily give you that 'ChartMaster' was a lousy system to work with. Even the various watered down versions were cumbersome.

I think, however, that many of the starting character magic items might be considered Fine to Exceptional quality normal weapons, 'masterwork' if you will, rather than actual Magic Items on par with Sting or Glamdring. Even the Numenorean daggers that Merry, Pippin, and Sam got after Aragorn rescued them from the Barrow Wight had some extra 'oomph' to them compared to the local but perfectly serviceable manufacture.

As to spells themselves, you illustrate my points. While some beings who are absolutely dedicated to destruction but who are not born within Ea [Elves, Dwarves, even the Ringwraiths] might be able to cast direct damage spells, pretty much no other beings can.

[g33k]

1 hour ago, svensson said:

... As to the Necromancer, that was Sauron and he is of the same class and power as the Istari [Gandalf, Saruman, and company]. All of them are Maiar...

Yes, the Necromancer was Sauron, a Maia (a MUCH more powerful one than any of the Istari, but still).

However, the Council (the most ancient, wise, & powerful elves left in Middle Earth, and the 5 Istari) knew of "the Necromancer" for YEARS before they knew he was Sauron.  Had they known he was Sauron -- or ANY of the Maiar -- they'd have acted MUCH sooner.

So they thought he was some lesser being... But what?  A renegade Elf?  A Black Numenorean?  And they just gave THAT free rein?  I don't think so!

All the JRRT-canonical ideas I can come up with are worth a MUCH more worried and pro-active attitude (despite Saruman's wait-and-see advice).

I can only conclude that an ordinary Man, not even one with any notable degree of Dunedain/Numenorean blood, might reasonably be supposed to be this "Necromancer."  That magic (at least necromancy) must be accessible to Men.

YMEMV.

 

[Richard S.]

If we're talking middle earth magic, it is true that many men under Sauron did learn sorcery and other black arts, as shown by the Mouth. We also know that the elves had a great deal of magic, which we see very distinctly used by the wood elves in the Hobbit, and the Dwarves could make items that were so wonderful that they must've been magic of a kind. Gandalf also references words of power or something like that when they're trying to enter Moria, so those could be another form of magic. On the whole, though, save for sorcery which is portrayed as universally evil, magic in Middle Earth is more of an innate talent than book-learned spells, and is also far more subtle than the flashy fireballs and lightning spells we're used to from other fantasy.

[svensson]

59 minutes ago, g33k said:

Yes, the Necromancer was Sauron, a Maia (a MUCH more powerful one than any of the Istari, but still).

However, the Council (the most ancient, wise, & powerful elves left in Middle Earth, and the 5 Istari) knew of "the Necromancer" for YEARS before they knew he was Sauron.  Had they known he was Sauron -- or ANY of the Maiar -- they'd have acted MUCH sooner.

So they thought he was some lesser being... But what?  A renegade Elf?  A Black Numenorean?  And they just gave THAT free rein?  I don't think so!

All the JRRT-canonical ideas I can come up with are worth a MUCH more worried and pro-active attitude (despite Saruman's wait-and-see advice).

I can only conclude that an ordinary Man, not even one with any notable degree of Dunedain/Numenorean blood, might reasonably be supposed to be this "Necromancer."  That magic (at least necromancy) must be accessible to Men.

YMEMV.

 

YMEMV, indeed.

In the case of the White Council [which was made up of literally the wisest and most knowledgeable people available] discussing the Necromancer of Dol Guldur, I think there was also an attitude of denial to their discussions. By the time the White Council began to discuss the Necromancer Arnor had long since fallen, Gondor was a shadow of its former self [its King dead, the Numenorean blood running increasingly thin, beset on every front by enemies and no help to be had], Khazad-Dum was gone and the six other Dwarf Kindreds scattered. The Last Alliance of Elves and Men had defeated a fully capable Sauron only by the skin of their teeth, and every one of the players in those battles were much less than they were. They didn't want to believe that Sauron was back, given how far the Free Peoples had fallen since the Last Alliance. And Saruman, held to be the wisest of them, deliberately misdirected them. Only Gandalf had the courage to try and investigate and see the real threat.

