A question about Worship skill bonuses

[meridian]

Hello all!

I’m laying the groundwork for an RQ campaign using the Starter Set and Adventure Book in the GMs Kit, with the heroes starting in Jonstown then being recruited, Magnificent Seven style, into Defending Apple Lane. While looking everything over I took note of Xiobalg’s ambition to become a Rune Lord (or Leader, per Cults of Runequest: The Earth Goddesses). Being new to the system, I undertook a thought experiment to see what his ritual might look like in game terms. I want to make sure I have my math right.

I presume becoming a Leader will involve a big ceremony and a Worship (Bloody Tusk) roll. The skill roll doesn’t seem to be required, but I figure putting on a big show could gain Xiombalg prestige among his fellow Tusk Riders, as well as edifying his own ego (and restoring the Rune Points he spent sacking Apple Lane). There are lots of ways to modify the skill roll, and I set out to compute them all and see what kind of numbers Xioblag would be playing with.

• Base Skill: Xiombalg has a Worship (Bloody Tusk) of 60%
• Passion: Though the stats in the scenario don’t specify anything but Hate, I’m presuming he’d have a Devotion (Bloody Tusk) of 60%, gained when he became an Initiate.

Modifiers:

Here’s where the fun begins. I’m presuming the attack on Apple Lane is early in the season, the Wildday of Disorder Week: Disorder seems fitting, and doing it in Harmony week would mean attacking on Uleria’s seasonal holy day, which would be inauspicious. Xiombalg carries out his attack, taking the hands of all the priests in Apple Lane with their spirits bound in them as trophies. He journeys to Ivory Plinth and holds his ritual on Wildday of Death Week, the Bloody Tusk’s seasonal holy day. He engages in ritual preparation for 2 days before the ceremony begins, arriving early to have the time to do the prep and overpower any other Riders who mean to use the Plinth that day (I can’t imagine all the chieftains peacefully taking a number for temple access). When all is done, Xiobalg finally makes his Worship skill roll with the following modifiers:

• 55% - 2 days ritual prep (he could conceivably do a week, but I figure interruption at the Ivory Plinth is a real possibility - and an additional 5% for five whole days doesn’t seem like a good investment)
• 20% - Seasonal Holy Day
• 30% - Great Temple
• 400% - Sacrifice of 40 MP beyond the 2 base MP the roll requires (he has 46 after his POW sacrifice to create his offering)
• 20% - Sacrifice of the spirit bound hand of the Apple Lane Uleria Priestess (counting it as a magic item)
• -10%, +20%, +30%, or +50% from the Passion augment based on the degree of success (fail, succeed, special, critical). A fumbled Passion roll presumably botches the entire ritual.

So, his total bonus is +515, 545, 555, or 575%, based on the Passion result. That makes his modified skill 575, 605, 615, or 635%. At worst, Xiobalg has a 29% chance of a critical success, and a 115% chance of a special success. 

These are some big numbers. Note that I’m not at all complaining: I’ve got a bachelor’s in Anthropogy and an obsession with modifier-heavy magic systems (Nephilim, BRP Enlightened Magic, and GURPS Cabal are my guiding stars): I’m an RQ true believer - the effort Xiombalg is investing here is worth a huge bonus - he’s in effect boosting his worship skill by a factor of 10. I can only imagine the numbers Leika and the Clearwine Ring must be throwing around on High Holy Days, and bonuses like these make it easy to believe that the Worship ceremonies every Sacred Time are (re)creating the universe. But I’m concerned I’m missing something. Are my numbers above on target? I want to know if I’ve missed any limiting factors here - is there a maximum number of MP you can sacrifice for a Worship roll? Do ritual factors (place, time, sacrifices) all stack, or do you just take the highest modifier? 

 

[Scotty]

12 hours ago, meridian said:

I presume becoming a Leader will involve a big ceremony and a Worship (Bloody Tusk) roll.

He just needs to meet the requirements. No roll is required (see also Rune Lord in Mythology, Universal cult format, page 146). As Xiombalg is already a leader of a (small) band, he be accepted automatically.

12 hours ago, meridian said:

Modifiers:

This all looks fine to me, but there is effectively nothing to apply the result to. The Worship skill's primary use is to regain Rune points (per RQG 315). Remember 96-00 is always a failure, so as a GM I only roll to see if that happens (and in many cases a failure still gets you RPs). See also Auto success - RQG 141.

[Brian Duguid]

From discussion elsewhere, quite a few GMs simply house-rule out the magic points bonus (or if you wanted an intermediary result - just limit it to personal magic points).

I've used the Worship skill for other purposes i.e. to determine how well a ceremony is performed, such as the ceremony that invokes the beginning of a heroquest. A good roll on the ceremony then establishes an augment to certain tasks during the heroquest. This makes choosing the time, place and nature of sacrifices something worth tracking.

[Eff]

18 hours ago, meridian said:

I presume becoming a Leader will involve a big ceremony and a Worship (Bloody Tusk) roll. The skill roll doesn’t seem to be required, but I figure putting on a big show could gain Xiombalg prestige among his fellow Tusk Riders, as well as edifying his own ego (and restoring the Rune Points he spent sacking Apple Lane).

Yes, this seems very reasonable to me- although Xiombalg would know he was a Leader of Bloody Tusk, tuskriders aren't psychic, so showing that off with a big flashy ceremony of thanks to the Bloody Tusk makes sense. 

