Martial Arts and Grapple

[Redcrow]

What I'm trying to say is that the Martial Artist will probably come by the critical information on advantageous locations to strike sooner.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree on that point. I think the Brawler who gets hit in the throat (or strikes someone else in the throat) during a fight learns just as quickly how advantageous the strike is as a Martial Artist who is told by his Sensei "hit 'em in the throat". I don't believe that all Martial Arts are created equal, though. Its just that I don't believe that Brawling is inferior to Martials Arts in general and shouldn't be treated as such in the game. YMMV.

[icebrand]

I can't think of any reason an experienced Brawler would be incapable of performing any technique that a Martial Artist could. The only real differences I see between the two is where/how they learned their techniques. Its definitely possible for a Martial Artist to know techniques that a Brawler doesn't, but I can't think of any reason a Martial Artist would know any techniques that a Brawler couldn't also know.

I can't think any reason a brawler would learn how to, lets say, perform a falling step (basic boxing). How does this brawler learn how to walk, position, when to attack, when not to, etc?

Also, please define street brawler. A guy with NO training that what? Fights on the street? Why? How often? Really, this seems out of a movie!

[Redcrow]

I can't think any reason a brawler would learn how to, lets say, perform a falling step (basic boxing). How does this brawler learn how to walk, position, when to attack, when not to, etc?

What prevents a Brawler from learning any of that? Experience is a wonderful teacher. Some would even say its the best teacher. Something that makes Brawling so effective is its unpredictability because not every Brawler is necessarily going to know the same sets of techniques. Learning things like positioning, stance, when to attack and when to duck can be picked up through experience. If you don't know how to make a fist and punch someone, how long would it take you to learn after being on the receiving end or even just witnessing it in a fight that doesn't involve you?

Also, please define street brawler. A guy with NO training that what? Fights on the street? Why? How often? Really, this seems out of a movie!

Again, untrained does not necessarily equal inexperienced. There are many sub-cultures right here in the United States for which Brawling is a way of life like Street Gangs, Biker Gangs, etc. Unfortunately, many formally trained Martial Artists envision that all Brawlers are just fat, beer swilling couch potatos who may get into the occasional bar or street fight and may know how to punch, kick, and bite and little else because they didn't train in a dojo under the guidance of a Sensei.

IMO, the idea that Martial Arts are all inherently better than Brawling is misguided and uninformed. One good punch can end a fight and I have no reason to believe that a Brawler couldn't deliver that punch as easily as a trained Martial Artist. I've actually seen it happen.

[Andrew23]

While this has been an interesting thread, as with most combat threads on RPG fora it all gets confused with perceptions of real world combat. Remember the skill scores are, even in BRP, just a way of grading skills ... Conan with 120 in sword is a lot better than Merlin with 40 who is a lot better than me with 5, the numbers aren't actual probabilities (even if they look that way and we often use them that way) otherwise Conan can't have 120 and I should probably have more than 5 (as long as you stand still but then you won't). One of the features of BRP is that the higher your skill the harder it is to improve so in the long run I will catch up to Conan. The MA skill makes it easier to have very skilled fighters so not only does Conan have 120 in sword he also has 90 in sword MA and since I don't have sword MA at all, I'll never match Conan. So the point of the MA skill is not to somehow simulate a trained fighter's greater ability to do damage but to simulate a trained fighter's greater ability to win fights -- making it give the combat expert greater damage sometimes, is a nice simple, low bookkeeping way of doing this, so even if I have gained lots of experience since I don't have MA Conan should still win. Another simple way would be to use the MA as a second attack that round at a lower Dex (-5 is usual), so Conan strikes twice but I only ever strike once, so Conan mostly win even if I get my sword skill to 130. So you can use grapple MA this way and keep it simple, the Judoista gets 2 grapples a round the Kickboxer 2 kicks etc, the grapples could be a grab and then damage, or grab and then takedown etc. I always let MA be used as either a second attack OR a second defense (without the usual penalty) and I even allow missle MA, Billy the Kid gets 2 shots to my one, so even if he is using a colt handgun at range v my rifle with scope he may well win.

[icebrand]

What prevents a Brawler from learning any of that? Experience is a wonderful teacher. Some would even say its the best teacher. Something that makes Brawling so effective is its unpredictability because not every Brawler is necessarily going to know the same sets of techniques. Learning things like positioning, stance, when to attack and when to duck can be picked up through experience. If you don't know how to make a fist and punch someone, how long would it take you to learn after being on the receiving end or even just witnessing it in a fight that doesn't involve you?

Do you have experience in full contact fights? It doesn't really sound like it. You do not learn certain things by experience, it simply does not happen. Lets say the techniques are how the chess pieces move, and the "unpredictability" comes from strategy. There are certain CORRECT ways to throw a punch (that vary slightly from style to style) and there are INCORRECT ways to do it (that basically cause less damage and/or hurt yourself).

