Bless Crops duration makes it too rare

[Kvott]

In RQG Bless crops is Duration Instant, this is changed in Red Book of Magic  to Duration Special explained in Q&A from Sea season to Earth Season. This binds one runepoint per hide of land, realeased during Earth Season.

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/cha4034-the-red-book-of-magic/cha4032-the-red-book-of-magic-qa/cha4032-red-book-of-magic-chapter-02-rune-magic-spells-qa/#ib-toc-anchor-34

A Initiate benefit for Ernalda is that the Priestess casts Bless Crops on your land. P 18. Eart cults. Mundane Benefits. This means that a Pristess must have one Runepoint per Initiate, and that that amount cannot be used for anything else for 3 seasons. A new Priestess is required to have 5 runepoints. All of those bound, or? Isnt this a lot of bound runepoints? 

I assume the binding of runepoints was done to stop "overblessing". IMO this creates overbinding of runepoints. A better way might be to say that more than one Bless Crops per Hide requires permission from...someone... or some justification...

Edited February 15 by Kvott
Better Sourcing

[French Desperate WindChild]

"too" rare is a question of taste  🙂

in my Glorantha, priests and priestesses are not here just to cast spells for everything/everyone or anything/anyone. They are here to maintain the gods pleasure and prevent any curse from them. They are here to worships the gods.

So happy are the people if the harvest is good (normal roll in sacred time) . That means the priestesses did the job. No rune pool impacted, so no, the standard blessing of Ernalda is not "too" rare. It is even "free" and almost "automatic"

Now the gods offer their priests (and initiates) some mundane powers they can use at their discretion* . And then, yest it could be rare. That's why people are happy to have priestess from their family/bloodline. To have an advantage. To have better harvest than their neighbours. Is it too rare ? No as it is a "bonus" in addition of the "natural" blessing of Ernalda.

 

That's, for me the main difference between priest rune pool and initiate rune pool.

Priests and priestesses are supported by the clan to help the clan.

A good priestess will save her runepool to solve "her" clan issue. A bad priestess will use her runepool for personal advantage.

Initiates (and pc) have not such duty, but in the other hand, the clan does not provide them a "noble" lifestyle.

 

* well, in my glorantha again, gods are able to refuse the cast of the spell.. for our Ernalda example, if a priestess cast bless crops on a hide of a tomb robber, nothing happens (no blessing). If she insists, her goddess may reduce her powers (neutral relationship), curse the priestess (bad relationship) or is visited by the goddess in her dreams (good relationship). If she doesn't understand, well the relationship may decrease. If she solves the issue (aka investigation, maybe with help of Maran or Bab's followeres) the relationship may increase.

 

[radmonger]

Ernalda has access to a 1-use spell, Restore Magic, that restores 1D6 Rune points. So most priests would be able to meet their obligation if they really needed to. Of course, the cost would be disastrous; they would need years or even decodes to fully recover.

Hence it is a vital contribution to the viability of the community that initiates do not all call on the obligation at once. Most initiates should be blessing their own crops, or perhaps farming so well they do not need magical support every year. Any advanced initiate slacking in their obligation to take on a share of the crop blessing rotation would at least face social pressure. They might end up having their lands reallocated to someone who will care for them better.

 

[Kvott]

There are many ways to address the issue. As a player of a potential Ernalda priestess, my interest is that not all her runepoints are bound. When Bless Pregnancy and Bless Crops bind runepoints for a long time, it is less fun to play a priestess. Ofc she will do what is required, but how can she defend the village when her magic is spent? Or should the Benefit of a Bless Crops be removed from Initiates of Ernalda? 

There is no limit put on Shield 3 with Extension 5. But bless crops is nerfed. I would prefer a soft rule like: Only one Bless Crops is cast per hide unless Ernalda is extremely pleased. (A good devotion Ernalda roll.) Only Bless Pregnancy on Chosen ones, or people who have special problems. Or something. 

[radmonger]

As a GM, that's no problem. Just have their mentor say:

Right now, the fields are doing fine, me and the senior initiates have things in hand. We need you to prioritize dealing with _plot_.

 

12 minutes ago, Kvott said:

There is no limit put on Shield 3 with Extension 5

I think that has been eratta'd? 

 

Edited February 16 by radmonger

[French Desperate WindChild]

i really don't understand where is the issue 🙂

3 minutes ago, Kvott said:

she will do what is required

but what is required ? maybe one sacred hide must be blessed in the clan lands. But others no, it is the priestess choice. If the priestess doesn't accept to bless the hides of the ring's favorite it is a relationship potential issue (and an interesting plot for social scenario), not a cult's duty.

the cult's duty is :

Quote

Priestesses must provide for the welfare of their community and bless them and their crops with available magic. They are subject to the commands of the local husband-deity’s priests and lords. I

there are three key words in my opinion: welfare, available and command.

