Arduin and BRP

[badcat]

Has anyone here mined Arduin for ideas to use with a BRP-based game? The reason I am asking is I recently found out that apparently, at one point, there was a possibility Chaosium would publish Arduin for Dave Hargrave. (Is there any truth to that? If anyone knows for sure, that is.)

It certainly looks feasible, as Arduin (as it appears in the Compleat Arduin) is largely percentile based, has limited hit points, deadly criticals, etc. And it is one existing setting that could use every power system, milieu of weapons, etc, for sure.

[Shaira]

Arduin is just great, I have a very soft spot for it's blood-curdling chaotic mayhem. Marvellous.

I think Chaosium & Hargrave had quite a bit of truck with one another in the late 70s / early 80s. Lots of Hargrave's stuff turned up in Chaosium's "All The World's Monsters" series, and I remember somewhere (Wyrm's Footnotes?) the main personalities of the Dragon Pass campaign (Harrek, Leika Ballista, Londra, etc) all turning up with Arduin Grimoire game stats, which was fun. As far as Chaosium actually _publishing_ Arduin, I think there were discussions in the early days, before even RuneQuest, but they fell through and Dave ended up going it on his own (which gave us those marvellous little books - still have mine!). I could be wrong on that score though.

A new edition of the Arduin system is due out this year - I forget the name, but you can probably find it on the Emperor's Choice website (Emperors Choice Games and Miniatures Corp. - Home) which releases all the Arduin stuff these days. They also produce the incredible Arduin world book, which despite some very creaky cartography and annoyingly bad English, is an amazing piece of RPG stuff as a single hardback something like 800 pages long and heavy enough to fell a Vroat at ten paces!

As far as using BRP for Arduin gaming, I think you'd only really have one issue to cope with: character power. Arduin campaigns are - traditionally - hell-raising affairs of 50th level paladins felling acres of blaster-armed demons whilst wading through the 21 planes of Hell, or some such. The rules cope very well with high-level play, with some awesome spells and powers that allow characters to approach superhuman levels. It's a similar issue to Gloranthan hero-level, only with a lot more chrome! But, if you can somehow use the BRP rules to deal with that, then, hell, yeah, you could have a ball.

Arduin, Bloody Arduin. I join the thousands in raising a tankard of Rumbletummy's Ale to the shades of your glorious dead! Mad old game.

[Simlasa]

I still dip into that well of ideas... Arduin has been just about the biggest influence on my gaming... in one way or another... since I first got those little books long long ago.

We never used all or most of the books at any one time... never played by those particular rules... but the flavor of them, and the ideas... there was no way to keep those out of our games.

If there was a way to do 'official' Arduin with BRP I'd jump right on it...

Are those new books for it in the same vein as the originals? Do they keep that same wacky cosmic-sink sense of recombinant adventure? Or did someone sit down and try to lay it out so it all made 'sense'?

[Shaira]

Are those new books for it in the same vein as the originals? Do they keep that same wacky cosmic-sink sense of recombinant adventure? Or did someone sit down and try to lay it out so it all made 'sense'?

I think on the whole Arduin has still managed to keep its sense of intense amateurish enthusiasm and gung-ho Sauron-is-a-wimp spell & blaster gaming which got it going in the first place. In no sense can it be said to be polished! To some extent the rules have been laid out to make sense, but even then this is no great gaming conglomerate - you still get the sense it's a bunch of fans making it all keep going. The World Book though is still completely out there - clunky, quirky, and full of mad ideas, very much the flavour of the old stuff.

On the downside, you do end up with some rough spots. Sometimes the artwork's a bit lame, and some of the ideas don't quite come off, or some of the eagerness becomes a little _too_ earnest, and some of the writing quality truly is very, very limp, with lots of crummy grammar and b-movie styling - but the good ideas and the bloody nature of the Arduin beast still keep shining through. Plus it's nice to find out just where the Mountains of Madness and the Great Grass of Forever actually _are_, although sometimes I wish Dave knew a bit more about geomorphology. >:->

As ever, I use it for inspiration, laughs, plundering for ideas, and, for the world book, hammering in nails. I've never played a "straight" Arduin campaign, but I doubt there's many who do.

[Nightshade]

The big problem with converting much Arduin material is its a high-powered, over the top setting by design; BRP usually doesn't handle those that well, and when it tries (as with some versions of SB) it tends to be brittle, because at their base, PCs are just not as capable of dealing with the sort of things the upper end can throw at them barring really powerful magic of their own.

[Atgxtg]

Has anyone here mined Arduin for ideas to use with a BRP-based game? The reason I am asking is I recently found out that apparently, at one point, there was a possibility Chaosium would publish Arduin for Dave Hargrave. (Is there any truth to that? If anyone knows for sure, that is.)

