Sorcery Question - Expend POW

[OrlanthRex]

Reading through Mostal cult in Earth Goddesses and I have a sorcery question. Most of Mostali spells requires the user to expend 1 POW; is this a permanent loss of power?

For example, a Rock Dwarf spending every waking hour working his masonry tasks for the Decamony wouldn’t be super productive if they have to sacrifice POW every time they cast cut/measure/shape or stabilize stone. 

[Richard S.]

It's permanent POW, yes. What spells are needed where and cast by who is heavily planned and regulated, so the POW loss is negligible on the scale of Mostali projects. I believe the old Elder Secrets book mentioned that dwarves would passively gain POW every year or so by following the way of Mostal, making up for the loss incurred by the few spells they'd needed to cast themselves in that period. I imagine that dwarf technology more than makes up for their limited use of spells.

Of course sometimes plans go awry, and there are times when dwarves are forced to run themselves dry in constant magic use, but their recycling is a necessary sacrifice. And maybe the Silvers have found ways to make other types of tools pay the cost, like unfortunate spirit batteries or human captives.

[PhilHibbs]

With long enough durations, and the use of big duration inscriptions, the cost could be worthwhile. A thousand year old Mostali could easily have inscriptions with 20 points of duration in them, allowing spells that last thousands of years, even without considering what additional mechanisms the Mostali might have such as shared inscriptions or duration-boosting magical devices.

[French Desperate WindChild]

On 11/22/2023 at 3:32 AM, OrlanthRex said:

For example, a Rock Dwarf spending every waking hour working his masonry tasks for the Decamony wouldn’t be super productive if they have to sacrifice POW every time they cast cut/measure/shape or stabilize stone. 

it depends on what every time means.

If you need to use it every 10 years it is not so expensive. Stone doesn't need magic to be stable except when you start to build "crazy" things. You can build a bridge without any POW, just because you know (and dwarves know) how to use stone

 

same for the other domains. These spells are used only when the "rules" must be broken

Edited November 29, 2023 by French Desperate WindChild

[Richard S.]

I could see something like every iron dwarf's armor having an essentially permanent casting of Shape Iron on it (expiring in a few hundred years or so), allowing them to be easily repaired or resized for another soldier.

[Akhôrahil]

My PCs were gifted an unbreakable Stabilized copper sword - they were not overly concerned with learning the effect will only last for 20 years or so.

[Akhôrahil]

One important thing here which has to be a GM call is how much POW NPCs earn. I think the world typically looks right if you assume regular people (including Mostali) earn 1 POW per about five to ten years. This would mean that dwarves have to be careful with their POW, but not so much that they can't use it every few years, which can mean a lot of spells over the centuries, and potentially a lot of them ongoing all at once.

[Shiningbrow]

On 12/1/2023 at 6:10 AM, Akhôrahil said:

One important thing here which has to be a GM call is how much POW NPCs earn. I think the world typically looks right if you assume regular people (including Mostali) earn 1 POW per about five to ten years. This would mean that dwarves have to be careful with their POW, but not so much that they can't use it every few years, which can mean a lot of spells over the centuries, and potentially a lot of them ongoing all at once.

That rate seems extremely low.. I'd go for minimum of 1 every 2-3 years, and even that's pretty slow (but, for Mostali, might make more sense).

[Shiningbrow]

On 11/29/2023 at 11:57 PM, PhilHibbs said:

With long enough durations, and the use of big duration inscriptions, the cost could be worthwhile. A thousand year old Mostali could easily have inscriptions with 20 points of duration in them, allowing spells that last thousands of years, even without considering what additional mechanisms the Mostali might have such as shared inscriptions or duration-boosting magical devices.

And this doesn't include the effects from rituals in which there are more participants - which should be a fairly standard effect (which, basically, is the whole point of ritualised magic).

[Akhôrahil]

3 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

That rate seems extremely low.. I'd go for minimum of 1 every 2-3 years

This might work, but then you have to ask yourself "what do they use the POW for?" Why would the average initiate settle for a mere 3 Rune Points, when they're so extremely good?

