Women in Esrolian militia

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

That looks similar to commissars in early Soviet armies.

yep in the idea, I think the same source. I have the idea from some SF movies like the (not very good in my opinion) netflix rebel moon with the masked people (don't know their role exactly) but that SF were based on soviet and before religious inquisitors I think

however their scope could be limited to very few thinkgs. But even with a few scope, you may find people who want to be more involved in leaders business, even if they don't have skills for that

 

Edited January 12 by French Desperate WindChild

[Ynneadwraith]

5 hours ago, radmonger said:

1. classical (Manirian?) culture Orlanthi, where Lightning means anyone in the room can kill anyone else.

2. solar/pentan cultures, where Sunspear means those with legitimate authority can kill those without.

3. [Paraphrasing] Ernaldan cultures where Bless Champion means anyone with prior blessing from an Ernaldan can kill those without.

As an aside, I adore this as a conceptualisation of how different patterns of leadership evolved in Storm Vs Solar Vs Earth cultures.

Probably a question for another topic, but I wonder what the offers of magic from other pantheons (or foreign variations of familiar pantheons) might game out to in interactions like this...

[AlexS]

@Squaredeal Sten's question was specifically about the militia, so it's interesting that a lot of the (great) contributions here have actually been about military roles that go way beyond the Irillo Hundreds.

I think there are actually two very different military contexts in play here, which relate to what in UK terms we might call the 'territorial army' and the 'professional army'. The two kinds of military march together when the whole of Esrolian society goes to war (like at Pennel Ford), but otherwise they have quite distinct social roles and associated socialisation processes – which also translates into differences in gendered patterns of military activity.

When Esrolia mobilises for war, then along with the Irillo Hundred fyrd/militia the Queens will deploy specialist units associated with different War Gods, Husband Protectors and Noble Brothers (Axe Maiden followers of Babeester and Maran Gor, Humakti battalions, Orlanthi weaponthanes, Argan Argar Kimantorings, Yelmalion hoplites, etc.). @M Helsdon's Armies and Enemies of Dragon Pass does a great job of describing these units. 

Aside from female-gendered military specialist roles like the Axe Maidens, there are three high-visibility military roles played by Esrolian women in this kind of full-mobilisation situation.

The first, as @radmonger has pointed out, is casting Bless Champion on chosen Wind Lords or Kimantorings. This is the classic Enferalda function common to Esrolians and Heortlings, which positions Ernalda as the source of inspiration and protection in battle. 

The second role (much more specific and in practice largely confined to Esrolia and Old Tarsh) is deploying an absolutely terrifying range of Earth magic – from channelling Ernalda's power to summon giant Talosi that can swallow whole cavalry wings to calling on Maran's Earthshaker magic to sunder the ground beneath an enemy phalanx's feet. 

The third role is actually being a physical presence on the front line. Esrolian 'warrior queens' don't have to be Vingans or Axe Maidens to 'lead from the font'; they can function almost like a living battle standard by deliberately breaking their society's gender norms, leaving the safety of the command tent and taking positions that expose them to risks and thereby spur the male (and Vingan, Axe Maiden etc.) fighters onto even greater efforts. Think Joan of Arc riding into the thick of battle against the English, or (at a more symbolic level) Queen Elizabeth I donning a breastplate for her Tilbury speech to the troops.

So, while I agree with @Ynneadwraith and others that it makes sense for Esrolian armies to be directed by women at the Grand Strategy and Strategic levels of the Clausewitzian command hierarchy, I think their role in giving those armies their distinctive feel goes way beyond that.

In this kind of full-mobilisation scenario, battles will be won or lost in clashes of individual heroes, professional military units and magical specialists. The militia are basically there to be used as cannon fodder (or literally as building materials, in the case of Belintar's strategy for defeating the Lunars).

Outside of this scenario, however, the militia come into their own. They are engaged in guarding the city walls, patrolling the roads, chasing away predators, hunting down bandits etc., and this means that they are generally perceived as serving a worthwhile social function despite their relatively modest battlefield prowess.

However, this function of the 'territorial army' is not primarily military – it is more about social control. Not just the general need of a community to control external threats like bandits and beasts, but the specific need of a matriarchal society to control an internal threat: the capacity for random violence of unattached young men.