It certainly looks feasible, as Arduin (as it appears in the Compleat Arduin) is largely percentile based, has limited hit points, deadly criticals, etc. And it is one existing setting that could use every power system, milieu of weapons, etc, for sure.

The story, according to Greg Stafford....

Dave was a local guy, so I knew him through the early D&D circle here. Just about all the RPGers knew each other in those days (Perrin, Pimper, Henderson, Hargrave. Not me, really...)

When Chaosium began began publishing rpg material I asked Dave about Arduin (in which I had played a bit) and he assured me it was a "complete game system." I said I'd publish it then, but when I got the manuscript it clearly was not a complete game system. I went ahead and had someone start to lay it out (which, in those days, meant using a selectric typewriter), but the typist found it to be impossible, what with all the tables, his horrid spelling and the general awkwardness of a non-gamer trying to write not just game but Arduin stuff. He kept promising to turn in the rest of the complete system. It never came, and coupled with the typist's problems, I told him I wasn't going to publish it.

He was pretty angry about me "backing out." He stopped talking ot me and pretty much badmouthed me afterwards for years. People--you know the troublemaking sort of gossipers--would tell me about it. I just let it slide. Oh yea, look in one of his spell lists too, for somethign about "Staffor'd Selective Rainbow" or somethign, which drops people out of the sky when they least expect it.

Years went by. One day we wanted to do a sort of commemorative Call of Cthulhu supplement, so I contacted him and asked him to contribute. He'd been having a pretty bad time--divorce, bad health. He was surprised, but sent in a sort of Cthulhu dungeon. It was almost rejected, but I wanted it in even though it was really contrary to the game. Then next time I saw him he came up and apologized, etc. I was glad for that. Why hold grudges for pete's sake? He died a short while after that.

our analysis is pretty good, though his "bursts" could be pretty sustained.

As I said, Dave was a local gamemaster and, frankly, one of the best. He could narrate really well, keeping just enough suspense and surprise to make everyone enjoy it.

He had a regular group he played with and they got to umpty-ump levels of power. I remember one of my friends telling me about the climax of an adventure wherein they were in a bolo tank fighting off Smaug and Shelob. I think that was the one where the player, Rory Root who owns a local comic store now, rolled three or five criticals in a row and destroyed the monsters and brought the entire umpty-levels of the dungeon crashing down on them all.

Dave's Arduin had just about everything in it. You'd just tell him what kind of adventure you wanted and he'd direct the characters to wherever was appropriate. He also had the Arduin Sex Tour, a rather gross but nonetheless amusing series of encounters across the land, before which you would roll for certain body part stats for all the characters. But that was just a lark, not the emphasis.

He didn't give a hoot about realism or consistancy, except within the terms of the game. No one who played in his games cared about that anyway. It was great fun.

Also, as you said, his style didn't appeal to me too much either, and I was into RuneQuest and didn't play too much with him.

I found Greg's story at Q&A with Greg Stafford

[Aycorn]

I still dip into that well of ideas... Arduin has been just about the biggest influence on my gaming... in one way or another... since I first got those little books long long ago.

We never used all or most of the books at any one time... never played by those particular rules... but the flavor of them, and the ideas... there was no way to keep those out of our games.

If there was a way to do 'official' Arduin with BRP I'd jump right on it...

Are those new books for it in the same vein as the originals? Do they keep that same wacky cosmic-sink sense of recombinant adventure? Or did someone sit down and try to lay it out so it all made 'sense'?

Count me in, too. I love those little Arduin books. Even just to leaf through them and steal ideas.

RPG's may have gained a lot of polish and sophistication (although an argument could be made that it's all cosmetic), but they've lost that gung-ho amateurish enthusiasm, which is kinda sad.

[badcat]

Check this out...

http://empcho.bizhosting.com/ca_download.html

[Atgxtg]

Check this out...

Emperors Choice Games and Miniatures Corp. - The Compleat Arduin : Rules

Thanks cat.

I have the hardcopy somewhere, but PDFs are nice for look through. Keep in mind though that the Complete Arduin is actually quite different from the original RPG. It came out a few years after the original books. The first books were D&D based, sort of a uberpowerful D&D.

[Shaira]

Thanks cat.

I have the hardcopy somewhere, but PDFs are nice for look through. Keep in mind though that the Complete Arduin is actually quite different from the original RPG. It came out a few years after the original books. The first books were D&D based, sort of a uberpowerful D&D.

Yup, Compleat Arduin is not bad as a game, doesn't have too many creaky bits, and "makes sense" of a lot of Arduin stuff. I think they were written (or at least completed) after Dave Hargrave died - I think you'd have to get those first three little books to get the Arduin Vibe proper. Sit there with them in your hands, squinting and trying to work out what the hell they are...