- if the welfare of the community is guarantee (stocks, good weather, good seeds, etc...) no need to burn your rune pool, if the community risks or is starving, so yes, as a priest you must use your available magic to save them. If a pregnancy is dangerous, yes the priestess has to find something. But if everything is well, that's fine, no obligation to use Ernalda's power.

And those who can command you to do (aka burn your rp against your wish) are local leaders. If they abuse their power, that's another interesting plot for a social scenario. If you character dislikes these orders, maybe others dislike how the leaders use their power too. Maybe there are some political struggle to organize... Find a champion, use it as lover or husband or anything, obtain by some oracle that we are cursed, things must be changed, maybe conclusion will be an election, maybe a duel (not you, but your champion), maybe a civil conflict, maybe a split of the clan. Who knows.

22 minutes ago, Kvott said:

I would prefer a soft rule like: Only one Bless Crops is cast per hide

I m not sure that gloranthan are able to determine how many RP are used by someone else. But even if they do, it is not a question of game design (aka chaosium rules), it is a question of gloranthan characters. They have to decide what they do or don't.so if your character decides that only one rp is used per hide, it is her choice. Or if your character is not on the top of the hierachy and dislike what the leader of your character's cult decide, it is up to her (aka you player of course) to decide if she obey or not (back to the social plot point)

 

Imo, priesthood (runelord and shaman included, and in a minor way, god talker too) should be discussed between the player and the gm. What the GM expects from the player, what the player expects from the campaign.

In some cases, GM+player(s) may decide that duty are only time and income requirement. So RP use is up to the player and priest is just a "new level" of the character with new "abilities"

In some cases, GM+player(s) may decide that duty are only income and activity (part of time, part of rp) used to the "welfare" of the cult. Time then is like before you can do what you want 4 weeks per season.

In some cases, GM+player(s) may decide that the character's duty is not the "standard" priest's duty , because the pc is "special", or have "special mission". So duty is specific for this pc.

In some cases, GM+player(s) may decide that the campaign is not about looking for adventure and visiting the world, but about the clan life (sometimes with outisder/pilgrinage, etc.. but most of the scenarios take place in the tula) then there is no more rules duty -aka no more 90% income, 90% times, etc...) but cult duty. You must find a way to protect your initiates, respect the expectation of you clan, enrich your temple, obtain a place in the ring, become the (new) clan chief's (new) wife, become the clan chief without husband (I mean if you are Ernalda's priestess) or any ambitious plan you player wants your character have.

 

 

 

[Kvott]

44 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

i really don't understand where is the issue 🙂

If every Ern initiate has the benefit of Bless Crops, there are not enough Runepoints held by the priests to do that. So why does it say that in both RQG and Earth cults? 

What fun is it for a Runepriest player to bind all their runepoints 3 seasons? 

Clearly, initiates themselves can Bless their own crops. And then why is it something the priest is required to do RAW?

My question is why is the text wrong? Not how can we do something about it, which is trivial.

[radmonger]

The sentence prior to it say 'Initiates are under the protection of Ernalda's local husband'. That does not imply a guarantee that the local chief and his 20 or so thanes will defeat everything threatening such an initiate. Merely that they will be obliged to try. In doing so, they would as a minimum expect the support of the clan militia.

Note that changing the duration back wouldn't affect anything much, as planting time would be a crunch time for access to RP anyway.

 

 

 

[French Desperate WindChild]

39 minutes ago, Kvott said:

What fun is it for a Runepriest player to bind all their runepoints 3 seasons? 

For me priest should be played in « local campaign » not for « adventuring campaign »

except of course if there is a good reason to meet a priest who does what he wants without any responsibility for a community

with rqg there is no need to be priest to cast divine magic. Initiates can do this. The other benefits are less powerful so don’t understand where is the trouble. Playing a priest should be to play a priest not to get minor benefit and staying the same character

45 minutes ago, Kvott said:

. And then why is it something the priest is required to do RAW

Again RAW don’t say that an Ernaldan priestess must use her rune pool to bless crops for everyone at her maximum

( I may be wrong but I don’t see it anywhere)

48 minutes ago, Kvott said:

Clearly, initiates themselves can Bless their own crops

And some do. And probably priestesses will answer if initiates know the spell « why do you ask me to do what you are able to do yourself ? »

 

50 minutes ago, Kvott said:

My question is why is the text wrong?

