What's the appeal for Random Armor Value?

[Jens]

[Mechashef]

On 6/16/2024 at 5:42 AM, Jens said:

Of course. 🙂   That big strong CON 20 heart will be pumping blood around like anything.  Cutting of a limb will result in a veritable blood fountain.  That lethargic CON 5 heart will result in paltry trickle of blood weeping from the torso 🙂 leaving the character the dilemma of which part of the backpack to stow their severed limbs in, and how to accomplish that without arms.  Though perhaps the stashing of severed arms in a backpack is an important but often overlooked task for suitably embodied allied spirits. 

[TheEnclave]

Random armor is too swingy and adds too much crunch.

If you base your game off Cthulhu Dark Ages's system I think impales already do a decent job of covering penetrating armor weakpoints without potentially making that heavy plate you're wearing useless.

[Ian Ollmann]

On 6/14/2024 at 4:33 AM, Barak Shathur said:

I've long sworn by hit locations, but lately I've switched to Major Wounds because as a GM I find it too finicky to keep track of seven separate hit point pools (plus total hit points, so eight really) for each of my throw away orcs etc. 

Pardon the dumb question, but you keep track of hit locations for monsters?  You are keeping track of wounds for the party members?

I guess there are war-games...

[Ian Ollmann]

On 6/15/2024 at 6:37 AM, Atgxtg said:

Do you have the one where the guy with a low CON can survive losing two limbs while the guy with a high CON can't?

It's certainly true in BRP 1.03. Someone with 3 HP can survive 2 lost legs whereas someone with 4 hit points can not.  It is an unfortunate result of rounding up. Though, I imagine the guy with 4 HP will be quite happy with the fact that his legs have twice the HP of the other guy.  (p21)  Since SIZ is at least 8 and CON is needed to live, human characters of unmodified size will never have this problem. (8 SIZ + 1 CON) / 2 (round up) = 5.  Now we know why the rules don't have halfling PCs.

 

[Barak Shathur]

On 7/2/2024 at 1:57 AM, TheEnclave said:

Random armor is too swingy and adds too much crunch.

If you base your game off Cthulhu Dark Ages's system I think impales already do a decent job of covering penetrating armor weakpoints without potentially making that heavy plate you're wearing useless.

Agree 100%. Impale, at least in it's RQ and BRP iterations (and I guess Dark Ages?) does simulate the function of stabbing through gaps, in a way that seems more or less historically accurate. It also corresponds to the fact that swords and spears were the most popular weapons for a long time.

[Barak Shathur]

6 hours ago, Ian Ollmann said:

Pardon the dumb question, but you keep track of hit locations for monsters?  You are keeping track of wounds for the party members?

I guess there are war-games...

Pardon in return, but I'm not sure I understand the question entirely. If I use hit locations, I keep track of monsters' and NPCs' HP and hit locations, players keep track of their characters'. Isn't this how everyone does it?

Edited July 6 by Barak Shathur

[Nozbat]

8 hours ago, Ian Ollmann said:

Now we know why the rules don't have halfling PCs.

There are no halfling PCs because ... we hates it forever

 

[Atgxtg]

11 hours ago, Ian Ollmann said:

It's certainly true in BRP 1.03. Someone with 3 HP can survive 2 lost legs whereas someone with 4 hit points can not.  It is an unfortunate result of rounding up. Though, I imagine the guy with 4 HP will be quite happy with the fact that his legs have twice the HP of the other guy.  (p21)  Since SIZ is at least 8 and CON is needed to live, human characters of unmodified size will never have this problem. (8 SIZ + 1 CON) / 2 (round up) = 5.  Now we know why the rules don't have halfling PCs.

 

Yeah, it was one of the old Murphy's Rules things. Another was that someone with a low CON heals faster than someone with a high CON. That's due to hit points being tied to CON, but everyone healing at the same rate. 

Murphy's Rules was full of odd quirks about games. FOr instance in AD&D never trust a thief who can use a shield but can't use a two handed sword. 

[Atgxtg]

On 6/15/2024 at 3:42 PM, Jens said:

Thankks!

[Thot]

For me, the appeal is that it is just much, much faster.

[g33k]

13 hours ago, Ian Ollmann said:

Pardon the dumb question, but you keep track of hit locations for monsters?  You are keeping track of wounds for the party members?

I guess there are war-games...

