Horse archery

[Zit]

I’m looking for a detailed rule for horse archery.

It seems to me that horse archery is more than just putting a foot archer on a horse. It requires at least a specific training of both the horse and the archer. I believe, but I’m far away from being a specialist in the question, that without this specific training, it is not possible to use a bow and gallop at all. Therefore, simply applying the rules like firing while moving or mounted combat (which looks like more made for melee combat) seems not realy satisfying.

I had some ideas regarding 1/ how to simulate this training and 2/ which effect it may have, but any help is welcome:

1. Considering that horse archery is a specific skill, we can either describe it as a cultural trait, e.g. the Mongol riding art includes riding without the hands in order to use a bow, an urga or a lasso OR create a new skill “mounted archery”, as a stand-alone skill or a martial art related to riding and bow. Of course, a properly trained horse is anyway required

2. What would bring “mounted archery”? The restrictive rule could be that it allows shooting while riding after the “shooting while moving" rule: failing in this skill (or not having this trait) prevents from shooting while riding at all. The “liberal” rule would be to allow anybody to use a bow on horseback as per the rules but to cancel or reduce the penalties for those who know mounted archery

I’m tending to the martial art + restrictive rule, but I’m not completely sure. Does anybody have an idea on the question?

[KingSkin]

Historically it just took knowing the secret and practicing it, a lot. To represent that aspect I'd make it an Archery roll with a -30% difficulty but only allow characters with both Archery and Ride at something like 65% - 75% minimum to attempt it.

I don't even think the horse has to be specifically trained for it. As long as they can gallop in a straight line, when they hit the right speed their gait changes so they start leaving the ground completey. At that point you're not getting bounced around so you can aim and fire while the horse sort of sails through the air. It just provides a more stable platform than when you're getting bounced around which is the key to it.

You could restrict it's use to a particular culture though as it takes a lot to learn and a French knight would get laughed out of court if he was seen trying it. Mainly because he'd miss with the first few thousand arrows he fired and also fall off a lot which can be bloody dangerous as well as embarrasing.

For the less realistic option you could make it a separate skill only available to students of a particular martial arts school.

As to using it, they have to be galloping or they have no chance of success which can limit its utility in a lot of gaming situations.

If someone tries it without having high enough skills or while simply cantering along I'd make it a straight 01% chance of success. Although my players point out I'm a right bastard sometimes so you'll probably want to tailor the above for your own campaign/GMing style.

Oh, and I think stirrups also need to have been invented because I think a key component is standing up in them but I may be wrong on that score.

[SDLeary]

Kushkile Archery, or some such. IIRC, its from the RQ2 days, designed for the Pentan's and Praxian's. Basically your archer skill on horseback is limited by, and does not exceed, your Ride skill. I'll go thru the reprints if I get a chance and see if I can find it in detail.

SDLeary

OK, found it. The normal way for archery from horseback was as described above. Kuschile Archery is a skill that allows the rider to use their full archery skill from horseback, regardless of riding skill. It doesn't state though if this is skill is rolled once per combat, or once prior to each use of the bow. Cult Compendium, Yelorna, p.126.

SDLeary

Edited November 9, 2011 by SDLeary

[Zit]

I never really understand the interest of the Kuschile archery as it was. In old RQ, the only limitation to mounted combat is the riding skill. A good rider is therefore rarely limited by it (any mounted barbarian starts with 80%) and if, he just have to increase his riding skill and does not need any extra skill. And Kuschile archery involves an extra die roll.

According to what I've read on a forum about horse archers, a horse still have to be trained, or at least used to the sight and sounds of the bow and arrows, to the riding position and so forth… For a combat trained cavalry horse, this may be considered as a part of its training if mounted archery is commonly used.

Scythes (and Huns?) were horse archers without stirrups. We may be just forbid them to shoot backward.

I’d like to use the existing mechanisms as much as possible instead of introducing more penalties or extra rules.

It looks like:

- Horse archery makes sense at gallop only

- Still not sure if I make it a cultural feature or a martial skill starting at 01% -or more for horse nomads. As martial art, it could be learn in some cultures, otherwise only through experience. Shall be anyway limited to good riders, which is a kind of restrictive application of the ride skill p.75. Let’s keep the 50% threshold in order to simplify.

- Apply the shooting when moving and the mounted combat rules anyway

Case 1, cultural trait: I’m a Turk, I know bow and riding at >50%, I can use my bow on horseback while galloping.