So what does this imply for the gender composition of Esrolia's militia units? @Jeff says that

On 1/11/2024 at 8:52 PM, Jeff said:

Esrolia is an Orlanthi society

and I think that this is especially true as regards the gendered nature of the Irillo Hundreds.

As Jeff tells it in articles like this one, Sartarite (Heortling) militia training starts with the ephebe-type experience of groups of young Orlanthi men and Vingans going off into the hills to learn survival skills and practice cattle raiding, while the young women and Nandani go to Ernalda's temple to learn about stuff like childbirth and healing. 

Because of their higher social status (compared to men) and the greater sophistication of their society (compared to the rural Orlanthi at least), young Esrolian women are likely have to learn a much larger range of negotiation, leadership and management skills than their Sartarite counterparts, as well as having the possibility to learn a more sophisticated range of crafting practices (which are often linked to social and political skills, as evidenced in the great material on 'Societies of the Cloth' in @jajagappa's version of Nochet). 

So what does Esrolian society do with all the young men while the young women are busy learning about weaving and politics as well as sex and healing? Allowing these young men and Vingans to hang out in groups on the fringes of society, indulging in a little light banditry and generally causing trouble, is not an option for a tightly-regulated and densely-populated society like Esrolia.

The answer must be to send them off to drill with the local Irillo Hundred militia. There they get to dress up in armour and practice fighting, take lots of physical exercise, undergo hazing rituals, drinking competitions and other male bonding activities to their heart's content and generally express their unreconstructed masculinity (or Vingan identity – see this scene in Starship Troopers for an example of enthusiastic female participation in this kind of male-gendered military bonding ritual). This all happens under the watchful eye either of Axe Maidens or of Irillo, Vogarth, Orlanth or Argan Argar cultists who have been socialised into leading other men into battle not in independent heroic warband fashion but rather as part of a strategy directed by Queens and other politically important women.

So, my answer to the original question would be that yes, Esrolian women do participate in the Irillo Hundred system – but those who are not Vingans or Axe Maidens are massively outnumbered by the male militiamen, because there are very strong social incentives to direct the majority of young men towards the militia, whereas young women have a much wider range of higher-status options to which they can dedicate this period of their social initiation.

[Squaredeal Sten]

3 hours ago, AlexS said:

@Squaredeal Sten's question was specifically about the militia, so it's interesting that a lot of the (great) contributions here have actually been about military roles that go way beyond the Irillo Hundreds./.......

........So, my answer to the original question would be that yes, Esrolian women do participate in the Irillo Hundred system – but those who are not Vingans or Axe Maidens are massively outnumbered by the male militiamen, because there are very strong social incentives to direct the majority of young men towards the militia, whereas young women have a much wider range of higher-status options to which they can dedicate this period of their social initiation.

Which trak3s us back to:  So what accounts for the Esrolian women having "cultural weapon skills"?  Not as cult skills, because  that is a different step in character creation.

[Jeff]

1 hour ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

Which trak3s us back to:  So what accounts for the Esrolian women having "cultural weapon skills"?  Not as cult skills, because  that is a different step in character creation.

The same reason that Sartarite women have "cultural weapon skills".

[radmonger]

On 1/14/2024 at 9:46 PM, Squaredeal Sten said:

So what accounts for the Esrolian women having "cultural weapon skills"?  Not as cult skills, because  that is a different step in character creation.

To expand on my answer, because cultural skills represent not militia training, but mostly skills learnt in childhood. Playing games, listening to stories, and the local equivalent of Sunday school. And neither Sartar nor Esrolia treat children in a strongly gendered way; gender is gained upon initiation. And then, as in the real world, gender highly influences, but usually doesn't determine, occupation.  Which is wisely left to player choice not game system.

Of course, any actual 15 year old NPC would have some low level of occupation skills too, depending on their parents occupation. That detail is left out of the RQ;G rules;  i guess someone finally found a detail to fiddly to simulate 🙂

There is a subtle point to be made about the thelyalan gender system in that is, while not binary, seneray[1]. it claims to support all choices, but insists a choice must be made, Women, in particular are either fighters or mothers, Ernalda or Maran Gor. They can be Helerings who can change that choice, but once they have done so, they must follow that choice until it comes time to change back. 

