2011 BRP Reviews/2012 BRP speculations?

[Mankcam]

I'ld certainly go for a Sci-Fi 'toolkit' but I think a Sci-Fi setting would sell better, look at Eclipse Phase, very much a setting specific transhuman sci-fi. Having said that, I'ld like the see supplements that provide various setting 'builds', such as Fantasy (High, Low, Gritty, Sword n Sorcery, Mythic, Historical), Adventure (Vicoriana, Pulp 1920s thru to the 1950s. Perhaps including Steampunk, Weird Science, Atomic Age Pulp Science, etc), Espionage (Realistic, Pulp/Action), Horror (Thriller, Psychological, Mystery), and Sci-Fi (Pulp, Plausible, Cyber-Transhuman, etc). I'ld love these on my wish list, but won't hold my breath!

Well whether box sets are the thing or not, the way forward is with a more catchy name for the system (another plug for the title 'Worlds of Wonder') and with more evocative and aesthetically pleasing products. The system needs to stand ground with the heavy weights such as Pathfinder, D&D, WW Storyteller, Warhammer, Savage Worlds, The One Ring, Eclipse Phase, Shadowrun, etc all of whom have excellent production standards.

Members of this forum are more than likely to be agreeable for less as we love the BRP system, and probably are looking more for content. Considering some of us have been gaming since the days of boxes and flimsy paper covers, most things in a book make us happy, especially if it has a hard cover. New fans to the hobby will likely look at the shelves to see the above listed systems with great artwork and production, and that's where their copper coins will end up.

So, if it ain't a pdf, it's got to have very good aesthetics to compete in the market these days. An unfortunate reality.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Mankcam

[Guest Vile Traveller]

BRP does historical, fantasy, modern, horror and supers perfectly well as-is. I think the biggest genre break-point for BRP would be a generic SF toolkit as rust describes - basically, a BRP version of GURPS Space, which I believe has always been a big seller for SJ. That would open up a whole universe of potential for further settings. Mind you, it would be a mammoth undertaking, especially in terms of research.

[Mankcam]

*

Edited January 9, 2012 by Mankcam

[Mankcam]

BRP does historical, fantasy, modern, horror and supers perfectly well as-is.

The BGB has ideas on how to cover these in its appendix, but I'ld like to see more focus here. Probably not so much for myself or experienced GMs, but for new GMs who are a little daunted by having to tinker with things. The Gen Y crowd tend to like immediate gratification, so pre-made setting builds may appeal to the less experienced of this crowd (No insult intended to the under 25s reading this post)

I think the biggest genre break-point for BRP would be a generic SF toolkit as rust describes - basically, a BRP version of GURPS Space, which I believe has always been a big seller for SJ. That would open up a whole universe of potential for further settings. Mind you, it would be a mammoth undertaking, especially in terms of research.

It sure would be.

I'ld eagerly grab it, but for it to reach a wider audience it would have to have lots of great artwork, some of it full-colour, and something to give it an edge over games like Eclipse Phase, Shadowrun, and even Traveller.

I guess it boils down to money in the end

Edited January 9, 2012 by Mankcam

[Guest Vile Traveller]

I disagree to some extent. A toolkit-style SF-BRP might not need the flashy full-colour art, because much of its competition (GURPS and Traveller, specifically) makes do with black & white. As long as the rules make sense, the science is as good as it can be, and the world/ship/gear-building systems are not overly complex I think gearheads are generally content with less emphasis on pretty pictures.

A WoW book as a younger-generation-attention-grabber, however, most certainly would benefit from high production values.

[rust]

While the GURPS Space hardcover and PDF have colour artwork, the GURPS Spaceships series

is available only as PDFs in black and white, so both approaches seem possible. I think that a

BRP Science Fiction toolkit could perhaps be published first as a PDF monograph and later, af-

ter an evaluation of its sales potential (and after the first errata have been made), perhaps al-

so as a hardback with black and white or even colour art. To produce such a supplement would

certainly require a lot of effort, although some of the material from Worlds of Wonder as well

as from the Ringworld RPG could be used for it. Anyway, I will certainly not hold my breath, I

very much doubt that Chaosium will produce anything of that kind.