I’m a French Knight despising the bow, I can’t (and I anyway don’t want to) use a bow on horseback, and I never will. I don’t even have a bow, Montjoie Saint Denis! Welsh bowmen are unfair but fortunately do not ride. They can’t use mounted archery either.

Case 2, martial art: I’m a Turk, I know bow and riding at >50% and horse archery at 20%. I can use my bow while galloping and succeed if I roll the 1d100 under both my bow and horse archery.

I am a standard adventurer, I’m pursued by Trolls on huge Spiders and want to use my bow on my horse while fleeing. I fortunately know bow and riding at >50% but I never did it before and have only 01% chance to succeed. If I miraculously make it, I will have a chance to increase it through an experience roll only. One of my fellows is a good rider but knows bow at<50% only, and another one is a good archer but a bad rider (<50%): they can’t try to shoot while gallopingat at all.

Does any of these cases make sense?

[KingSkin]

Case 2 makes sense to me, a more elegant way of doing than my earlier suggestion. With regards to the horse training aspect, I think they only need to be trained for combat in general (i.e so they don't get panicked by the smell of blood or shy away from heavily armed bastards charging towards them) rather than specifically to act as an archery platform.

[HierophantX]

What about throwing javelins while mounted? Much of that was done in the ancient world without stirrups. Perhaps rather than disallowing "parthian shots" a penalty, either 20% or perhaps a skill ceiling for mounted archery/javelin without stirrups. I think I would favor the ceiling myself.

[Narl]

If you are going into a lot of detail on this, be sure and only allow short bows from horseback. Longbows don't work out so well for obvious reasons.

[Heimdallsgothi]

Horse archery was generally a short recurve bow... and fairly light compared to foot archery. Welsh longbows often exceeded 150lb draw. Rate of fire is lower vs foot archery as well, which is why mounted archers avoided foot archer units, less range an lower rate of fire while being a bigger easier to hit target. Falling from a horse at full gallop hurts

[Zit]

If you are going into a lot of detail on this, be sure and only allow short bows from horseback. Longbows don't work out so well for obvious reasons.

Right. However, Japanese bows are quite long but asymmetrical. Are these bows as hard and efficient as longbows?

What about throwing javelins while mounted? Much of that was done in the ancient world without stirrups. Perhaps rather than disallowing "parthian shots" a penalty, either 20% or perhaps a skill ceiling for mounted archery/javelin without stirrups. I think I would favor the ceiling myself.

Right, Parthians did not have stirrups. May be make it "difficult" without stirrups.

Rate of fire is lower vs foot archery as well, which is why mounted archers avoided foot archer units, less range an lower rate of fire

Mmmh, but composite bows are given the longest range in the rules. Witnesses pointed out the very long range these bows were able to shoot at, although at these times the long bow hadn’t been invented (and may be not while galloping?).

Composite bows had indeed different settings and I’ve read that a setting for shooting on foot allowed a longer range.

What are the characteristics of the composite bow in the rules for? A foot archer with a long range setting? A bow on horseback? The maximum range with special arrows and wrist guide?

Another point about ranges: the BGB states somewhere that the easy range is DEX/3. However, up to 30m is very easy for a middle-skilled archer, according to a -modern- archer I asked. Well, we’re far away from the DEX/3. We should have at least DEXx2, don’t we?

[soltakss]

I'm helping with some rules on nomads and they have Horse Acrobatics and Horse Archery to simulate the funky things that can be done on horseback.

Shooting from a moving horse is difficult because it is bumpy and wobbly and moves around a bit. Horse archers know how to counter this with stance and grip. Even a good archer with a shortbow will have difficulty shooting from a moving horse because it is not what they are used to.

What I would do, for simplicity, is to have a Horse Archery ability that allows the user his full bow skill when riding a horse.

Other people would be limited to the minimum of their ride and bow skills and could well incur other penalties for shooting while riding, perhaps needing a Ride roll to stay in control of their beasts.

Unless using specialist horse bows (nomad composite bows, Japanese recurved bows, small crossbows) there should be a penalty for using bows from horseback if not trained.

This should apply to any weapon, from crossbows to lassoos to bolas to javelins. If you don't have Horse Archery then you are penalised when shooting while riding.

Of course, the name might be changed to suit the genre. Cowboys wouldn't have Horse Archery, but could lasso and shoot pistols from horseback. Post-apocalyptic youths on BMXes could shoot their catapults while riding away from enemies. Blue-skinned, giant aliens could use javelins from the backs of flying reptiles.

[Zit]

with "ability", you mean a kind of "you can it or you can't at all", like a cultural trait in -my case #1 above- instead of a skill with rating? Or a kind of martial art/power as in The Celestial Empire?