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, svensson said:

Well, I'll happily give you that 'ChartMaster' was a lousy system to work with. Even the various watered down versions were cumbersome.

That's why is was often referred to as RollMaster

2 hours ago, svensson said:

I think, however, that many of the starting character magic items might be considered Fine to Exceptional quality normal weapons, 'masterwork' if you will, rather than actual Magic Items on par with Sting or Glamdring. Even the Numenorean daggers that Merry, Pippin, and Sam got after Aragorn rescued them from the Barrow Wight had some extra 'oomph' to them compared to the local but perfectly serviceable manufacture.

I was referring more to the characters's mentioned in the stories. For instance: Lobellia Bracegirle's +10 Umbrella that functions as a main gauche, or Merry's "Dwarven Horn": that magically acts as a 5th level Fear Spell and summons all allies within a one mile radius. Pretty much everything gets exaggerated to conform to the typical RPG conventions. Then there is the RM stuff that ICE created for RM that they ported over to their LOTR characters.

Then there is the increased (typical FRPG_ amount and prevalence of magic. Magic is proetty much unknown to the hobbits outside of stories and legend, yet Old Tobdy is written upi as a 10 level Animist with a x3 multiplier trowel. 

 

I'm not concerned about the Westernese daggers and such, those are supposed to be special

 

2 hours ago, svensson said:

As to spells themselves, you illustrate my points. While some beings who are absolutely dedicated to destruction but who are not born within Ea [Elves, Dwarves, even the Ringwraiths] might be able to cast direct damage spells, pretty much no other beings can.

Yeah. Gandalf can probably do more that he is willing to do in the books, we get some hints of that with the Balrog and his almost showdown with the Witch King,  but with the way MERP/RM is written magic is a prevalent and as flashy as, say D&D, if not more so. Most of the classes get spell lists  for things. In many cases the lists just gave them a way for stealthy-woodsy types, such as rangers to be especially stealthy and woodsy, and probably would have been handled better as skills. 

 

Any GM wanting to run a Middle Earth campaign, in BRP or any other RPG, will need to decide if they wish to try to maintain the spirit and feel of the stories, or run a more generic high fantasy game set in a kind of Middle Earth, which will by necessity have to be changed to accommodate the abilities and gear available, and which could lose the fell of being Middle Earth, and just end up as a typical FRPG. I'm not saying a Gm has to do it one way or the other, just pointing out the situation.

It's true of any game set in a week established fictional setting or a historical one.

[Tywyll]

10 hours ago, svensson said:

Well, just like with RQ, we have multiple interpretations to work with. We have the core books and appendices as hard, fast Canon, we have the various interpretations from games, the LOTRO game etc. But for sake of this discussion we'll keep it to JRRT's work.

Several races craft magic items... Elves, Dwarves, the Dunedain and their successors are all capable of it. All three seem to be capable of ritual magics like divination and concealment /illusions.

As to the Necromancer, that was Sauron and he is of the same class and power as the Istari [Gandalf, Saruman, and company]. All of them are Maiar, lesser spirits present at Creation who are in service to greater spirits, the Valar. The Valar hold roles similar to gods and goddesses, while the great[est] being is Eru, the One, the source of the spark of creation. Eru is not worshiped much, at least not directly. Only the Numenoreans are mentioned in worshiping him by name and even then it was only the Crown who did so once a year.

But all this does not fit into the spell-slinging tropes of the classic DnD or RQ game.

Well, actually not entirely. Galadrial tore down the 'Walls of Dol Guldur' so I imagine that was some high level magic there, though it is debatable since its mentioned in passing and not described. 

[Tywyll]

10 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

One of the things abort MERP is that while ICE did a fairly good and faithful job description Middle Earth and the peoples therein, they sort of overlaid it with a typical FRPG game system that doesn't fit the setting. You can see it in the character writeups, with all the characters having weapons and armor with magical bonuses and such.In Tolkien String is a rare and wondrous weapon, in the MERP/RM character writeups all the fellowship and other characters mentioned in the stories probably has a magical weapon, or at least one with a good bonus. 