Again, untrained does not necessarily equal inexperienced. There are many sub-cultures right here in the United States for which Brawling is a way of life like Street Gangs, Biker Gangs, etc. Unfortunately, many formally trained Martial Artists envision that all Brawlers are just fat, beer swilling couch potatos who may get into the occasional bar or street fight and may know how to punch, kick, and bite and little else because they didn't train in a dojo under the guidance of a Sensei.

IMO, the idea that Martial Arts are all inherently better than Brawling is misguided and uninformed. One good punch can end a fight and I have no reason to believe that a Brawler couldn't deliver that punch as easily as a trained Martial Artist. I've actually seen it happen.

Those subcultures you talk about *DO* train martial arts (or contact sports). Sensei and stuff is completely irrelevant; if someone teaches you how to fight (boxing, kick boxing, muay thai, or WHATEVER) you are trained.

Also, of course one punch can end a fight, but most times it does not. You really need to be really really really *very* lucky to knockout someone who knows what hes doing with one punch.

[Redcrow]

So you can use grapple MA this way and keep it simple, the Judoista gets 2 grapples a round the Kickboxer 2 kicks etc, the grapples could be a grab and then damage, or grab and then takedown etc. I always let MA be used as either a second attack OR a second defense (without the usual penalty) and I even allow missle MA, Billy the Kid gets 2 shots to my one, so even if he is using a colt handgun at range v my rifle with scope he may well win.

Its your game and you are free to do with it as you wish of course. I just hate the separation of Brawling from other Martial Arts as if it were inherently inferior. I guess I just don't understand the reasoning behind why a Martial Artist should gain an additional combat action while a Brawler of equal skill does not nor the reasoning behind why the Martial Artist would do more damage by default. It assumes that a Martial Artist with 50% skill is always better and will typically always win against a Brawler with 50% skill because for some unknown reason the Martial Artist strikes harder and more often. If it were broken down by individual Martial Arts or even better based on specific techniques I could probably agree to an extent, but I just can't get behind the notion that Martial Arts in general are always better than Brawling. Again, its your game so do as you wish.

I'm obviously in the minority on this point, so I won't say anymore about it.

[Redcrow]

Do you have experience in full contact fights? It doesn't really sound like it.

Yes, I've had more than my share of full contact fights. Both in formal tournaments and on the streets. I've been stabbed twice and shot once as well. You can believe what you wish, but I would say you have little experience or too many Martial Arts movies and/or too much Martial Arts culture has adversely colored your view.

I will say nothing more.

[icebrand]

Yes, I've had more than my share of full contact fights. Both in formal tournaments and on the streets. I've been stabbed twice and shot once as well. You can believe what you wish, but I would say you have little experience or too many Martial Arts movies and/or too much Martial Arts culture has adversely colored your view.

I will say nothing more.

Well, i guess i have too little experience then, having never being actually shot at (the worst i got was getting pistol-whipped). I guess i have little experience *shrugs*. Every streetfight ive been, or people that trained with me have, was a non issue (unless they were many vs. 1); i guess the "streetfighter subculture" must really love what they do, since they could... i don't know, get into a boxing ring and earn millions?

[Redcrow]

i guess the "streetfighter subculture" must really love what they do, since they could... i don't know, get into a boxing ring and earn millions?

This seems like a strawman. I have never said that Brawling is superior to formal Martial Arts. I've just been arguing that it should not be viewed as inherently inferior to all formal Martial Arts. Big difference.

[Pete Nash]

I personally side with Redcrow on this one. The term 'martial arts' has a lot of pop-culture baggage associated with it, something which still colours the word despite nearly two decades of effort from European historians and martial practitioners to overturn the far-eastern mystique it still possesses. A 'martial art' is nothing more than a fighting tradition. It merely describes a skill of learning to fight and shouldn't even be unarmed specific, which is why in MRQ2 there was no Martial Arts skill.

Is brawling inferior to karate? I do not believe so. They may expound different techniques, but there is no real difference between the core aspects of both styles - which comprise of far more than just knowing how to throw a punch correctly (there's psychology, intimidation, feints, pain tolerance, timing, etc ad nausium). Karate might offer lots of fancy kicks, whereas Glaswegian pub brawling might emphasise on headbutts and bites. Karate might offer once a week kata training and GPB might start with uncle Frank showing you the basics in a back alley, then the usual Friday night scrap down at the Kilt and Todger.

Karate is a martial art; as is brawling, boxing, wrestling, pankration, fencing, halberd fighting, Ecky Thump and all the other weird and wonderful traditions out there.

Is one superior to the other? Not in the real world. In the end, it all comes down to how experienced each individual is... and that is portrayed in BRP by the actual percentage value next to the skill.