[HierophantX]

Simon,

Does this "Mounted Archery" skill then replace the "Bow" or "Javelin" skills for combat purposes? Does that mean I'm only a good archer when I'm on a horse but crap when afoot? Otherwise what's the point of the skill? It's not a D20 Feat, how do you envision the mechanic working?

[Heimdallsgothi]

Well consider that a well trained welsh archer unit could have 5 arrows in the air, with the 6th ready to fire when the first arrow landed

For bow types, really, the shape doesn't matter. Bows are human powered weapons, all Compound/Recurve bows do is give you a higher draw weight in a smaller bow

I can tell you no Hun archer fired a 120lb draw bow from horseback

Heres a couple videos that help explains it

[Zit]

Interesting. Look at that.:

[Heimdallsgothi]

Only difference is He's using a 20 lb bow.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Heimdallsgothi

[soltakss]

Simon,

Does this "Mounted Archery" skill then replace the "Bow" or "Javelin" skills for combat purposes? Does that mean I'm only a good archer when I'm on a horse but crap when afoot? Otherwise what's the point of the skill? It's not a D20 Feat, how do you envision the mechanic working?

with "ability", you mean a kind of "you can it or you can't at all", like a cultural trait in -my case #1 above- instead of a skill with rating? Or a kind of martial art/power as in The Celestial Empire?

The way I would do it? Have a Mounted Archery ability which means you can use your bow skill without any penalties while galloping on horseback.

It wouldn't be a general trait, so not all Mongols would have it, but would be something that a Mongol PC/NPC could be expected to have.

Mongoose RQ has something similar, I believe.

However, I am not particularly interested, in my games, in simulating exactly how things work. BRP is gritty enough for me without adding extra layers of grit. SO, a horseman who can use his bow skill as easily on horseback as on foot is fine for my purposes.

[Zit]

I agree with you in principle, Simon. Good sense is actually the best rule. That's the reason why I'm trying to make it as simple as possible (as Saint Exupéry said: the perfection is when there is nothing left to remove).

But a setting about nomads where riding an bow are a central cultural feature deserves a little more details than in the rules. Of course everybody is free to simply ignore all these specific rules, but they are here to flavour a steppe campaign.

Well, I thought also about a simple idea in principle: horse archery skill rating = bow x ride.

Ex: 60% bow and 60% ride makes 0.6 x 0.6 = 0,36 or 36% basic chance of horse archery. Then apply any relevant bonus/penalties directly on this skill in order to avoid recomputing during play. It increases together with bow and ride. Or is there anywhere a good rule for combined skills?

[vagabond]

I agree with you in principle, Simon. Good sense is actually the best rule. That's the reason why I'm trying to make it as simple as possible (as Saint Exupéry said: the perfection is when there is nothing left to remove).

But a setting about nomads where riding an bow are a central cultural feature deserves a little more details than in the rules. Of course everybody is free to simply ignore all these specific rules, but they are here to flavour a steppe campaign.

Well, I thought also about a simple idea in principle: horse archery skill rating = bow x ride.

Ex: 60% bow and 60% ride makes 0.6 x 0.6 = 0,36 or 36% basic chance of horse archery. Then apply any relevant bonus/penalties directly on this skill in order to avoid recomputing during play. It increases together with bow and ride. Or is there anywhere a good rule for combined skills?

Not bad, but really, too much math. I would just say that an archer on horseback would use the lesser of their Ride and Bow skills. That way, an experienced foot archer (70%) with a low ride skill (20%) would be much better at using their bow on foot (full 70%), but abysmal if he tried to use their bow on horseback (hindered by the 20% ride, so their bow is limited to 20%). But, an experienced nomad would have 65% in both, and thus shoot their bow at 65%.

Ian

[Zit]

Thanks everybody for your remarks and suggestions.

[vagabond]

Not bad, but really, too much math. I would just say that an archer on horseback would use the lesser of their Ride and Bow skills. That way, an experienced foot archer (70%) with a low ride skill (20%) would be much better at using their bow on foot (full 70%), but abysmal if he tried to use their bow on horseback (hindered by the 20% ride, so their bow is limited to 20%). But, an experienced nomad would have 65% in both, and thus shoot their bow at 65%.

Ian

Oh, and to make this a "cultural" skill, you can give bonus skill points at character creation to both ride and bow to reflect that culture's use of horseback archery.

I also like this more simplistic approach because it is easily extended to any kind of mounted combat - riding an animal or driving a car, and bows, swords, firearms, etc.