The lunars break that system, as they break the pentad of elements. Jar Eel the Razoress is the 7th gender; capably of being simultaneously sexual and deadly. 

 

[1] i did have to look that up

 

 

Edited January 16 by radmonger

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

To expand on my answer, because cultural skills represent not militia training, but mostly skills learnt in childhood. Playing games, listening to stories, and the local equivalent of Sunday school.

I fully agree with it

however

1 hour ago, radmonger said:

And neither Sartar nor Esrolia treat children in a strongly gendered way; gender is gained upon initiation.

but here, there is something I see as an issue (from a logical perspective)

Note, I may be wrong and may not understand what the background says but

- (1) in all publications I saw I have noted that the vast majority of women (gender) have woman body and the vast majority of men (gender) have man body. Of course we may find exception

- (2) It is said that a lot of women are initiate of Ernalda and a lot of men are initiate of Orlanth

 

what I understand or imagine (and what is the issue with cultural weapon skill in the creation process) is that children in the vast majority of case are already "gendered" because there is a correlation between body and gender (1).

So for me, as they show already some tendency we may see a correlation between their "future gender initiation" (2 who is initiate of who) and the games they play, the stories they like, etc.. This boy will probably like to play the warrior - hero or help his father to cut trees when this girl will play the doctor (as future Ernalda healer) and help her mother to cook (as future Ernalda mother / house leader).

As Sartar / Esrolia / Orlanthi society are "open" (Is it the right word ? in french yes but in english), noone will try to force a boy (body) to play the "warrior" and not the "doctor" or to forbid a girl (body) to not help Dady to cut trees and defy the boys in some fights.

But "probably" doesn't mean "must". A boy (gender) may dislike to fight, or a girl (gender) may like to fight.

 

So is gender the true (or the only) determining factor ? IMHO no. Everything is possible, and in those "open" communities where a lot of genders and cults are accepted, a lot of things are possible (no, chaos is not an option, really...)

 

For me, I would prefer to have a list of cultural weapons, sure. But not a percentage to apply automatically. More a step of "restrictive personal skills" where players can pick up 3 skills (5?) among a set of "childhood" skills (cultural weapon skills, daily household/community skills) and distribute 60% (80% ?) with a maximum per skill. The next step ("open" personal skills of the rules allowing to add % to the same skills that this restrictive steps)

It would let a wider range of options

An Ernaldan initiate may have weapon skills as in the rules, but the difference will be because the player wants and builds the character to like fight (or for any reason had to learn weapons when she was child) when another player would prefer to have a [really unskilled on war business] woman to play, choice not possible with the rules

In the same way an Orlanthi initiate may not have any weapon skills, or a lower % than what the rules say, because the player wants the character to be a light dreamer, , singing to the clouds, dancing under the rain, but who try to avoid contact with most violent childs. Or maybe not a poet, but more an intellectual (nerd ?) who dislike or flee confrontation and "virile" challenge (yes I m talking about myself when I was young 🙂 )

Again that does'nt mean that a poet or an intellectual dislike to fight, just that is possible to find poet or intellectual who "succeed" to avoid any martial activity during their childhood

 

 

[radmonger]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

what I understand or imagine (and what is the issue with cultural weapon skill in the creation process) is that children in the vast majority of case are already "gendered" because there is a correlation between body and gender (1).

i guess if you did a statistical survey of the Nochet polution, you might find adult ernaldans have 8% cultural spear skill instead of 10%, or some such. But there are approximately 4000 ways of improving the rules before they got to the point where adding extra accuracy there would be a reasonable priority.

By not gendered, i mean that there aren't Esrolian toy stores with aisles of pink and blue toys. Everyone plays the same games and wears the same clothes. Some parents will no doubt say of a daughter hitting her brother with a stick 'stop being such a little vingan'. Others will smile indulgently.

content warning for spoiler, on topic you can hopefully predict from context

Spoiler

The way the classic orlanthi initation works is (i think) that the parents and elders decide the likely and/or preferred gender for any particular child, and submit them to the appropriate ordeal. Sometimes they are wrong, and the child is traumautised by failure of a magical ordeal testing qualities they do not possess. Sometimes trying the right option next year works, but this is a source of a lot of damaged people in classic orlanthi society. One smart woman with a beard called this 'sex correlation pitfall'.