[Zane]

YI think you'd have to get those first three little books to get the Arduin Vibe proper. Sit there with them in your hands, squinting and trying to work out what the hell they are...

This is why I don't have any of them in my collection. I had the opportunity to buy most of them in the late 80's and early 90's. In looking at them I wasn't sure what on earth they were, or why I'd want them. I've often regretted not purchasing them, and I'm still not sure what they are!

[Atgxtg]

This is why I don't have any of them in my collection. I had the opportunity to buy most of them in the late 80's and early 90's. In looking at them I wasn't sure what on earth they were, or why I'd want them. I've often regretted not purchasing them, and I'm still not sure what they are!

I read them all. The little books were mostly things like new character classes, monsters, lots of critical and special ability tables, spells, magic items, and the like.

The problem with the books were that they weren't really a game system, more like a bunch of ideas and options that could be fitted into a D&D game. That was the game's major problem. Lots of adds ons, but nothing that they added to.

The "Complete" Ardiun was a system, but not very complete. You couldn't quite add the three books (maybe there were 4) to it either, as the numbers weren't quite compatible.

[badcat]

It looks complete enough for an experienced GM to run. There are a few things not specifically covered in the rules that someone new to the hobby might have a little difficulty filling in. For instance, in the perception rules, percentages are given for night vision, hearing, smell....but not for ordinary visual or searching type rolls (assuming you wanted to use such, as a new GM might think necessary). That is left to GM judgement, so.

There are rules that would likely work better in MRQ if transplanted, like initiative. They are similar, certainly. There is an elegant way to differentiate weapons. Each weapon modifies the base chance to critical or fumble. Spears are nasty, as they get +14% added to the base critical chance. A cruder way to simulate the impale in BRP perhaps, but interesting and the rules make choosing weapons and matching fighting styles more important. It is the usual trade-off, a little more flavor for a little more work.

I could see using some of this in a BRP game, although I would probably want to use the CON + SIZ as a total option for hit points, at least...a short spear does 1D6+6 base damage, for instance. Interesting little game overall, but a pretty radical mixture of mechanics as far as die types go. Usually either percentile or a D20 roll under, with no apparent common ground except it is always roll under. Still, it looks like it could definitely be used to spice up a BRP ruleset.

I just might use the crit modifiers, some of the background stuff and some other bits sometime though. The new game system coming out? soon is called Arduin Eternal. I have no idea what it is going to be like, but it will be interesting to see if they can keep the gonzo feel (as I feel the Compeat Arduin does) and make a more playable system too.

[Atgxtg]

Since Dave HArgrave passed away 20 years ago, there is no telling what direction they might go in. Pershaps update the "complete" book, perhaps go in a differernt direction.

BTW, some of the tings that Complete is missing are in the old 3 book set, but the two sets of books don't quite match up. The classes in the old books are more powerful, overall.

I'll see if I can dig something up on them.

[badcat]

More.....powerful:eek:

The Compleat books don't look to bad, might even be useful, but the original Grimoire from what I can tell, NO THANKS. Besides, they were apparently early D&D splat books, if of a 'special' nature...

[Atgxtg]

More.....powerful:eek:

The Compleat books don't look to bad, might even be useful, but the original Grimoire from what I can tell, NO THANKS. Besides, they were apparently early D&D splat books, if of a 'special' nature...

Exactly. I just wasn't sure if you were aware of that, or thought that they were similar.

That is one reason why there is speculation over how much input Dave Hargrave had over the Complete RPG. It is very different from D&D. It is possible that he went into a different direction, but it is also possible that the RPG has little to do with his own games.

[Nightshade]

More.....powerful:eek:

Oh, yes. Arduin was at one time, the chaotic definition of what high powered D&D style gaming was (the lawful version was CalTech's _Warlock_).

[drohem]

I have the original three booklets. The thing I liked the most about it was the way he dealt with Hit Points. A low-level warrior could stand next to a high-level warrior and not fall in the first or second round of combat. There were a lot of cool combat ideas.

I played with a group that used the booklets, and it was extremely high-powered. It was a little too much for my tastes, but there are many gems to be mined from the booklets.

I know it was later developed into a full RPG. Thanks for the link. I am going to download it and take a look to see how it developed into a full-blown RPG.

[badcat]

You are welcome.

Actually, I couldn't stand waiting for the BRP book, so I went looking for more resources for my game (other than Arcanum) not to mention something to scratch my game book itch. I found that download and liked it well enough that I ordered the Compleat Arcanum Reprint and a little book called the 'Black Grimoire', which is supposed to be a listing of all the spells created for Arduin, from all the sources.