While it might go overboard with actual magical items, I think items with bonuses is entirely fitting within Middle Earth. A great deal is made about craftsmanship and special weapons, and having 'elven blades/cloaks/etc'. It's clear these items are better than mundane so them having bonuses fits ME quite well I would say.

That said, is ME really that low on magic items? I mean, in the Hobbit, we see 3 magic weapons found in one encounter. Then we get the Ring (which originally wasn't special beyond being one of many magic rings in the world, until he retconned it). The Arkenstone is clearly magic, though maybe not in a FRP sort of way. Black Arrow seems to be magical. Then in LOTR, we get the Numenorean knives (and if the knives were that magical, who knows what the proper weapons would have been like), we get Aragorn's Sword (which arguably is merely symbolic buuuut Narsil was forged first by a famed dwarven smith and then reforged by the elves...if that isn't a pedigree for a magic weapon, I don't know what is.

Not to mention Stormbringer, er I mean Gurthang wielded by Truin, which literally talks and can cleave any armor.

In some ways, I think ME may be the setting that is most like RPGs when it comes to magic items, i.e. the characters get them and then, in most cases, they stop caring or treating them special! 

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Tywyll said:

While it might go overboard with actual magical items, I think items with bonuses is entirely fitting within Middle Earth. A great deal is made about craftsmanship and special weapons, and having 'elven blades/cloaks/etc'. It's clear these items are better than mundane so them having bonuses fits ME quite well I would say.

Certainly. There is nothing wrong with quality items in a Middle Earth settting,  In fact I remember working on crafting rules for my RQ Middle Earth adaptation years back.

 

But MERP didn't really have them. It was RM where they mentioned the idea of non-magical plusses.

1 hour ago, Tywyll said:

That said, is ME really that low on magic items? I mean, in the Hobbit, we see 3 magic weapons found in one encounter. Then we get the Ring (which originally wasn't special beyond being one of many magic rings in the world, until he retconned it). The Arkenstone is clearly magic, though maybe not in a FRP sort of way. Black Arrow seems to be magical. Then in LOTR, we get the Numenorean knives (and if the knives were that magical, who knows what the proper weapons would have been like), we get Aragorn's Sword (which arguably is merely symbolic buuuut Narsil was forged first by a famed dwarven smith and then reforged by the elves...if that isn't a pedigree for a magic weapon, I don't know what is.

Yes it is, compared to a typical FRPG like D&D. You have thoise items, pluys the elvish cloaks and ropes, adn the Paletirs showing up over a chrinocle covering 60 years or so. In D&D you'd see more magic in 6 adventures.

Think about it. In a typical D&D campaign, when the PCs find their first treasure there are usually  one or two magic longswords in the pile. Typically not quite enough to outfight every PC who wields a longsword. But nobody is worried because there is a very good chance that they will all have them by second level. High level characters often have to keep a inventory of all their magical items, which are more than they can usually remember.

This probably came about for two reasons. First off the desire to capture the feel for LOTR. The problem is what works great for one of two epic stories can break down when it becomes a routine occurrence. The second reason was that back in D&D and AD&D magic items were really one of the best ways to differentiate one character from another of the same class. 

 

1 hour ago, Tywyll said:

Not to mention Stormbringer, er I mean Gurthang wielded by Truin, which literally talks and can cleave any armor.

 

First that's much close to Excalibur/Caliburn ('cut-steel") than Strombringer. Tolkien drew of historical legends.

Secondly the who First Aid has a magical quality to it which is much dioffernt from the late thrid age/early fourth age that most campaigns are set in. The Noldo really used to churn out stuff, although just how long it took them to do it is another thing. 

1 hour ago, Tywyll said:

In some ways, I think ME may be the setting that is most like RPGs when it comes to magic items, i.e. the characters get them and then, in most cases, they stop caring or treating them special! 

I completely disagree. That doesn't happen in ME. Far from it. The Similarrion is all about caring too much for for magical items, as is the story of the one ring. Even Bilbo cares for his magic items, he just doesn't value them quite to the same extent as one might expect, but that's because he has no need for them in his normal life. He only gets into a handful of fights in the Hobbit and then never has need of his magic items again. 