 

 

Harald Smith's Nochet: Queen of Cities has an interesting variation on the adulthood initiation ordeal, which  may or not be local. Rather than two ordeals, two children go into the ordeal. two ypung adults come out[2]. The resulting transformation obeys some kind of gender symmetry rule; they are either a man and a woman, a vingan and a nandam, or some other similar combination.

Here the role of the Grandmothers is to pick the two children paired for the ordeal, who are commonly cousins. If is especially politically vital that a particular child turn out to a woman, the other cousin will already have a beard and chest hair. But pushing this too far leads only to tragedy. Noone comes out; the children are lost to the Otherworld.

 

 

 

1. starting with the idea of cutting the number of different spear skills to single digits[3]. 

2. the YA  novel  implicit here basically writes itself.

3 but you could add a rule  to drop a skill you have above base by 10% to gain say 5% elsewhere .

 

 

Edited January 16 by radmonger

[jajagappa]

3 hours ago, radmonger said:

2. the YA  novel  implicit here basically writes itself.

I did start my Kimonssaga, but got busy with JC works... 🙂 (Kimon is a son of Queen Hendira, but aids Samastina escaping Nochet and later goes through initiation into adulthood - and which I envisioned as tied into the ending of the Great Winter.)

[soltakss]

On 1/11/2024 at 9:26 PM, Jeff said:

What is the Esrolian characterisation of men? 

Having played in a couple of CJ's excellent romps around the Great Houses of Esrola, they see men as  having their uses but as being ultimately a waste of time and resources.

[Jeff]

22 minutes ago, soltakss said:

Having played in a couple of CJ's excellent romps around the Great Houses of Esrola, they see men as  having their uses but as being ultimately a waste of time and resources.

That's likely a pretty fringe characterisation. Like I posted earlier, the Esrolians have the same basic view of the differences between the genders that other Orlanthi have. Their big difference is that they put the Earth Goddess and her priestesses at the center of the social order instead of Orlanth (and his warriors). So one way of thinking about this is that most Orlanthi communities put a martial leader (and a martial deity) in charge. The Esrolians put a fertility-bringer in charge. That ends having big social implications - the top leaders in Esrolia are almost always women; the top leaders in most other Orlanthi societies are usually (but not always) men. 

But just as few Sartarite men view women as "having their uses but ultimately a waste of time and resources", I suspect very few Esrolians view men that way. Men are their husbands, their brothers, their sons, and their fathers. Men are most useful for war, but they are also useful for farming, for making things, for sex, for aesthetics, for reading and writing, for trade, etc. Men lead most martial activities - it is just that those activities are always held in check by the Earth Priestesses.

[Yazurkial]

I just wanted to add two things:

First, throughout history, we see some levels of control maintained by having the heaviest element of your military most tied to you. For Romans, it was legions. For the Ptolemies, it was the "Macedonians" (who were not necessarily Macedonian). In medieval times, it was knights. And so on. In Esrolia, it strikes me that it would be the Axe Maidens.

Second, and completely separately, we think a lot about battles being about clashing armies, but we have to also think about the clash of heroes that would typically precede a clash of armies. If you have an army on one side and Harrek with a regiment of caterers on the other, Harrek probably wins. If you have Harrek and Jar-eel on opposite sides, the superheroes are busy trying to eke out some small advantage against the other, and the battle can be decided by the armies. So the big buff given by Bless Champion and the like can completely decide the battle by tipping the clash of heroes decisively. Where the Esrolian Queen decides who the blessed champion is, none of the male militias will be able to dominate any of the others over time. That might not be entirely true where one potential champion is a hero in his own right, like Belintar. But it would not surprise me for Esrolian Queens to rotate the honor among the militias in order to maintain a greater balance of prestige between them than would appear to be true from the population percentages. Nor would it surprise me to find that Esrolian queens have a bunch of treasures that they "customarily" hand out preferentially to whoever has fewer dudes, to buff them a bit in prestige. I imagine that they have a lot of other ways of preventing dominance by any fo the male militias, and that these and the cultural aspects mutually reinforce each other.