And you can still apply any specific modifiers based upon conditions - extremely rough terrain might incur a 25% penalty to ride normally, and could therefore also apply to the rider's bow skill as well.

Ian

Edited November 12, 2011 by vagabond

[Zit]

After reflexion, the rules are actualy a mix of both (ride skill, p. 75):

- when ride or combat is bellow 50%, you have to make both ride and combat rolls in order to succeed, which is statistically the same as [bow x ride] (without math;), but with one extra roll)

- when ride and combat are 50%+, "use the lower of the two skill rating"

This however does not describes the specific training or experience you need for horse archery. If you ask a good archer who's also a good rider to shoot from horseback while galloping while he never did it before, he wil be in trouble. A Nomad used to hunt and fight on horseback may be a worst foot archer but will certainly better know how to shoot from horseback. This is what I'd like to simulate, and make a true difference between peoples with a horse archery tradition and others. It is therefore necessary to separate horse archery from the raw bow skill, hence my first idea of a martial art. Unlike Kushike Archery, it has to bring a true advantage. I think Simon's proposal of a separate skill which ignores penalties is actually the best.

[vagabond]

After reflexion, the rules are actualy a mix of both (ride skill, p. 75):

- when ride or combat is bellow 50%, you have to make both ride and combat rolls in order to succeed, which is statistically the same as [bow x ride] (without math;), but with one extra roll)

- when ride and combat are 50%+, "use the lower of the two skill rating"

This however does not describes the specific training or experience you need for horse archery. If you ask a good archer who's also a good rider to shoot from horseback while galloping while he never did it before, he wil be in trouble. A Nomad used to hunt and fight on horseback may be a worst foot archer but will certainly better know how to shoot from horseback. This is what I'd like to simulate, and make a true difference between peoples with a horse archery tradition and others. It is therefore necessary to separate horse archery from the raw bow skill, hence my first idea of a martial art. Unlike Kushike Archery, it has to bring a true advantage. I think Simon's proposal of a separate skill which ignores penalties is actually the best.

If you create a separate skill, then you have to ensure that skill is never higher than both ride and bow. Otherwise it makes no sense since you would have someone who is OK at riding (50%), and OK at archery on foot (50%), but excels at shooting the bow while riding ( new skill at 75%).

Ian

[Narl]

For bow types, really, the shape doesn't matter. Bows are human powered weapons, all Compound/Recurve bows do is give you a higher draw weight in a smaller bow

I can tell you no Hun archer fired a 120lb draw bow from horseback

Heres a couple videos that help explains it

The guy in the video really doesn't understand bow design. And compound, composite, and recurve bows have significant advantages in terms of efficiency that have nothing to do with size or draw weight.

If you put any reflex in a bow's limbs (making it recurved to any degree), it will result in more efficiency and therefore higher arrow speed. If you take a 64" longbow (with no reflex in the limbs) that is 50 pounds at 28" draw vs. a 64" recurved bow that is 50 pounds at 28" draw, the recurved bow will impart more energy to the arrow, resulting in greater speed. English archers did figure this out on their own at some point and some archers would put a bit of reflex on their otherwise straight bows.

Higher arrow speed, or a heavier arrow at the same speed, means more penetration and more "damage".

Material matters too. Lighter limbs or a material that recovers faster (carbon in modern bows) results in more efficiency. If you build a bow out of a lousy bow wood and one out of yew, the yew bow is going to shoot further and faster, even if they are both the same draw weight.

So you can have a more efficient or damaging bow at the same draw weight. Design and material do matter.

Edited November 13, 2011 by Narl

[dragonewt]

How about this for a less complex solution:

Skill: Horse (Mounted) Archery - Does not work as a standard skill, however it represents the ability to account and time for movement and motion of the mount. Therefore, it is used to counter any penalties imposed on the normal Archery skill which result from firing while mounted.

This could be expanded to offset penalties for dodging and similar skills that are used when mounted.

Another variation might be: Sea Legs

[soltakss]

Well, I thought also about a simple idea in principle: horse archery skill rating = bow x ride.

Ex: 60% bow and 60% ride makes 0.6 x 0.6 = 0,36 or 36% basic chance of horse archery. Then apply any relevant bonus/penalties directly on this skill in order to avoid recomputing during play. It increases together with bow and ride. Or is there anywhere a good rule for combined skills?

The trouble with Bow x Ride is that someone with more than 100% Ride is better at shooting on horseback than when not on horseback. In magical campaigns, there may well be spells or abilities that improve Ride, for example.