Edited September 27, 2011 by Pete Nash

[RosenMcStern]

Its your game and you are free to do with it as you wish of course. I just hate the separation of Brawling from other Martial Arts as if it were inherently inferior. I guess I just don't understand the reasoning behind why a Martial Artist should gain an additional combat action while a Brawler of equal skill does not nor the reasoning behind why the Martial Artist would do more damage by default. It assumes that a Martial Artist with 50% skill is always better and will typically always win against a Brawler with 50% skill because for some unknown reason the Martial Artist strikes harder and more often.

Wait.

This is not how it works in BRP. It works this way in GURPS (Karate is a physical skill), but not in the Big Gold Book.

There cannot be any fight between a 50% martial artist and a 50% brawler in BRP, because the Karate user cannot use his Karate to strike. He must use his Brawl to strike, Karate only increases his damage. As the Brawler can parry, and there is no longer any rule that limits the amount of damage he can parry with a fist, Martial Arts will not be more effective aganst a really experienced thug than good Brawling would. The chance of taking an opponent down with a SINGLE blow increases with martial arts, but MA alone cannot decide the winner of a fight: the basic Brawling skill will. Well, I think this depicts reality rather well: I expect the one with the longest experience in real fights to win, but I do not suppose he will do so by hitting the "secret spot" that a guy who attended a dojo will

The rules differentiate between:

a) your ability to "handle" melee correctly, which is learned in street fights rather than dojos: this is the Brawling skill

your ability to apply secret techniques that rely also on concentration and knowledge of anatomy, which are learned in formal training rather than street fights: this is the MA skill

is useless if not coupled with a)

These are the rules. They work fine. You may add extra effects to MA to represent the various styles, but the basic concept is ok. I really cannot understand this "Martial Arts vs. Brawling" argument, as long as BRP is concerned. They are different skills, it is like discussing "Driving vs. Repair (Car)".

[icebrand]

I personally side with Redcrow on this one. The term 'martial arts' has a lot of pop-culture baggage associated with it, something which still colours the word despite nearly two decades of effort from European historians and martial practitioners to overturn the far-eastern mystique it still possesses. A 'martial art' is nothing more than a fighting tradition. It merely describes a skill of learning to fight and shouldn't even be unarmed specific, which is why in MRQ2 there was no Martial Arts skill.

Is brawling inferior to karate? I do not believe so. They may expound different techniques, but there is no real difference between the core aspects of both styles - which comprise of far more than just knowing how to throw a punch correctly (there's psychology, intimidation, feints, pain tolerance, timing, etc ad nausium). Karate might offer lots of fancy kicks, whereas Glaswegian pub brawling might emphasise on headbutts and bites. Karate might offer once a week kata training and GPB might start with uncle Frank showing you the basics in a back alley, then the usual Friday night scrap down at the Kilt and Todger.

Karate is a martial art; as is brawling, boxing, wrestling, pankration, fencing, halberd fighting, Ecky Thump and all the other weird and wonderful traditions out there.

Is one superior to the other? Not in the real world. In the end, it all comes down to how experienced each individual is... and that is portrayed in BRP by the actual percentage value next to the skill.

Erm, i thought it was pretty clear i consider boxing, wrestling, etc as "martial arts". Lets "run" the numbers RQ-wise, ok?

A "brawler" starts with 25%+Mod, and fights how many times a year? Thats x points worth of checks.

A "boxer" starts with 25%+Mod, trains (if he's anywhere near serious, lets say 12hrs a week, bare minimum) + fights (sparring) + fights (matches). He also does a ton of physical conditioning.

Now, you are saying that the brawler is somewhat better and/or has a significant chance to win? Mind you, if the brawler does train/condition, then i'd consider it as another martial art...

[Pete Nash]

Now, you are saying that the brawler is somewhat better and/or has a significant chance to win?

No. I'm saying the most skilful fighter should win.

Mind you, if the brawler does train/condition, then i'd consider it as another martial art...

Precisely my point.

[Zit]

a) your ability to "handle" melee correctly, which is learned in street fights rather than dojos: this is the Brawling skill

your ability to apply secret techniques that rely also on concentration and knowledge of anatomy, which are learned in formal training rather than street fights: this is the MA skill

is useless if not coupled with a)

These are the rules. They work fine. You may add extra effects to MA to represent the various styles, but the basic concept is ok. I really cannot understand this "Martial Arts vs. Brawling" argument, as long as BRP is concerned. They are different skills, it is like discussing "Driving vs. Repair (Car)".

You're right. Not much to add.

Well, just a bit.

I think the description of the brawling skill in the rules makes confuse : if brawling is a kind of natural, almost instinctive way to use your body to hit, improving mostly with experience (a), the rules say "use this skill for unarmed combat: punches, kicks, head butts, etc." Well, this is actually what many unarmed martial arts do and may lead to the conclcusion that, in the rules, brawling = MA. Hence a long debate about the need or not of a MA skill.

