PCs vs Harrek

[John Biles]

13th Age PCs certainly start tough; should a group of 10th level PCs be able to fight a Superhero and win?  My essence says yes.  But I am very much of the 'the PCs can potentially topple anything, though some things are REALLY hard to topple'.

What do you all think?

(I'd make Superheroes 14th level triple-strength creatures and thus a very dangerous threat.  (A 14th level triple strength foe can take on 6 10th level PCs in an even match)

[7Tigers]

Hum... How can people "win" against someone able to come back from the Underworld? And someone with a lot of underlings & allies: it is not as if H will be ever be alone & waiting to be killed...?

[John Biles]

11 hours ago, 7Tigers said:

Hum... How can people "win" against someone able to come back from the Underworld? And someone with a lot of underlings & allies: it is not as if H will be ever be alone & waiting to be killed...?

10th level 13th Age characters can probably raise armies that will deal with Harrek's underlings and can themselves come back from the Underworld.

The question is whether they should be at a level to have a chance to beat him even if he does come back from the Underworld.

[svensson]

PCs vs Harrek?

Easy: Roll up a new character 🤣

Yes the PCs begin RQG very near Rune levels, at least insofar as weapon skills go. Some of the other skills needed, especially Magic skills, will need serious work before the tests. But Harrek is a fully realized Hero-with-a-Capital-H. If you look at the GM Kit Scenario Book, you'll see Queen Leika and her entourage. A team of PCs would have a tough time indeed handling that warband [even without followers] if that band was putting their full effort into it. And according to @Jeff Heroes are orders of magnitude more difficult opponents, with multiple powers granted by Heroquests, and fully empowered by their gods beyond the normal powers of Rune Lords or Priests on the Mundane Plane.

Now, I'm not fully versed in the 13A mechanics or system. But any set of mechanics that give PCs a change against the likes of Harrek, Argrath, or Jar-Eel without significant HeroQuesting and other deeds of truly epic daring-do are absolutely short-changing what being a Hero is supposed to be.

[Jens]

36 minutes ago, svensson said:

significant HeroQuesting and other deeds of truly epic daring-do

That’s exactly what the rules of 13th Age are about. A level 1 character in 13th Age Glorantha is already a Rune Level equivalent; by 10th level they’re likely a capital H Hero. 

It makes sense to me that a 10th level party can take down Harrek through clever play; as mentioned keeping him down is another story altogether (win a battle, but not a war). 

[AndrewTBP]

The Famished Crimson Bat is a Quintuple-strength 15th level Spoiler [Chaos Beast] in 13th Age Glorantha. I’d have to do the battle building math by hand, but it’s not insurmountable to a larger party of 10th level PCs. It’s accompanied by Bat Lords & Bat Priests (10th level) & Vicious Chaos Lice (9th level), to help make the fight varied & interesting. 

[AndrewTBP]

On 5/9/2024 at 7:43 AM, 7Tigers said:

Hum... How can people "win" against someone able to come back from the Underworld? And someone with a lot of underlings & allies: it is not as if H will be ever be alone & waiting to be killed...?

Every PC in 13th Age Glorantha has a good chance of doing a Heroic Return, and the chance gets better at champion tier & epic tier. 
So far I haven’t needed to use these rules, because killing PCs in a 13th Age game is really hard, even with a Triple Strength fight! 

Edited May 10 by AndrewTBP

[soltakss]

On 5/8/2024 at 10:27 PM, John Biles said:

13th Age PCs certainly start tough; should a group of 10th level PCs be able to fight a Superhero and win?  My essence says yes.  But I am very much of the 'the PCs can potentially topple anything, though some things are REALLY hard to topple'.

I have played enough games of Dragon Pass to know that Harrek can definitely be beaten. It is difficult and requires lots of Hero-Level forces, but he can be beaten. If you play a mixture of Dragon Pass and Nomad Gods, then it is easier, as many of the Nomad Gods pieces are almost equivalent to Harrek in combat terms.

Whether Adventurers can reach those power levels is entirely up to your style as a GM and the way your games work.

I have run through the Hero Wars in two separate Campaigns, in the first the Adventurers killed Argrath, because one of the Adventurers saw him as a rival, and killed Harrek because he was Argrath's friend, then killed him again and bound him into a Lunar Hell. In the second Campaign, the Adventurers completely sidelined Argrath, doing all the things he was meant to do, then allied Harrek and made him Duke of the Upland Marsh.

On 5/8/2024 at 10:43 PM, 7Tigers said:

Hum... How can people "win" against someone able to come back from the Underworld? And someone with a lot of underlings & allies: it is not as if H will be ever be alone & waiting to be killed...?

I have played enough games of Dragon Pass to know that Harrek does not always come back. Also, see the above comment of binding him into a Lunar Hell. Killing him and devouring his soul, for example using the Crimson Bat, might be possible.

On 5/9/2024 at 10:40 AM, John Biles said:

The question is whether they should be at a level to have a chance to beat him even if he does come back from the Underworld.

That depends on the GM and the game style of the Campaign.

On 5/9/2024 at 11:55 AM, svensson said:

PCs vs Harrek?

Easy: Roll up a new character 🤣

That's about the same as "Going into Dorastor? Roll up a new character". Funny but not at all fun.

On 5/9/2024 at 11:55 AM, svensson said:

Now, I'm not fully versed in the 13A mechanics or system. But any set of mechanics that give PCs a change against the likes of Harrek, Argrath, or Jar-Eel without significant HeroQuesting and other deeds of truly epic daring-do are absolutely short-changing what being a Hero is supposed to be.

Presumably the idea is that this happens after a lot of HeroQuesting.

In the first Hero Wars Campaign, we gave each Adventurer a piece on the board and used Dragon Pass rules for mass combat. They weren't powerful but obtained powerful allies.

12 hours ago, AndrewTBP said:

The Famished Crimson Bat is a Quintuple-strength 15th level Spoiler [Chaos Beast] in 13th Age Glorantha. I’d have to do the battle building math by hand, but it’s not insurmountable to a larger party of 10th level PCs. It’s accompanied by Bat Lords & Bat Priests (10th level) & Vicious Chaos Lice (9th level), to help make the fight varied & interesting.

That could do it.

 

 

[John Biles]

19 hours ago, AndrewTBP said:

The Famished Crimson Bat is a Quintuple-strength 15th level Spoiler [Chaos Beast] in 13th Age Glorantha. I’d have to do the battle building math by hand, but it’s not insurmountable to a larger party of 10th level PCs. It’s accompanied by Bat Lords & Bat Priests (10th level) & Vicious Chaos Lice (9th level), to help make the fight varied & interesting. 

Thank you everyone.   My PCs will probably never see Harrek, but they will likely eventually throw down with someone on that level by the end. 

A Quintuple-Strength 15th level spoiler is equivalent to 12 10th level PCs  With allies, doable.

 

 

[AndrewTBP]

Just to give everyone a spot of context, in 13th Age the Tarrasque is a Huge 15th level wrecker [beast], where huge = triple-strength. 😉

[Joerg]

21 hours ago, soltakss said:

I have played enough games of Dragon Pass to know that Harrek does not always come back. Also, see the above comment of binding him into a Lunar Hell. Killing him and devouring his soul, for example using the Crimson Bat, might be possible.

As with the barbarian dragonewts from Ralios in the battle that led to the Smoking Ruins, failure to return in the board game means that for whatever reason his comeuppance will be delayed until after the campaign term.