And my answer is the text I read doesn’t say you must cast all you rp for three seasons.
However the text says that priest must spend 90% of their time in the temple. there is for me the issue for those who want to play a priest without temple duties (aka adventurers) and without good reasons (reasons from a glorantha perspective, so my point about gm and player agreement)

 

[Kvott]

20 minutes ago, radmonger said:

Note that changing the duration back wouldn't affect anything much, as planting time would be a crunch time for access to RP anyway.

A priestess with 10 runepoints will get back about 50 runepoints during Sea season, if they are all spent and not bound, during Minor holidays and Seasonal High holy days. The difference due to duration is thus between 50 Bless Crops and 10. If a player min max this and puts 10 Bless Crops on 5 hides there is a very big yield from these 5 hides. This is bad. The upside is that the priestess can use magic for other things. If they are bound she can Bless 10 hides once and get her points back in earth season. No other magic. How fun is that? 

Better to limit Bless Crops to one per plot. A fair use of Ernaldas power. Not abuse. 

[Kvott]

15 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Again RAW don’t say that an Ernaldan priestess must use her rune pool to bless crops for everyone at her maximum

Hmmm... perhaps this means that... 

"Mundane Benefits

Initiates of Ernalda are under the protection of Ernalda’s local husband. The local priestess will cast Bless Crops upon their lands." Pagw 18 Earth cults

... that the priestess Blesses the husbands crops... hmmm. "Their" should refer to plural initiates.

Anyhow. If there is a battle the priestesses are there with healing etc. But not without rp. 

[French Desperate WindChild]

2 hours ago, Kvott said:

Hmmm... perhaps this means that... 

"Mundane Benefits

Initiates of Ernalda are under the protection of Ernalda’s local husband. The local priestess will cast Bless Crops upon their lands." Pagw 18 Earth cults

... that the priestess Blesses the husbands crops... hmmm. "Their" should refer to plural initiates.

Anyhow. If there is a battle the priestesses are there with healing etc. But not without rp. 

well if you want to play a priestess see what are the duties of a priestess by raw 🙂

there is even no requirement to know bless crops to be a priestess.

here you report the benefits of initiates which is not exactly the same thing.

 

so for playing a character I don't see any issue. If now the question is more about how "stable" is the world build, it is clear there are some points to discuss, but is it really important for a role playing game rules ?

[Kvott]

15 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

so for playing a character I don't see any issue. If now the question is more about how "stable" is the world build, it is clear there are some points to discuss, but is it really important for a role playing game rules ?

Well... here I hoped to get support for MY IMPORTANT issues. 🙂 It is not a big issue, but the rules should support fun play. The benefit you get from a Bless Crops is a fifth of the time you turn a failed 40 L income to 80L. 1/5 * 40 = 8L Special chance increase gives 2 L more. Net effect 10L. A priestess binding 10 runepoints for 3 seasons will thus earn the tribe 100 L. A year when there is bad harvest, it is perhaps a better choice to go adventuring and leave the Bless Crops to initiates. To be able to use Heal Wound and Shield in one fight to defend the village will be perhaps be worth more. And in a sudden war are all points tied up... 

[Malin]

This looks very much like a classic case of specifying too much in the source material (the Earth Cult book).

Quote

Mundane Benefits: Initiates of Ernalda are under the protection of Ernalda’s local husband. The local priestess will cast Bless Crops upon their lands.

The vagueness of the first statement (being under the protection) works fine, because it is up to everyone in game exactly what that means and how it applies, while the super specificness of the second one in describing a game action "cast Bless Crops" rather than something equally general like "The local priestess will ensure Ernalda's blessing are upon their lands" where the exact nature of this could be worked out in game. 

It might be an artifact from before the Bless Crops/Pregnancy rules were clarified, but even then, it is uncertain whether it would work. How many hides belong to the village the priestess and her assistant are responsible for? Ten? A hundred? The number of runepoints becomes unfeasible fast, even with assistants.

One way of dealing with this which I don't think is explicitly against the rules (correct me if I am wrong) would be to have the local priestess lead the blessing of the fields, just as is described in many more local volumes (the fertility stones in sun county etc) and cast the Bless Crop spell in cooperation with the owner of the fields. The Priestess (or one of her assistants) hold the knowledge, but the rune points are supplied by the people who will actually be working the fields. Just like many people can help with enchanting items and other larger ceremonies. I feel that way, the rules could stand as written, without the priestess having to lock up her own rune points. And the family members could sacrifice a rune point per hide, which would not be too heavy a burden if spread among several people.