But what you just wrote is clarifying the concept, which is well working for brawling.

For those who consider that anyway brawling and martial arts are just a different approaches of unarmed combat, without MA bringing more efficiency, they can just forget the MA skill which becomes in this case superfluous.

But let's go back to the subject of this thread: MA with grapple.

If we want to use MA with grapple, reducing it to double damage is not adapted anymore, since grapple is not (only) about doing damage. This was the first question. Then, what to do with MA as grappling? We need some home rules: some propose to add an action (MA can increase speed - this is a simple option, usable for any fighting skill) or to increase the effectiveness of a grappling effect (like an automatic success or some boni ?) or to add some exotic effects according to the art, etc. There are some ideas in this thread, and some more in TCE or Dragon Lines.

Note that this can also debated for weapons (and especially for archery), where 1) doubling the damage may not be very relevant and 2) weapon skills requires anyway a training learning specific techniques, inclusive optimizing the damage, and are as such martial arts. But I don't want to start a new debate!

Any volunteer to write a rule extension ?

[SDLeary]

Now, you are saying that the brawler is somewhat better and/or has a significant chance to win? Mind you, if the brawler does train/condition, then i'd consider it as another martial art...

This.

I think that Brawl for the skill name is somewhat unfortunate. When I hear Brawl, Brawling, or Brawler, I get visions of a bar fight, people coming to blows at a metro station, etc. One or more MAY be trained, but most are not. Advancement coming from straight experience, i.e. the number of fights you find yourself in.

SDLeary

[RosenMcStern]

For those who consider that anyway brawling and martial arts are just a different approaches of unarmed combat, without MA bringing more efficiency, they can just forget the MA skill which becomes in this case superfluous.

I do not think you can simplify the subject so much. Once stated that a good brawler can beat a martial artist, there _IS_ a difference between the two that can make MA more efficient in some cases. Few people with street experience can kick efficiently in combat, and it is hard to deny that a kick strikes harder and farther than a punch. You may wish a more precise description of what the different styles may yeld, but a MA skill is indeed necessary, even in a realistic context. What is new in the BGB is that, like many other things, it is clearly stated that it is not necessarily a single skill. It may include boxing, karate, capoeira etc..

Note that this can also debated for weapons (and especially for archery), where 1) doubling the damage may not be very relevant and 2) weapon skills requires anyway a training learning specific techniques, inclusive optimizing the damage, and are as such martial arts. But I don't want to start a new debate!

It is not a new debate. This has been discussed before. Martial Arts techniques can be applied to a lot of weapons, if your settings permits. Personally, I allow them only for kendo and fencing (light weapons designed for high precision), and would certainly not let anyone apply them to Poleaxe, but it is justa a matter of what you allow in your campaign.

[SDLeary]

But let's go back to the subject of this thread: MA with grapple.

If we want to use MA with grapple, reducing it to double damage is not adapted anymore, since grapple is not (only) about doing damage. This was the first question. Then, what to do with MA as grappling? We need some home rules: some propose to add an action (MA can increase speed - this is a simple option, usable for any fighting skill) or to increase the effectiveness of a grappling effect (like an automatic success or some boni ?) or to add some exotic effects according to the art, etc. There are some ideas in this thread, and some more in TCE or Dragon Lines.

I would suggest the bonus route. Successful MA grapple gives a bonus to the grappler to resist their target trying to break free.

SDLeary

[Redcrow]

Karate is a martial art; as is brawling, boxing, wrestling, pankration, fencing, halberd fighting, Ecky Thump and all the other weird and wonderful traditions out there.

Is one superior to the other? Not in the real world. In the end, it all comes down to how experienced each individual is... and that is portrayed in BRP by the actual percentage value next to the skill.

This is all I was trying to say, but don't always get my point across as well as I would like.

[icebrand]

Is one superior to the other? Not in the real world. In the end, it all comes down to how experienced each individual is... and that is portrayed in BRP by the actual percentage value next to the skill.

Actually, there are "superior" (i.e: more effective) training methods than others; it is not only dependant on individuals. That's why there are dominant styles in mma. For example, boxing is superior to pretty much everything else for punching people!

[Evilschemer]

Last night, we tried out the revised rule I came up with: "Roll for the regular attack, roll again for Martial Arts. If either hit, then you do damage. If both hit, you do double damage." Straightforward enough.

The players didn't like it. They thought it was too much dice rolling. The feedback I got was that they'd prefer the original rule for Martial Arts for Brawling and Melee, and just use somethig new for Grapple.

I suggested the following for Grapple: If the die roll is a success for both Grapple and Martial Arts, the success goes up a level. Success becomes Special. Special becomes Critical. Etc. We'll see how that goes next week. Of course, grapple probably won't fit into the game much, anyway.