 

 

[Tywyll]

On 3/29/2019 at 2:33 PM, Atgxtg said:

Certainly. There is nothing wrong with quality items in a Middle Earth settting,  In fact I remember working on crafting rules for my RQ Middle Earth adaptation years back.

 

But MERP didn't really have them. It was RM where they mentioned the idea of non-magical plusses.

They may not be in the rulebook, but they certainly were in the modules.

On 3/29/2019 at 2:33 PM, Atgxtg said:

Yes it is, compared to a typical FRPG like D&D. You have thoise items, pluys the elvish cloaks and ropes, adn the Paletirs showing up over a chrinocle covering 60 years or so. In D&D you'd see more magic in 6 adventures.

Argueably, every dwarven and elven item is enchanted. So, no I don't agree.

On 3/29/2019 at 2:33 PM, Atgxtg said:

Think about it. In a typical D&D campaign, when the PCs find their first treasure there are usually  one or two magic longswords in the pile. Typically not quite enough to outfight every PC who wields a longsword. But nobody is worried because there is a very good chance that they will all have them by second level. High level characters often have to keep a inventory of all their magical items, which are more than they can usually remember.

This probably came about for two reasons. First off the desire to capture the feel for LOTR. The problem is what works great for one of two epic stories can break down when it becomes a routine occurrence. The second reason was that back in D&D and AD&D magic items were really one of the best ways to differentiate one character from another of the same class. 

That assumes you consider it a problem.

 

On 3/29/2019 at 2:33 PM, Atgxtg said:

First that's much close to Excalibur/Caliburn ('cut-steel") than Strombringer. Tolkien drew of historical legends.

Yeah, he did, as did Moorcock. The sword was cursed to kill friends and was itself intelligent and spoke to its bearer. It is far closer to Stormbringer than Excalibur. 

On 3/29/2019 at 2:33 PM, Atgxtg said:

Secondly the who First Aid has a magical quality to it which is much dioffernt from the late thrid age/early fourth age that most campaigns are set in. The Noldo really used to churn out stuff, although just how long it took them to do it is another thing. 

Tolein makes it clear that the items are in fact magical versus some idea of them simply appearing magical to ignorant people. 

On 3/29/2019 at 2:33 PM, Atgxtg said:

I completely disagree. That doesn't happen in ME. Far from it. The Similarrion is all about caring too much for for magical items, as is the story of the one ring. Even Bilbo cares for his magic items, he just doesn't value them quite to the same extent as one might expect, but that's because he has no need for them in his normal life. He only gets into a handful of fights in the Hobbit and then never has need of his magic items again. 

Yeah, but that's one hobbit who never had access to or exposure to common every day magic. The elves, the Numenoreans, the Dunedin, they all have them as common place. The knives Mary and Pippin carry aren't ascribed any particular emotional significance, and they are clearly magic, so no, I completely disagree with you. As for the Similarrion, that's a whole order of magnitude beyond 'magic items'. No one gets caught up for caring too much for Orcrist. Artifacts =/= magic items. 

[Richard S.]

The story of Turin was based quite heavily on an old Finnish legend from the Kalevala, which also featured a talking sword, incest, and suicide like Tolkien's version. Turin's Black Sword probably has little to no connection to Excalibur/Callandor.

[Atgxtg]

2 hours ago, Tywyll said:

They may not be in the rulebook, but they certainly were in the modules.

Yes, as most of the modules were RM compatible. But they also introduced a lot of fantasy things like blak lean and eog that didn't exist in Tolkien's work.

2 hours ago, Tywyll said:

Argueably, every dwarven and elven item is enchanted. So, no I don't agree.

And, arguably they are not. Elves generally don't seem to understand what people mean by magic, and thier items are crafrted so well that they are natually disposted towards being better at their prescribed function. 

But what you don't see in LotR are magic swords and lots of +X swords and such all over the place.

2 hours ago, Tywyll said:

That assumes you consider it a problem.

Well if you don't you are in the minority. It's one of the major reasons why AD&D changed and got replaced with 3E. Characters require niche protection and the older, simpler characters of early D&D got that by their class. But when you have four or five fighters in the group, there isn't anything special about being a fighter anymore, so characters get defined by their magic.