Edited February 17 by Malin

[Kvott]

11 minutes ago, Malin said:

This looks very much like a classic case of specifying too much in the source material (the Earth Cult book).

Quote

Mundane Benefits: Initiates of Ernalda are under the protection of Ernalda’s local husband. The local priestess will cast Bless Crops upon their lands.

The vagueness of the first statement (being under the protection) works fine, because it is up to everyone in game exactly what that means and how it applies, while the super specificness of the second one in describing a game action "cast Bless Crops" rather than something equally general like "The local priestess will ensure Ernalda's blessing are upon their lands" where the exact nature of this could be worked out in game. 

It might be an artifact from before the Bless Crops/Pregnancy rules were clarified, but even then, it is uncertain whether it would work. How many hides belong to the village the priestess and her assistant are responsible for? Ten? A hundred? The number of runepoints becomes unfeasible fast, even with assistants.

One way of dealing with this which I don't think is explicitly against the rules (correct me if I am wrong) would be to have the local priestess lead the blessing of the fields, just as is described in many more local volumes (the fertility stones in sun county etc) and cast the Bless Crop spell in cooperation with the owner of the fields. The Priestess (or one of her assistants) hold the knowledge, but the rune points are supplied by the people who will actually be working the fields. Just like many people can help with enchanting items and other larger ceremonies. I feel that way, the rules could stand as written, without the priestess having to lock up her own rune points. And the family members could sacrifice a rune point per hide, which would not be too heavy a burden if spread among several people.

I like this. I think that the priestess should be out blessing every field, and support the ritual to make it solid aka Bless Crops cast by the Initiate. 

[Scotty]

On 2/16/2024 at 11:05 AM, radmonger said:

Ernalda has access to a 1-use spell, Restore Magic, that restores 1D6 Rune points. So most priests would be able to meet their obligation if they really needed to. Of course, the cost would be disastrous; they would need years or even decodes to fully recover.

This is only available to Asrelia as an associated cult of Gata (EG 48), and to Palmalt as an associated cult of Yanmorla (EG 122). While Ernalda is an associade cult of Gata, she gains Gnome to Gargoyle (EG 21). As usual GMs are free to ignore this.

[Scotty]

On 2/15/2024 at 10:12 PM, Kvott said:

This binds one rune point per hide of land, released during Earth Season.

It's not binding, it's recovery of the Rune points. Binding is something else in game terms.

On 2/15/2024 at 10:12 PM, Kvott said:

A Initiate benefit for Ernalda is that the Priestess casts Bless Crops on your land. P 18. Eart cults. Mundane Benefits. This means that a Pristess must have one Runepoint per Initiate, and that that amount cannot be used for anything else for 3 seasons.

It means they can if they have the Rune points and spell available. They might not even have the spell (Ernalda has over 16 special spells, 8 or so enchantments, 13 or so associate spells and one from the husband protector). The initiate must give an offering (pay to have the spell cast), at 20 L per Rune point (a cow).

On 2/15/2024 at 10:12 PM, Kvott said:

A new Priestess is required to have 5 runepoints.

Yes, but it doesn't specify the spells, and so doesn't need to include Bless Crops.

On 2/15/2024 at 10:12 PM, Kvott said:

All of those bound, or? Isnt this a lot of bound runepoints? 

No. With the limit on Rune points being CHA, most ancient priestess are only likely to have 18 Rune points (rarely up to 21). Those that can cast Bless Crops are likely to be selective. In a roleplay situation that likely comes down to who is the most worthy (supports the temple most).

In my game, the Ernalda merchant banks his goods with Earth temple and gives them offerings from it as usual as usual (per W&E 8, which works out to be about 60L ) which, with this as an augment he gets priority for a Bless Crops on the Thane of Apple lane's orchard in the centre of the Hamlet (and the wyter in the apple tree). It gives the thane +20% on his manage household for 1 of his 5 hides.

On 2/15/2024 at 10:12 PM, Kvott said:

I assume the binding of runepoints was done to stop "overblessing". IMO this creates overbinding of runepoints. A better way might be to say that more than one Bless Crops per Hide requires permission from...someone... or some justification...

Recovery of Bless crops rune points is limited to stop the use seasonal recovery allowing more points to be spent on Bless crops. If you plant in Sea season, then the crop ripens in Fire season and is harvested in Earth Season, you likely recover the points in Earth season.