[seneschal]

Futureworld bypassed the whole starship thing by enabling adventurers to go direct from world to world, like the characters on Stargate or Sliders.

But given an enthusiastic, competent author, why wouldn't Chaosium want to expand their horizons? They've already done some sci-fi monographs such as Outpost 19, Cthulhu Rising, and Project Ulysses. Pick one, flesh out the universe, and run with it.

[Loki]

I would like to argue a point. If BRP does pursue the sci-fi setting, then it must have quality artwork. It must sell and earn a profit. To do this, it must catch the eye of as many people as possible. Aesthetics seem to be a point we are dancing around. Would the addition need to have the best artwork imaginable? Nope. Can BRP get away with the mindset of, "Well...this is what others have gotten away with." Nope. It must follow the tried and true law of mankind, the sexy red dress gets the attention. I know I would buy it no matter what the cover, but younger generations need that stimulus. They need the eye candy. BRP would do well to add dynamic and energetic artwork; everything from heroic space heroes to gritty mercs to idealistic, bright-eyed, hope filled explorers with brand new shiny equipment. Of course, I could be wrong.

[rust]

... but younger generations need that stimulus. They need the eye candy.

Hmmm ... I am not so sure. While nice art is certainly no mistake, I do not see any

direct relation between "eye candy" and sales - there are quite a few games which

sell very well despite an almost complete lack of "eye candy", just think of Mongoo-

se Traveller's black covers. When the huge majority of games uses "bling" to catch

the eyes of potential customers, the one that stands out is the one which has no

such "bling" - when everyone wears a sexy red dress, the one girl in the plain black

dress catches the eye.

[Mankcam]

...the sexy red dress gets the attention.

This is a law of nature. Integrity and content keep one's interest, but to grab it in the first place, a nice little mini-skirt always wins out!

That aside, in regards to 'Traveller' and it's simplistic black covers, I think it's very nostalgic of the covers they produced in the late 70s/early 80s, and given the history of the game that's probably the strength it sells on. I'm not so sure if it was released under another name if those little black books would sell as well. New systems need to catch one's eye - now BRP is certainly not a new system, but BRP Sci-Fi would be regarded as new and I think it would need to make a grand entrance for it to compete and profit on today's market.

Having said that, however, 'Legend' is selling well in a 'little black book' format similar to Traveller, although I think interest was primarily raised on Drivethru RPG with the pdf selling price of $1 USD. I'm not sure if dead-tree sales have sold as well, but there is bound to be a flow-on effect.

Actually the physical size of the rulebook may have something to do with things as well. Legend is pretty much the same content as MRQ2 core rules, yet somehow feels more 'rules-lite' when reading through the printed book. Obviously it is no more rules-lite that MRQ2 was, but for some reason it feels simpler.This is primarily due to the artwork, internal text, and the size of the book itself. These rules may now appeal to GMS who runs rules-lite games like Storyteller or Savage Worlds, rather than those who have rule sets from perceived old-school tomes. So artwork isn't the only component involved in aesthetics.

Anyway, just food for thought.

Edited January 9, 2012 by Mankcam

[TrippyHippy]

BRP Sci Fi would be a good idea, if done in the GURPS Space mould. There was some talk about doing a 'Classic Scifi' book in the mould of Traveller, but the two systems are really quite different in approach at their heart and not really that compatable. I also note that there has been some work on BRP Star Wars, but that'll never happen as Fantasy Flight have the licence.

Yet, the major rules that are missing in BRP are centred around subsystems like star system, planet, spaceship, and robot design. A core, generic, toolbox would be a significant edition, along with a breakdown essay of genre conventions and ideas, alien stats, etc, would be very useful.

[wbcreighton]

On the topic of boxed sets I'm quoting an article from Ryan Dancey found here:

http://www.enworld.org/forum/news/315800-4-hours-w-rsd-escapist-bonus-column.html

It gives an idea of why rpg content doesn't come in boxes very often. I tend to think that Paizo is doing a loss leader with their PF Starter Boxed set.