Now both MERP/RM and BRP are skill based and so there is a lot more ways to diversify and customize a character outside of what magical goodies they are carrying. 

 

2 hours ago, Tywyll said:

Yeah, he did, as did Moorcock. The sword was cursed to kill friends and was itself intelligent and spoke to its bearer. It is far closer to Stormbringer than Excalibur. 

In function, perhaps, but not as far as intention and soruce. Strombringer came later, and Moorcock would probably have a fit to be compared to Tolkien. 

2 hours ago, Tywyll said:

Tolein makes it clear that the items are in fact magical versus some idea of them simply appearing magical to ignorant people. 

Oh, where? He is actually rather vague about just what "magical" means, and that the term seems to denote a lack of understanding in the listener. What men and hobbits might call magical an elf would consider to be well made. Lok at the dwarven toys and fireworks in the LOtR. THey are called magical in some places but the former could be wind up soldiers, and the latter perfectly natual fireworks. 

2 hours ago, Tywyll said:

Yeah, but that's one hobbit who never had access to or exposure to common every day magic.

And that's the point. He didn't have such exposure, not did the rest of the hobbits of the Shire, or Bree, or the men at Bree and so forth. That;'s very different from D&D where everybody walking around has magical items. Clarke's third law seems to apply here.

2 hours ago, Tywyll said:

The elves, the Numenoreans, the Dunedin, they all have them as common place.

The elves had them, but don't seem to do powerful magics as much any more, and their power is fading. The Numenorians had them too, but were wiped out, and the Dunedain still have some of them, but they are far from commonplace among them. Aragon walks around with the broken sword of his father, and doesn't have a bunch of +5 backup weapons. 

Again going back to old D&D, things like wrights, (ring)wraiths and balrogs (Type VI demons?) aren't nearly as nasty if PKs have the D&D arsenal of magic items at thier disposal.

 

2 hours ago, Tywyll said:

The knives Mary and Pippin carry aren't ascribed any particular emotional significance, and they are clearly magic,

First off they are not "clearly magic" and that they are poi9nted out to so specifically shows that they are not common items, but rather relics of a former age. They might not even be magical but just high quality.

2 hours ago, Tywyll said:

so no, I completely disagree with you. As for the Similarrion, that's a whole order of magnitude beyond 'magic items'. No one gets caught up for caring too much for Orcrist. Artifacts =/= magic items. 

Yes the Simialrion is a whol other order, but notice how Middle Earth has been powered dopwn since then. The biggest baddest item left sems to the the One Ring, and there is only one. Yes the elves had lesser rings, but nothing like the typical D&D setting. Gandalf even warns that any such ring could be dangerous to normal folk. 

[g33k]

1 hour ago, Atgxtg said:

First off they are not "clearly magic" and that they are poi9nted out to so specifically shows that they are not common items, but rather relics of a former age. They might not even be magical but just high quality.

While I am generally in agreement with your overall point that "magic items" are relatively rare in ME (vs. D&D), the knives of Merry & Pippin (assuming those weapons are peers, unlike the clearly-superior Sting, from the same trove) clearly ARE magical.

Merry's blade was crucial to unraveling the spells empowering the chief Ringwraith.  It was more than mere steel, however well-crafted.

Quote

No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.

 

[Atgxtg]

42 minutes ago, g33k said:

While I am generally in agreement with your overall point that "magic items" are relatively rare in ME (vs. D&D), the knives of Merry & Pippin (assuming those weapons are peers, unlike the clearly-superior Sting, from the same trove), clearly ARE magical.Merry's blade was crucial to unraveling the spells empowering the chief Ringwraith.  It was more than mere steel, however well-crafted.

Uh String was from the troll hord in The Hobbit, while the Numenorian Blades were from the Barrow (different troves)

42 minutes ago, g33k said:

No other blade, not though mightier hands had wielded it, would have dealt that foe a wound so bitter, cleaving the undead flesh, breaking the spell that knit his unseen sinews to his will.

While I could make a case about there possibly being something to do with the nature of wraiths and evil magic, much like how silver is effective against vampires (yes I wrote vampires, the werewolf vulnerability\came later),  and such I'm willing to accept Merry and Pippin's blades as magical.