Quote

These are some big numbers.

They sure are! It's a shame that the only thing Worship can ever do by the rules-as-intended is restore Rune Points, because the wide array of bonuses available make it so that achieving gigantic upfront numbers that could then be used to counter more modestly sized maluses is quite doable with effort and thought. To me, that suggests that there ought to be ways to use this worship-roll system to achieve other effects on the world. 

Granted, when it comes to what we might call broad-scope social/geographical effects, there's just not that much for these big numbers to even conceivably hook onto- a harvest roll which is similarly limited in scope, and that's about it. 

But perhaps you could set up a conversion chart where the benefits of attribute training, Rune magic, or the like can be converted into a malus applied to the roll, along with extending it outwards in scope. Xiombalg's ceremony might bless his gang's tuskers with greater strength, ferocity (increased attack %s), or bless his gang themselves in similar ways, or make their personal belongings stronger (more HP on weapons, eg). 

[radmonger]

There's a rule on P253 of RQ:G that I suspect a lot of people ignore:

Certain spirit magic spells may be offered to initiates as part of the ceremonies on holy days.

Outside that, it takes a week of time from a shaman or priest. So if you lead a warband of 30 or more, it will be impractical to teach them all a spirit magic spell; you would need a magic teacher dedicated full time for each spell you want your dudes to know. But it seems instead you can hold a big ceremony on an auspicious day, and just say 'everyone come and get your Speedart'. Even if it takes you a months preparation, it's a clear win.

While the rules aren't trying to be a large-scale sim Glorantha, it's reasonable to say that there is some relationship between effective worship skill, the number rolled, and the number of people who can learn a given spell in one ceremony.

As far as I can tell, RAW this only applies to spirit magic, but it would make sense for Rune Magic too.

[PhilHibbs]

The way it is written kind of assumes that someone is officiating at the promotion ceremony, and pronounces success or failure. If Xiobalg is attempting to self-promote in the absence of any other Leader - which I guess happens a lot with Bloody Tusk, you kill the old one and replace them - then it makes sense to do so in as flashy and impressive a manner as possible. But the real test is when he tries to use his position to teach spirit and rune spells. If he succeeds in doing that, then he's a Leader with no doubt.

On the other hand, the rules are for adventurers. Or, the way I like to think of it, they are the threads that stitch together the player-adventurer-world-GM fabric. We can take some guidance from them regarding the rest of the world, but it should be treated with caution. Other opinions are available - some people believe that the RuneQuest rules ARE the rules of Glorantha, and that everything that can be extrapolated from them should be. There's some fun to be found in that, don't get me wrong!

[Akhôrahil]

It’s a weird design that you will always have 95% of success in Worship (barring some truly unusual circumstances), but also that it does nothing but let you regain Rune Points on a success. That’s a lot of rules text for something that barely matters - the game could just give out Rune Points for participating and it wouldn’t have made a significant difference.

This makes the Worship skill one of the least important in the game (50% helps with a lot of Rune Priest positions, but you will quickly get 50% in something you succeed in every season).

[PhilHibbs]

7 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

It’s a weird design that you will always have 95% of success in Worship (barring some truly unusual circumstances), but also that it does nothing but let you regain Rune Points on a success. That’s a lot of rules text for something that barely matters - the game could just give out Rune Points for participating and it wouldn’t have made a significant difference.

I agree, and it also creates a situation of "occasionally you will be low on Rune Points for no reason other than bad luck".

I'd rather have more opportunities for regaining RP, but with a more modest chance of success. It keeps an element of uncertainty, and keeps the players engaged in the magical landscape of the world.

If you just always get pretty much all your RP back once a season, with one chance only, and a 5% chance of disaster, that's not great.

Four chances to get a few points back each time, and you're keeping track of your associate cults and their holy days, with roleplaying and trading and training opportunities, and a chance to learn associate cult magic, much better.

Or you could just handwave that you get all your points back between adventures, and run one adventure per season. That's also fine, if that suits the group. I like to keep things a little more detailed and use that as a hook to draw people into the world.

[Akhôrahil]

1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said:

Or you could just handwave that you get all your points back between adventures, and run one adventure per season. That's also fine, if that suits the group. I like to keep things a little more detailed and use that as a hook to draw people into the world.

I also like to now and then have two adventures in a season, to keep the players a little on their toes about feeling safe to blow out all their Rune Points in every adventure.

[PhilHibbs]

On 5/5/2024 at 11:43 PM, radmonger said:

There's a rule on P253 of RQ:G that I suspect a lot of people ignore:

Certain spirit magic spells may be offered to initiates as part of the ceremonies on holy days.

Outside that, it takes a week of time from a shaman or priest. So if you lead a warband of 30 or more, it will be impractical to teach them all a spirit magic spell; you would need a magic teacher dedicated full time for each spell you want your dudes to know.

It takes a week of the student's time, I don't think it takes the rune master's entire time for that week.

[Akhôrahil]

8 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

It takes a week of the student's time, I don't think it takes the rune master's entire time for that week.

I think it does - that would explain the severe cost.

[Jose-san]

I houseruled that sacrificing PM gives +1% each instead of +10%. There are enough bonuses already. I houseruled experience gains to be a bit more generous, though. I try to find a balance that works for us.