It actually looks like it might play pretty good, although the mechanics are a little math-heavy and confused and the deadliness meter seems turned up from even BRP standards. There are some great ideas and resources though, certainly. My understanding from my research is that it is 95% of the first eight or nine Arduin booklets, put in some degree of order (that is, combat stuff is together, background stuff is together, magic stuff is together,etc.). If I were going to run it I would cut out a lot of the fat. I mean, Kobbits? Electric blue Kobbits, at that? And intermediary skill systems and so on. Probably convert it to attack/parry too.

The downloads are only the chargen, basic magic rules, and combat portions of the whole thing. The reprint itself is 488 pages long, all the material from the earlier Compleat books plus a little bit. When I found out they were working on a new game system for Arduin I decided to get these while they were still around. I'm pretty sure they will be useful for material for BRP just as they were for D&D...

[drohem]

Yeah, there is some wackado stuff in the original booklets

[Atgxtg]

Yeah, there is some wackado stuff in the original booklets

A sign of the times. Sort of like Jurassic Park. Back then people were so keen on trying to see if they could do something up for an RPG that they didn't really worry about if they should do it up for an RPG.

Techno, undead elves, PCs who could be giants, lycanthopes or part dragon as part of class special tables....

[mrk]

I was a friend of David's from long ago and even own quite a bit of unpublished material. All of it is wonderful to have, but my my most prized possession is an extremely rare 1st edition of AG 7 that he gave to me containing a write up on the Cult of the Crimson Kiss which was quickly pulled by the publishers on later editions. But that's another story...

David really was a great fantasist and game designer. Everything that David wrote in the Arduin Grimoires didn't even amount to 1% of what was contained in his world. He told me once a few months before he died that only 25% of the mysteries of Arduin were actually discovered after 14 years of gaming and maybe about 5% of the world itself. He was a master at creating maps and had not just Arduin, but over half a dozen countries that he hand drew personally plus all the continents, Dungeons, cities,ect. He even had THREE different maps of Arduin that were set in various times and eras. Emperors choice sells the prime Arduin map. It's not as nice as the original was, but it's worth purchasing. Especially when you see how brilliant David was when it came to creating really cool names.

One last thing I need to point out is this label that Arduin was always monty hall and over the top. Sure there was some serious power gaming going on at times, but the majority of his game sessions were more in the low and medium level range ( you would be shocked to see just how tame his own PC's were if you were to look at the actual character sheets). Even more important, David had a really good understand of how his world worked and wouldn't just put "anything" there for the sake of it--It HAD to have a reason for it's existence--and a good one at that. Even though he envisioned Arduin as sort of a nexus hub to many worlds and a melting pot for all sorts of races, technology, cultures, ect. There was an order to the chaos.

Edited February 1, 2009 by mrk

[Steve Mitchell]

Thirty-plus years ago, I played a lot of White Box D&D with my local gaming group. Except about half of White Box D&D made no sense to us, so we tossed the magic system and used the one from Tunnels & Trolls instead, and then grabbed a bunch of character creation options and other things from Arduin. That's how I ended up with a werebear-fighter character.

I gave him the very clever name of "Ursus." I still have the mini; his adventuring days long behind him now, he's resting peacefully on a type-drawer display in our kitchen.

[Tywyll]

I've been a huge Arduin fan since I first learned of it... which unfortunately was shortly after the 8th Grimoire came out, shortly after Dave died.

The first 3 books are definitely a White Box dnd add on, but man, the ideas in them. Sure, a lot of it was pure crazy, but so was a lot of the early dnd stuff that has bled into becoming recognizable tropes. The later Grimoires were always more interesting to me, simply because they had more of the 'feel' of the setting. The rules contained obviously were drifting from dnd by that point, but you couldn't really build a cohesive game from them or even idea of what you were supposed to do with them.

Complete Arduin came out after Dave passed away. I'm fairly sure he wrote most of it, but I don't know for certain. It's definitely different from what was in the Grimoires, even the later ones, but was close enough that they could be used together.

I think BRP could do an Arduin game quite well, but I agree that you'd have to leave out the more gonzo stuff (which I always did anyway). That or simply accept that all characters will eventually become Supers on top of whatever they started as.

Empcho is trying to publish a new, modern Arduin system. They have talked about it on their boards and I can't really say any more than that.

[mrk]

The Complete Arduin books were taken from Davids magnum opus " Arduin, Bloody, Arduin"( what a great title) and edited down to the two Complete Arduin books. Most of it is his, but some things( like the Kthoi write up) were done by one of the editors and there's quite a bit of stuff they left out as they had plans to put a third book together. Can't say the same about much of Emperors choice "new" material. Especially their world book of Khass as it wasn't even written by David and just someone else's "interpretation" who for that matter never even new him or played with any of his key players. What little is actually authentic, was simple pulled out of the AG's, rewritten, and included a rendition of the original map of the main continent were Arduin is located. The rest is someone else's ideas ( sigh).

Edited February 3, 2009 by mrk