One reasonable answer might be that you have to dump POW into the wyter at a reasonable rate, but in that case, so should the PCs. 

(For Mostali, it's easy, though - their magic.)

Edited December 4, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[Shiningbrow]

4 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

This might work, but then you have to ask yourself "what do they use the POW for?" Why would the average initiate settle for a mere 3 Rune Points, when they're so extremely good?

One reasonable answer might be that you have to dump POW into the wyter at a reasonable rate, but in that case, so should the PCs. 

(For Mostali, it's easy, though - their magic.)

Well, yes, I agree...

Perhaps it might be better to say one gains 1 nett POW gain every few years - but 10 years would be terribly low, and Priests and God-Talkers would be extremely rare.

 

 

6 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

but in that case, so should the PCs.

Ummm, yes??? What's your point?/ 🙃

[French Desperate WindChild]

5 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Perhaps it might be better to say one gains 1 nett POW gain every few years - but 10 years would be terribly low, and Priests and God-Talkers would be extremely rare.

do we consider that anyone gains +5% /year  in their best weapon so all 40+ year old people are weapon master ?

I mean the point is there are people , because they are blessed by gods / destiny / live, and / or their activity  are able to gain "a lot of" POW. And there are the others.

In my opinion, PC have destiny (or a potential of destiny), so they are able to gain a lot of POW. Priests, rune lords (or those who will become priests and rune lord) have this facility. But the "commoner" (don't want to put any pejorative sense, I don't know if this word is pejorative) ... no

 

For me dwarves don't have... and don't need to have this potential. Of course, as other races, you may find people with this potential.Maybe those who are or who will be "diamond" will. But not all will become diamond a day, even if they never die. So the race itself ? why ? just because there is a spell needing POW  (sorcery-like from design, but if i remember not exactly sorcery).. No 🙂

[Akhôrahil]

12 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

do we consider that anyone gains +5% /year  in their best weapon so all 40+ year old people are weapon master ?

Only in RQ3. 🙂

This was the reasoning behind setting the Diamond Dwarf entry requirement at 2000% in several skills - that takes the several hundred years its supposed to take.

[French Desperate WindChild]

9 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Only in RQ3. 🙂

Seasonal occupation experience in rqg

six rolls per year for everyone I think no ?

[Akhôrahil]

43 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Seasonal occupation experience in rqg

six rolls per year for everyone I think no ?

Seems to only apply to PCs, same as with Worship POW gain rolls, which makes sense as the game world would be utterly bonkers otherwise.

I think this is a misstep in a simulationist game (the PCs have different rules than everyone else, which isn't very sim), but the alternative (applying these rules to NPCs) is worse

[French Desperate WindChild]

3 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

I think this is a misstep in a simulationist game (the PCs have different rules than everyone else, which isn't very sim), but the alternative (applying these rules to NPCs) is worse

Yes I agree.  

[Shiningbrow]

6 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

do we consider that anyone gains +5% /year  in their best weapon so all 40+ year old people are weapon master ?

I'm not sure how you're getting this bit of math to work.

Even by RAW for PCs, that's not going to happen.

Besides which, if NPCs aren't gaining regular POW, then their community is going to suffer - badly! The Wyter won't get paid, nor will people be able to advance to the priesthood.

[Shiningbrow]

14 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

Seems to only apply to PCs, same as with Worship POW gain rolls, which makes sense as the game world would be utterly bonkers otherwise.

I think this is a misstep in a simulationist game (the PCs have different rules than everyone else, which isn't very sim), but the alternative (applying these rules to NPCs) is worse

I'd say.... it's exaggerated for the PCs - but otherwise still works. After all, you should expect someone working at the same job to be 'master' level of it after 40 years.

[radmonger]

31 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

think this is a misstep in a simulationist game (the PCs have different rules than everyone else, which isn't very sim), but the alternative (applying these rules to NPCs) is worse

i would tweak things so that it is symmetrical to pcs/npcs, but only applies to people who had an 'adventure' that season. Which might be rare for pure farmers, but would probably pretty common for thanes and nobles, if a cattle raid counts.

