Why Humakt, Yelm and Ourania are ambivalent towards the Chaos?

[Richard S.]

4 hours ago, FlamingCatOfDeath said:

His murders aftermath has made him destined to be devoured by entropy so I don’t think he views his current situation as an improvement 

Time is what prevents the gods from being devoured by entropy. Sure, entropy's a part of time now, but the gods are protected from it. I'd say that's an improvement from sitting in the underworld waiting to be devoured by Kabajor.

[FlamingCatOfDeath]

1 hour ago, Richard S. said:

Time is what prevents the gods from being devoured by entropy. Sure, entropy's a part of time now, but the gods are protected from it. I'd say that's an improvement from sitting in the underworld waiting to be devoured by Kabajor.

Of course existing is better than not but if he was not murdered he might still be an eternal being that generates power, a much better state than his current one where he is reliant on his worshippers feeding him magic points and POW to maintain himself.

[French Desperate WindChild]

12 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

We all succumb to entropy in the end. In his illuminated state, Yelm can surely make his peace with that

a new (for me) thought based on that...

What if gods of chaos are not gods from chaos ?

What if chaos is "just"  a potential state provided by Death ?

We know that the red goddess was dead. And the red goddess is more or less chaotic

We know that  Yelm was dead and is illuminate. Yelm may be chaotic but we can't sense it because he is illuminated

We know that Humakt is Death and illuminate. Of course he must accept chaos as it is part of Death change

I don't know a lot about Ourania but as she is so high in the sky, she can see the boundaries of the world. She can see that there is noone in chaos, that chaos is noone. Just a state, the world's imperfection. So she has no fear, no hate, she knows. She is illumate (btw I didn't know she was 😛 )

 

What about Ragnaglar ? Who knows if he was not killed before becoming Ragnaglar. We believe he is Orlanth's brother but it is not sure right ?

the clues we have is Ragnaglar (chaotic) recognized Orlanth in his palace, and there is an unnamed brother of Orlanth who was sent and lost in the Sex Pit.

lost, unnamed = oblivion = chaos. So yes Ragnaglar may be the dead then "refactored", "corrupted" forgotten brother of Orlanth.

 

So maybe all these chaotic gods are in fact forgotten "normal" gods who died and experimented this transformation. Some were strong enough, or weak enough, to disappear once dead (you are rune and to rune you should return) but other may be strong enough or weak enough to form themselves again, with some breaches, their chaotic features

Thanatar may be a son of Lhankor for example

Vivamort may be teached to die and reborn, not to avoid his death etc...

 

[JRE]

Almost all gods died, which is why the last stand of the gods is in hell, and not in the surface. And even then we have a clear divide between the god of Chaos and all the others.

I would say there are a few true chaos gods (Kajabor, Wakboth, Krarsht, Primal Chaos), and many more "corrupted gods", those that did not come from outside but sided with it, such as Thed, Malia, Ragnaglar, Vivamort, ... Even other gods may have been corrupted in the godtime and redeemed, which may explain some weirdnesses such as Humakt's flexibility and illumination.

 

[scott-martin]

On 11/14/2023 at 9:52 PM, bronze said:

Of all deities, they should oppose the Chaos the most. Are they secretly in league with the Chaos? 

IMG the answer comes from the other direction: the cults have historically developed an unusually close relationship with illumination and so their elites tend to be more flexible than others when they encounter chaos. Any ambivalence you notice may be less about the gods than the priests who emulate and embody them and mediate our sense of what the gods want.

And the priesthoods of Humakt and Yelm have been intimately associated with Arkat and Nysalor since the formation of the Dark and Bright Empires. We have some records of how the Yelm establishment worked over the intervening centuries to purge riddler influences but IMG this isn't really something you can do even if you take the long way around through hell. History leaves traces, especially in modern times when the cult is closed to the masses and wide open to the lunar way. Removing all the illuminates from the palace is like unbanging a golden gong. Sword priests, on the other hand, are still free to hate. They just don't operate from a position of existential terror, which by Gloranthan standards is a shocking and weird attitude to have.

Uleria is of course the third cult usually discussed in these terms and her history is less well documented. They're so rare that every initiate has a direct and almost gnostic relationship with the goddess . . . it would be easy to build out the cult as a route to enlightenment in itself, a piggyback insight like conventional Nysalor illumination complete with its own "riddles." ("Say the word / and be like me. Say the word / I'm thinking of. The word is love.") You could do that with Ourania as well, the twinkle in the eye at the heart of the cloister. Maybe those insights converge at certain points within religious history and maybe they get separated again. Get a high enough proportion of illuminates inside any cult (even Mostal) and things will probably get weird.

Also all free jolanti have something close enough to a soul that it's good enough for me. The hard part is getting liberated in the first place.
 