The first was that the products the industry was producing had become too costly. The boxed set, in particular, was a huge problem. The cost of a boxed set vs. a hardcover book was often a multiple, rather than a percentage. The cost of a hardcover vs. a softcover book was also substantial. In fact, we found several high profile D&D products that were costing the company more to make than the suggested retail price of those products! This issue was endemic throughout the industry, since many publishers assumed they had to “keep up” with TSR in order to be competitive. But TSR wasn’t acting rationally, and had set its suggested retail prices based on its opinion of what the market would pay, not based on what they needed to charge in order to make a profit on the things they were publishing.

In this field, we often use a shorthand pricing system called the “Rule of 5”. Under this rule, you determine the suggested price of a product by multiplying the cost of the product by 5. Factoring in the 3-tier distribution system the industry uses, the result is that the final suggested retail price produces the following divisions:

• 20%: Cost of Goods (the cost of the production of the product, plus the wages paid to people who worked on it and any licenses or royalties)

• 20%: Gross Profit (that is, profit before subtracting all operational costs like salaries, marketing, rent, etc.) to the Publisher

• 20%: Distributor Margin (the gross profit the Distributor earns)

• 40%: Retailer Margin (the gross profit the Retailer earns)

This means that every $1 of cost increases the suggested retail price by $5. Some of the things TSR was doing were adding $10 to the cost of its products – which should have added $50 to the suggested retail prices – easily pushing many of those products into the $100 range. Instead, TSR was just losing money every time it sold one of these products. And the people who made those products never knew, because TSR’s dysfunctional management system hid that information from them. It was not until they got to Wizards of the Coast and had a chance to see the “real numbers” that they realized what had been happening.

The entire column is an interesting read. The idea of rpgs generating network effects is also interesting:

We realized that TRPGs fall into a special class of products & services that generate network effects. In our case, the effect that had the most impact was the concept of the network externality. For TRPGs, the “true value” of the product is not in the book/box that you buy. It is in the network of social connections that you share which enable you to play the game. Without that social network, the game’s value is massively reduced (it becomes literature, and there’s a small market for people who like to just read and never play TRPG content).

[Baron]

If true, it's a sad insight into trying to run a business without knowing what you're doing.

OTOH, 'loss leaders' serve a purpose. Getting a significant increase of people introduced to your product is worth something, too. Then those new players will need to buy books, on which there would hopefully be a better profit.

And I'll say it again; boardgames come in boxes. With fiddly bits. Is every gaming company losing money on boxed boardgames? Really?

[TrippyHippy]

Presumably, the Mongoose release of the Legend PDF is a 'loss leader' of sorts too.

I do note that a Pathfinder RPG representative was on the same forum and made it plain that their Basic box set was still profitable.

There is also the consideration that needs to be made about the future of books generally, in regards to the advent of eReaders. If the prices of IPads and the like come down in the near future - it may become the dominant medium of all books. I do know that some of the major book chains have been struggling badly recently. Where it leaves gaming retailers in the future? Book- based games may become less and less viable on the shelves - but box sets can't be done electronically. If you want to keep game retailers in the loop - and keep a brand identity on the shelf - then it's a point worth considering.

[wbcreighton]

If true, it's a sad insight into trying to run a business without knowing what you're doing.

OTOH, 'loss leaders' serve a purpose. Getting a significant increase of people introduced to your product is worth something, too. Then those new players will need to buy books, on which there would hopefully be a better profit.

And I'll say it again; boardgames come in boxes. With fiddly bits. Is every gaming company losing money on boxed boardgames? Really?

I would guess that they are pricing their product with greater insight.

He also adds his definition of hobby game (rpg):

I define a Hobby Game as one where (at least one person) spends more time preparing to play the game than actually playing it. For TRPGs that is usually the GM, but often it is players as well. This “out of game time” may be the biggest obstacle to overcome to keeping the TRPG platform competitive.

I think that commercially successful TRPGs of the future will be constructed more like a family game – something that can be unpacked, learned quickly, and played with little prep work. These games will give people a lot of the same joy of “roleplaying” and narrative control that they get from today’s Hobby Game TRPGs but with a fraction of the time investment. Wizards is already experimenting with this format, as is Fantasy Flight Games. It seems like a good bet that there is a substantially profitable business down this line of evolution.