If a PC really proposed staying at home and doing nothing for 5 years until they got their pow up to species max, then that rule would apply to them to. 

 

[Akhôrahil]

1 minute ago, radmonger said:

i would tweak things so that it is symmetrical to pcs/npcs, but only applies to people who had an 'adventure' that season. Which might be rare for pure farmers, but would probably pretty common for thanes and nobles, if a cattle raid counts.

If a PC really proposed staying at home and doing nothing for 5 years until they got their pow up to species max, then that rule would apply to them to. 

This could work - NPCs would be getting "adventures" now and then (a cattle raid, fighting off intruders, that heroquest you have a reasonable-size role in, defeating this or that hostile magic or creature), but few would get it every season. And more important NPCs possibly would be that busy, motivating higher POW and skills.

[Akhôrahil]

28 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'd say.... it's exaggerated for the PCs - but otherwise still works. After all, you should expect someone working at the same job to be 'master' level of it after 40 years.

If NPCs get yearly instead of seasonal experience using the same system, you probably get about the right numbers. And maybe a POW gain roll per two or three years instead of twice-yearly. So perhaps 1/6th of the PC rate?

Edited December 4, 2023 by Akhôrahil

[French Desperate WindChild]

25 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

I'm not sure how you're getting this bit of math to work.

Even by RAW for PCs, that's not going to happen.

you are right : not every body 😛 except philosopher and priest, anyone has at least +10% in one weapon thanks to their occupation (herder +10, a lot of no fighter +15)

 

now what is the tendency I show ?

except magicians, people start about with 40% in one cultural weapon (homeland + occupation) let's say there is no personal bonus, no cult bonus

then page 416 we can choose 4 skills per season. As the world is violent, your farmer or herder doesn't want to stay inactive in case of cattle raid, your trader want to save herself agains bandits, etc... I imagine that, if i follow RAW, they will "pick" their best weapon skill (always the same, they are not warriors after all) to save themselves, their families, their herds  and wealth.

so start with 40%+, roll 6 times (or 5 if you consider sacred time is not a season) x 20 years = 120 experience checks

90-40 = 50. With an average of 3.5. So you need 15 succeess to become weapon master.

 

ok I don't demonstrate it with math (the curve is harder once you are 80, etc...  I have not enough time - I'm too old now 😛 - and will probably make some issue), it depends  on the characteristic bonus too. But it seems really possible, doesn't it ?

 

or anoher view : Why 100% of "professional" warriors npc we meet in our adventure are not weapon master at 21yo ? It is so easy with the rules !

just because the rules are for exceptional people (like pc) not for everybody (my opinion)

 

 

[Shiningbrow]

22 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

or anoher view : Why 100% of "professional" warriors npc we meet in our adventure are not weapon master at 21yo ? It is so easy with the rules !

Because not everyone min-maxxes....  They don't spend huge chunks of their skills on the sort of stuff that adventurers do. Only warrior types do that.

We're OT.......

[French Desperate WindChild]

22 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

Only warrior types do that.

Yes, see what you quote, I was talking about professional warriors not because min max profil but because imo of course  warrior trained by their family (previous occupation) joining a warrior cult (cult skill) will spend a large part of their time to improve their capacity to survive (personal skill)

 

25 minutes ago, Shiningbrow said:

We're OT......

I agree but don’t know how to split 😛

[PhilHibbs]

On 12/4/2023 at 8:58 AM, Shiningbrow said:

And this doesn't include the effects from rituals in which there are more participants - which should be a fairly standard effect (which, basically, is the whole point of ritualised magic).

It's not entirely clear whether others can contribute to an inscription. The Well says that it is possible (although only with people that know the spell). Only one sorcerer can use it, but that's less of a show stopper with the Mostali sense of a common goal. Although I'm sure you could come up with reasons why Mostali would not share their POW as readily if you wanted to.