[Joerg]

Old Chaos:

Primal Chaos, Krarsht, Jotimam

Outer Chaos:

Kajabor, Krjalk, Pocharngo

Chaos Volunteers:

Ragnaglar, Thed, Mallia, Sedenya

Chaos bred:

Wakboth, Dogsalu

Born from Chaos deities

Tien, Cacodemon, Cwim

Chaos corrupted:

Vivamort, Bagog

[mfbrandi]

7 hours ago, JRE said:

I would say there are a few true chaos gods (… Wakboth …), and many more … that did not come from outside

One old take on Wakboth is that it did not come from outside:

• Wakboth is the Guise of the Devil — the insulation between the Devil and Glorantha.
  He was the ultimate scab formed by the world to protect itself from the invasion of chaos.
  — Lords of Terror, p.87

Doubtless never intended as gospel, but even if Thed and Ragnaglar are only figuratively its parents, that “theory” has a certain appeal, no?

Can we add to the list of “chaos corrupted” all the gods twisted by their determination to fight chaos, even if many of them are not themselves chaotic? (“No” is an acceptable answer, too — one less thing to blame chaos for.)

[mfbrandi]

4 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Uleria is of course the third cult usually discussed in these terms and her history is less well documented.

Except in shops where everything comes in a plain brown wrapper. Free your ass … and your mind will follow. It is a harder road than Nysalor’s and Funkadelic’s.

(Issaries thought it was “free your ass, and your mule will follow.” He is still protesting that the his is a great beast.)

[hipsterinspace]

In the Sourcebook (and elsewhere) it is stated that Humakt, alongside Uleria, was illuminated by Rashorana during the Great Darkness. They are pointed out as the only entities who listened to Rashorana and were strengthened by those teachings rather than being corrupted by chaos or surrendering to be annihilated by it. Every living being is born and every living being eventually dies, and during those occasions (even for chaos creatures) Uleria and Humakt are present, respectively.

Yelm is more difficult, but I think one of the biggest parts of his illumination is that presence of both Life and Death within him. He was able to reconcile his internal opposites, Humakt and Uleria, accepting his place in the world as a manifestation of the endless cycle of death and rebirth.

[Darius West]

Humakt is an illuminated deity, having (I think I recall) met Rashoran in the God Time, possibly in the company of Chalana Arroy.  This is why Ralzakark as a force of Humakti broos under his control.

Yelm partakes of illumination via his connection to Dayzatar, and of course via Yelm's connection to Nysalor.

I don't know why Ourania is on this list as I haven't read her myths.  Does anyone else know?

[JRE]

Although the myths usually say that the Unholy Trio brought forth the Devil (which can mean Wakboth, Kajabor or some other Chaos), it does not make sense, as that is also an outsider, not a mix of Chaos and Gloranthan existence. So I propose what they did bring about is a hole, or a bridge, depending on how you like your metaphors, and the Devil was the first one across. So calling it Storm Bull's or Orlanth nephew, even if accurate according to some myths, will not bring you any laughs or friends in Glorantha.

If there is another thing the Greater Darkness shows is that, except for those beings devoured by Kajabor/Chaos, most events can be reversed, as long as enough mythical base remains. So you can be on Chaos side briefly, and then be opposed to it. You can die, and then you can get out from Hell. You can be alive and dead, friend and enemy, chaos destroyer and chaos hanger-on, usually at the same time. Maybe Rashorana helped them weather this, but just those experiences, taken simultaneously, are what allows the worshippers to become illuminated, believing several impossible things at the same time. Because I propose that saying a deity is illuminated before the Great Compromise is meaningless, as the deity is unchangeable now, and it is unknowable how it really was back then. What it means, in my opinion, is that following that deity's god path is quite likely to bring you illumination, if you follow it closely enough. And that is before Nysalor found a shortcut and the possibility to become illuminated without following a difficult god path., and even without recourse to the divine.

Orlanth shows little doubt and little change, so his worshippers probably are quite resistant to spontaneous illumination. Others however are much more susceptible, and those are the gods traditionally considered as illuminated, because devout worshippers can become illuminated.

It is likely that the Red Goddess mundane life is intended as a highway to illumination, but as usual such shortcuts bring risks.

 

[metcalph]

I think speculation about how the Unholy Trio bought Wakboth into the world should take into account that Orlanth knows Wakboth long before his supposed birth (KoS, the chequered battle). 

Personally (and I have said this before), Wakboth's origins was probably described by an ancient poet as "Madness was his father, rape his mother and disease the midwife at his birth" with subsequent scholars taking the expression literally. 

[soltakss]

On 11/15/2023 at 2:52 AM, bronze said:

Of all deities, they should oppose the Chaos the most. Are they secretly in league with the Chaos? 

How could Yelm accept the Red Goddess as his daughter? Isn't Chaos the ultimate rebellions against cosmic order? 

Humakt: He is opposed to the misuse of Death and allows Chaos cultists as worshippers as long as they do not misuse Death and uphold his Honour. That is all he cares about.

Yelm: He defeated Chaos very early in his reign and banished it. Chaos did not affect his realm until he was killed by Orlanth. So, Orlanth cause Chaos to attack his realm. Yelm is fine with the Red Goddess, as she is his daughter. He doesn't see her as Chaotic as he is not really aware of Chaos except as something that he defeated long ago.

Ourania: She is so remote and so far removed from the world that she is beyond petty things such as Chaos. If it does not affect the Heavens then she is not interested in it.