Now I'd point out that those blades are viewed as something special in the books, as your quote also does with the "no other blade" bit (as opposed to +1 or better to hit). But you're not stating otherwise so no need. 

 

Hmmm, I wonder how many magical items were carried by the fellowship in LotR.

Aragon's Sword (kinda broken but magical)

Gandalf had Glamdring, The Ring of Fire and his wizard's staff. I wouldn't be surprised if he cloak and robes were magical, so let's count them.

Frodo had String and the One Ring. His Mithral shirt is never stated as magical, although functionally it was very good mail.

Merry and Pippin had thier Numnorian daggers

A Palentir pops up.

Frodo get the vial of Galadriel at Lothlorian, Sam gets the Mallorn tree and the box of fertilizer (magical or just more advanced gardening tech?)and everybody gets Elven Cloaks (TM), Boots (TM),  and Rope (TM), not to mention  more than enough waybread (questionable if it was magical) to choke a Gollum.

Now I suppose someone could (and will)_ Make claims about Boromir's horn, Gimlis axe, Legolas' bow or even Bill the pony, but I don't see evidence of it in the books.

 

So we got what, a dozen items, before they get all the "Evlish  bling" at Lothlorian. And this is for a group out to save the world. What is that in D&D terms 4th level?

 

 

 

 

 

[g33k]

26 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Uh String was from the troll hord in The Hobbit, while the Numenorian Blades were from the Barrow (different troves)

Gaaaah.

You are completely correct.  Apologies!

(but it's Sting not "String").

 

23 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Gandalf ... I wouldn't be surprised if he cloak and robes were magical, so let's count them.

I'm unaware of anything in H/LotR that implies that Gandalf wore anything like this; nor the extended canon (but I only ever read Silmarillion & skimmed parts of Unfinished Tales).  Except, maybe, for something colorific?  When Saruman claimed "Many-Colored" or Gandalf revealed as "The White".  Sort of a "halo" / "holy glow" effect?   But AFAIK nothing a D&D player would value even as much as the cheapest +1 item...

 

32 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Frodo had String ... His Mithral shirt is never stated as magical, although functionally it was very good mail.

IMO it is shown to be magical:  when Aragorn gets to Frodo after the fight in the crypt, he isn't expecting Frodo to be alive.  The most-experienced warrior of all mankind, and he KNOWS that Frodo must be dead.  Sufficiently advanced DwarfTech is indistinguishable from magic (and it's still Sting) !

THREE of the Palantiri pop up - Saruman's, Denethor's, and Sauron's.

 

44 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

So we got what, a dozen items, before they get all the "Evlish  bling" at Lothlorian. And this is for a group out to save the world. What is that in D&D terms 4th level?

I count 9.  10 if you add the Arkenstone -- not in the LotR, but existing as a "protagonist-held" item in the Hobbit.

I think we are basically just arguing the same point, that "magic items" are much more rare in Tolkein's LotR corpus for the 3rd Age, than in ICE's MERP corpus.

It's also... kind of worth worth noting that Elrond gave no Bling, BTW; given that Middle Earth would live or die by the success of the Nine Walkers' mission (and arguably, leave Sauron free to figure out how to summon Morgoth).  That's... kind of a Big Deal.  Simply walking into Mordor is Epic Level Badassery, laser-eyed bears or wizard ninja's notwithstanding.  Bling is due.

 

[Atgxtg]

54 minutes ago, g33k said:

Gaaaah.

You are completely correct.  Apologies!

(but it's Sting not "String").

Must have bet a bit of cobwb stuck to it. 😳

54 minutes ago, g33k said:

 

I'm unaware of anything in H/LotR that implies that Gandalf wore anything like this; nor the extended canon (but I only ever read Silmarillion & skimmed parts of Unfinished Tales).  Except, maybe, for something colorific?  When Saruman claimed "Many-Colored" or Gandalf revealed as "The White".  Sort of a "halo" / "holy glow" effect?   But AFAIK nothing a D&D player would value even as much as the cheapest +1 item...

Yeah, thats what I was thinking, although much of it could just be the Istari. But I was erring on the side of magic. 