I find that as I have aged, I have less and less time to devote to preparing a game. I don't have the time to invent an entire world for every campaign. Doesn't mean I enjoy gaming and rping less, but it does mean I will steer towards a game that has prepared scenarios etc.

[wbcreighton]

Presumably, the Mongoose release of the Legend PDF is a 'loss leader' of sorts too.

I do note that a Pathfinder RPG representative was on the same forum and made it plain that their Basic box set was still profitable.

Well that is good to hear. They do seem to know what they are doing at Paizo.

- but box sets can't be done electronically. If you want to keep game retailers in the loop - and keep a brand identity on the shelf - then it's a point worth considering.

You can get the contents of the boxed set and the additional material for the Paizo Beginner box in PDF format. They think of everything.

If you subscribe to any of the Paizo products you get a free pdf copy of it. Including their fiction line.

[silent_bob]

I would guess that they are pricing their product with greater insight.

He also adds his definition of hobby game (rpg):

I find that as I have aged, I have less and less time to devote to preparing a game. I don't have the time to invent an entire world for every campaign. Doesn't mean I enjoy gaming and rping less, but it does mean I will steer towards a game that has prepared scenarios etc.

True, but when you really age you will retire and you'll have more time to play RPGs

[kafka]

I am not convinced that it would be a wise business strategy for Chaosium to let their

Cthulhu line go the way of Trail of Cthulhu , because this would mean to compete direct-

ly with their own licensee, which is rarely a profitable approach. As for GURPS, I see the

relation between BRP and GURPS more like a mutual support for a specific style of roleplay-

ing than like a situation where the death of one system would in any way help the other

system.

What I am suggesting is that Chaosium get back into the business of doing adult games not teen games with adult cautionary warnings. I think any topic can be handled in a mature manner and still being respectful to the fact that there are younger members of the audience reading the material. This is something that Pelgrane and to a lesser extent Pagan (which does delve into the dark and adult) has mastered. It would not necessarily put them into competition but widen the playing field. Licenses and monographs do that to a certain extent but I think people tend to follow the leader and if Chaosium was seen to be to be a company that handles mature topics in a horror genre rather than another Magic Book or another rendition of a Classic Adventure. For instance, if the future Gaslight supplement would deal more with Victorian Holmesia and delve more into the darker aspects - the Empire, Condition of Children, even Sexuality...it would be a more rounded and successful product.

GURPS & BRP are somewhat in symbiotic relationship - indeed they support another mode of play but also they compete for the same gaming dollar. Now, if the new Delta Green would come out as a GURPS product - I would buy it because I want new Delta Green products. However, the problem is that the new development would sort of make the old products seem quaint. So, if there is to be a rival to D&D then one of the other major companies must go. Now, White Wolf is not going anywhere thanks to their partnership with CCP. D&D/Pathfinder will probably always have a place on most gaming shelves (although, I have not a set of rules since AD&D 1e). So that leaves a bloated middle. BRP has done some great things and is a superior form of play but it is still complex but not nearly as much as GURPS. So, by knocking GURPS out...my point is that it would advance up the totem pole as the possible contender D&D/Pathfinder as the second game of choice. For all other rivals are below BRP & GURPS.

[TrippyHippy]

The new Delta Green edition has been mooted as being 'backwards compatable'. Even though, therefore, they are making it a self contained game rather than a supplement, the system will still essentially be BRP.

Also, as far as I can see, Chaosium still very much produce game books for adults.

In terms of 'contenders', if game companies sort themselves out, my feeling is that - in 20 years or so - the main game systems (with the widest playing audience) will still be:

Dungeons and Dragons (in some form or other).

Traveller (In some form or another)

Call of Cthulhu and BRP related games (in some form or other).

Maybe a Superhero game (or Urban Fantasy game, including the likes of Vampire, Champions and Shadowrun).

There may be others, but to me these three or four games represent 95% of the core roleplaying experience, and everything else is just footnotes.

Edited January 11, 2012 by TrippyHippy