Remember the benefits of having the spell cast is +20% to the occupational skill rating for that hide (so either farm or manage household). It does not add to the Harvest roll, then per point stacked, +1 hide or an extra 20% to the occupational skill rating.

The spell is pretty much no use to those who do not directly farm or manage their own land. 

In my game this manifests as the priestess leading a blessing to the orchards on Apple day, the whole ceremony takes a few hours as she gives Ernalda's blessing to all the trees, with the farmers, village folk, dogs and children. In game terms, she only casts Bless Crops on one hide of the thanes trees. Without the merchant's help, no spell would be cast, but it would still be a great ceremony and celebration. Next year the merchant is going to get the priestess to cast Bear Fruit in Sared Time as well.

Practically, an Ernaldan priestess will bless all the fields of her village on a holy day ceremony. Practically it will mean just a few actual castings (if any) of Bless crops.

[Bohemond]

I think what this discussion is missing is that Bless Crops is available to initiates, not merely priestesses. If the average (85%) woman on a tula is an Ernaldan, that means the initiates do most of the field-blessing and the priestess only gets involved when there’s particular land that might need extra help for some reason. Or perhaps she blesses the hide of land set aside specifically for cult purposes. Or perhaps her casting happens alongside theirs and helps boost it (although that’s not how the rules work). 

Edited February 18 by Bohemond

[Kvott]

I thought the priestess blessed all lands of Ernaldans and Orlanthi and this was what the weekly cermony was for. A fertility rite to help the clan supported by the magic of the godess. The weekly holidays was important for the renewal of the connection, the runepoints. 

I like it less that the rituals are for the occasional runepoint used for heal wound.  The initiates bless their land on their own. 

My Ernalda initiate will spend her magic on the runespell Brew, until that is bound too. She is not Bitter, its just the beer. 🙂

[soltakss]

On 2/15/2024 at 10:12 PM, Kvott said:

In RQG Bless crops is Duration Instant, this is changed in Red Book of Magic  to Duration Special explained in Q&A from Sea season to Earth Season. This binds one runepoint per hide of land, realeased during Earth Season.

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/home/catalogue/publishers/chaosium/cha4034-the-red-book-of-magic/cha4032-the-red-book-of-magic-qa/cha4032-red-book-of-magic-chapter-02-rune-magic-spells-qa/#ib-toc-anchor-34

A Initiate benefit for Ernalda is that the Priestess casts Bless Crops on your land. P 18. Eart cults. Mundane Benefits. This means that a Pristess must have one Runepoint per Initiate, and that that amount cannot be used for anything else for 3 seasons. A new Priestess is required to have 5 runepoints. All of those bound, or? Isnt this a lot of bound runepoints? 

I assume the binding of runepoints was done to stop "overblessing". IMO this creates overbinding of runepoints. A better way might be to say that more than one Bless Crops per Hide requires permission from...someone... or some justification...

My take on this is that Bless Crops is not only available to Priestesses, as it is one of the spells available to Initiates. For me, Initiates are responsible for casting Bless Crops on their Hides. An Ernaldan Initiate on a small stead with 1 Hide has a responsibility to cast Bless Crops to support the hide. Larger steads have more hides and these can be supported by an initiate with more Rune Points, or by multiple Initiates. Sure, it means that those Initiates cannot regain their Rune Points until after the harvest but that is a small price to pay.

The spell specifically allow more points to be used to give a stronger effect, so I am not sure why you would want to prevent that. A starting Initiate with 3 Rune Points can cast Bless Crops of 3 Hides to give a +20 to the occupational skill rating, or can cast the spell on 2 hides with a +40 to the occupational skill, or on 1 hide to give a +60 to the occupational skill.

What this effectively does is to make the Initiate's job to provide Bless Crops for their hides. Some stead might have several such Initiates, especially if they have large families with multiple Ernaldan initiates.

 

[Kvott]

I thank ppl here for the comments. My take is that Bless Crops will not be in the arsenal of the young, 3 weeks per season adventuring, would be priestess. It is for the old stationary priestess with 18 runepoints, and not much to do with half of them.

The blessing of crops is a roleplaying moment for pc:s. Not an simulation game mechanic. Rune spells will for now focus on more action oriented things. 

[PhilHibbs]

I think the “priestess will cast Bless Crops” is a world building thing that wasn’t really thought through properly.

[Joerg]

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I think the “priestess will cast Bless Crops” is a world building thing that wasn’t really thought through properly.

As the designers like to insist, RuneQuest: Roleplaying in Glorantha is not meant to be SimGlorantha.