54 minutes ago, g33k said:

IMO it is shown to be magical:  when Aragorn gets to Frodo after the fight in the crypt, he isn't expecting Frodo to be alive.  The most-experienced warrior of all mankind, and he KNOWS that Frodo must be dead.  Sufficiently advanced DwarfTech is indistinguishable from magic (and it's still Sting) !

I wouldn't say so. The main reason why they didn't expect him to be alive is becuase they didn't know he was wearing it. THat a well made mail shirt can stop a spear tip from penetrating isn't magical- that's what armor is for. Fordo didn't exactly shrug off the hit either. Still, it's good stuff, and in game terms probably soaked most of an impale. Even if it is magical, it is certainly noted for being extremely rare, and no one is looking to upgrade it to a +3 mail shirt. 

 

54 minutes ago, g33k said:

THREE of the Palantiri pop up - Saruman's, Denethor's, and Sauron's.

Oops, score a point. 

54 minutes ago, g33k said:

I count 9.  10 if you add the Arkenstone -- not in the LotR, but existing as a "protagonist-held" item in the Hobbit.

I think we are basically just arguing the same point, that "magic items" are much more rare in Tolkein's LotR corpus for the 3rd Age, than in ICE's MERP corpus.

Yes,, ad I think we are pretty much on the same side of the argument, too. 

54 minutes ago, g33k said:

It's also... kind of worth worth noting that Elrond gave no Bling, BTW; given that Middle Earth would live or die by the success of the Nine Walkers' mission (and arguably, leave Sauron free to figure out how to summon Morgoth).  That's... kind of a Big Deal.  Simply walking into Mordor is Epic Level Badassery, laser-eyed bears or wizard ninja's notwithstanding.  Bling is due.

He did give a little bling. He fixed Aragon's sword (major goodie), and those elvish boats might have been magical, and he helped to save Frodo from the Black Breath and put up with all those bickering house guests. But still, on paper that ONE item. 

 

Now a case could be made that the fellowship wanted to keep a low profile so as not to draw unwanted attention while sneaking about, and didn't take much, but I think that is equally as telling. A high level group of D&D characters without much magic stick outs more than one that has more magic objects than they can carry. I think that if Bormir, Legolas,and Gimli were walking about with "plus" weapons Tolkien would have noted it. 

 

Instead what we get is a world where a good sword is considered somewhat magical because it is a good sword. Much more like Earth before the industrial age. 

[g33k]

7 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

... I wouldn't say so. The main reason why they didn't expect him to be alive is becuase they didn't know he was wearing it. THat a well made mail shirt can stop a spear tip from penetrating isn't magical- that's what armor is for. Fordo didn't exactly shrug off the hit either. Still, it's good stuff, and in game terms probably soaked most of an impale... 

Except that at the other end of that spear wasn't Any Ordinary Spearman, but a (in the book, not the movie) an orc big & strong enough to shield-bash / knockback Boromir (who is noted as both large & unusually strong, the preeminent warriro of Gondor, so no "pushover" -- except he was, vs. this foe).

The spear hit hard enough not only to bruise the ribs where it hit, but the impact-area where Frodo hit the wall behind him.  So that hit HARD... REALLY hard.

And it's light as cloth.

And quiet enough that nobody heard Frodo jingling as they tromped for weeks through rough country.

 

AFAIK... we couldn't make that stuff today, in 2019.

Indistinguishable from magic.

 

[g33k]

19 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

....  He did give a little bling. He fixed Aragon's sword (major goodie), and those elvish boats might have been magical, and he helped to save Frodo from the Black Breath and put up with all those bickering house guests. But still, on paper that ONE item. 

 

OK, he fixed an item that Aragorn already owned... not (IMHO) "giving bling" but I guess it's sort of the same.  I'm sure ol' Strider wasn't complaining!

And yeah, he ran the Elven Hospital, an important contribution (and again, Frodo didn't complain!)... but it isn't sending them onward with Bling to help them succeed!

The boats were Galadriel's, though.

But ... putting up with the house guests?  pfffft.  Pure Elrond-esque selfishness:  he clearly drank his entire stock of +10 Single Malt of Patience (about a +50 item in MERP terms).

 

[Atgxtg]

4 hours ago, g33k said:

Except that at the other end of that spear wasn't Any Ordinary Spearman, but a (in the book, not the movie) an orc big & strong enough to shield-bash / knockback Boromir (who is noted as both large & unusually strong, the preeminent warriro of Gondor, so no "pushover" -- except he was, vs. this foe).

The spear hit hard enough not only to bruise the ribs where it hit, but the impact-area where Frodo hit the wall behind him.  So that hit HARD... REALLY hard.

Yeah but mail stops that sort of hit. Contrary to what most gamers think people in good metal armor usually don't get cut or stabbed through the armor, but instead are either get cut or pieced at the gaps where the armor doesn't protect or  suffer from the blunt trauma through the armor. As far as the big strong orc, well mail can stop the impace of a lance from a horse charge so it's not such a stunning feat.

 

4 hours ago, g33k said:

And it's light as cloth.

I know Bilbo claims that it is so when he gives it to Frodo but that line is contradicted elsewhere, such as when Frodo is in Mordor and can't bear the weight of it anymore. I think it is just relatively light for a coat of mail, and not actually the same weight as cloth. 

 

4 hours ago, g33k said:

And quiet enough that nobody heard Frodo jingling as they tromped for weeks through rough country.

Again no big deal. I've worn mail and it doesn't make much sound. It when metal hits metal that you get that, and even then mail isn't too bad-especially just a shirt worn under clothing. 

 

4 hours ago, g33k said:

AFAIK... we couldn't make that stuff today, in 2019.

Indistinguishable from magic.

 

Sure we could.It would be of limited use in modern warfare, and very labor intensive (which was the real downfall of mail). 

[seneschal]

I contend that instead of sending out the Fellowship only (stealth mission), Elrond should have sent additional groups of “heroes” in random directions, each equipped with a bright shiny blatantly magical ring.  The Ringwraiths would have had to scramble all over the continent to run down all the rumors and appearances these, ahem, ringers generated.

[Atgxtg]

12 hours ago, seneschal said:

I contend that instead of sending out the Fellowship only (stealth mission), Elrond should have sent additional groups of “heroes” in random directions, each equipped with a bright shiny blatantly magical ring.  The Ringwraiths would have had to scramble all over the continent to run down all the rumors and appearances these, ahem, ringers generated.

Yeah, I think that's what Aragon an Gandalf ended up as too, decoys. Saruon was expecting somebody to claim the ring and challenge him. Had the Elves been stronger they might have tried the decoy bit. As it was nobody could really withstand him if he were to put all his effort into getting at you, and not have to spread out his forces so much. 

[seneschal]

The real challenge will be finding extant MERP materials at an affordable price to adapt.  Never played Rolemaster/MERP but those Angus McBride covers were gorgeous.

[Tywyll]

On 4/1/2019 at 11:21 PM, g33k said:

Except that at the other end of that spear wasn't Any Ordinary Spearman, but a (in the book, not the movie) an orc big & strong enough to shield-bash / knockback Boromir (who is noted as both large & unusually strong, the preeminent warriro of Gondor, so no "pushover" -- except he was, vs. this foe).

The spear hit hard enough not only to bruise the ribs where it hit, but the impact-area where Frodo hit the wall behind him.  So that hit HARD... REALLY hard.

And it's light as cloth.

And quiet enough that nobody heard Frodo jingling as they tromped for weeks through rough country.

 

AFAIK... we couldn't make that stuff today, in 2019.

Indistinguishable from magic.

 

yeah, the Mithril shirt is clearly magical, or at least the skill to craft such is. Either way, it would count as a magical item in any game.

[Tywyll]

On 4/1/2019 at 8:57 PM, Atgxtg said:

 

So we got what, a dozen items, before they get all the "Evlish  bling" at Lothlorian. And this is for a group out to save the world. What is that in D&D terms 4th level?

Absolutely depends on the edition you are playing. Plenty of people play(ed)1st and 2nd edition as low magic. It's only modern editions that have 'expected wealth' and that certainly wasn't from the time of MERP. 

 

Edited April 5, 2019 by Tywyll