The little "target dummy" figure is the core of my combat-NPC sheet.
(Mooks are REALLY simple at my table, generally dropping (or fleeing/surrendering/etc) on any hit doing 3+ HP's in one blow, or 2 blows of 2 HP's, and ignoring "just a flesh wound" 1-HP blows)

But if the NPC is more than a "mook" then yes:  I too use HP/location, including for "monster" NPCs.

My experience at the table is that this makes combat go faster, and is more dramatic & cinematic.

 

Edited July 6 by g33k

[Atgxtg]

5 hours ago, Thot said:

For me, the appeal is that it is just much, much faster.

Could you elaborate on that?

I think that subtracting a fixed value should be faster than subtracting a random one? Am I missing something?

[Thot]

2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Could you elaborate on that?

I think that subtracting a fixed value should be faster than subtracting a random one? Am I missing something?

If you use any kind of heavier armor for the NPC's, beating them down to "no longer resisting" will take longer with fixed armor. Random armor will allow the occasional breakthrough with damage, while still conveying the feeling that armor is a potentially very useful thing.

But apart from that, I also find bookkeeping much simpler with just one number of hitpoints, and with random armor values, I can do that without sacrificing the setup to have more or less protective armor across the body.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 6 by Thot

[Nozbat]

Slightly off topic, which I will apologise for now.. but..

I've moved away from using hit locations to just using Total HPs, Major Wounds and Serious (possibly fatal) Wounds. It certainly makes combat a lot faster and just like in the old days of Stormbringer... you can have impressive scars to boast about.. or you are dead. Total HPs also means its much easier to track GMCs and large scale combats don't require spreadsheets and a concern about working out if ex-colleague's severed limbs trip up intimidated and fleeing minions.

I haven't come to a fixed opinion about variable armour yet. I'm playing an Early Modern Period, so half armour (helmet and breastplate) is usual. It would make sense to use a variable armour mechanism as the victim could be hit in the arms or legs which has no armour cover. That is unless you count the Landsknecht's gaudy pantaloons and codpieces as armour?

The other issue is that armour only counts as 50% of its value for  Black Powder weapons. Combat is therefore lethal and not to be entered into without the high possibility of coming out the other side. 

So my dilemma about variable armour is that Black powder weapons make combat even more dangerous. I'm leaning towards allowing a fixed armour rating

 

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Thot said:

If you use any kind of heavier armor for the NPC's, beating them down to "no longer resisting" will take longer with fixed armor. Random armor will allow the occasional breakthrough with damage, while still conveying the feeling that armor is a potentially very useful thing.

Oh, wow. I'm glad I asked that. I thought you meant it was faster than rolling hit locations, tracking pieces of armor, etc. The idea that the random damage rolls for higher damages and faster combat caught me off guard. So die randomness and bloodier combat as a feature, not a bug!

1 hour ago, Thot said:

But apart from that, I also find bookkeeping much simpler with just one number of hitpoints, and with random armor values, I can do that without sacrificing the setup to have more or less protective armor across the body.

Okay. I can buy that.

Oh, and I suppose someone could do major wounds with hit locations and drop the HP per location. I'm surprised no one has yet. It should make for slighter tougher BRP characters.

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Nozbat said:

Slightly off topic, which I will apologise for now.. but..

I've moved away from using hit locations to just using Total HPs, Major Wounds and Serious (possibly fatal) Wounds. It certainly makes combat a lot faster and just like in the old days of Stormbringer... you can have impressive scars to boast about.. or you are dead. Total HPs also means its much easier to track GMCs and large scale combats don't require spreadsheets and a concern about working out if ex-colleague's severed limbs trip up intimidated and fleeing minions.

I haven't come to a fixed opinion about variable armour yet. I'm playing an Early Modern Period, so half armour (helmet and breastplate) is usual. It would make sense to use a variable armour mechanism as the victim could be hit in the arms or legs which has no armour cover. That is unless you count the Landsknecht's gaudy pantaloons and codpieces as armour?

You might want to alter the random value to be a bell curve. Say 2d4 instead of 1d8, 2d3 instead of 1d6 and so on. That way armor would be fairly consistent but could occasionally let you down. That is unless you prefer the higher randomness of a single die, like Thot.

1 hour ago, Nozbat said:

The other issue is that armour only counts as 50% of its value for  Black Powder weapons. Combat is therefore lethal and not to be entered into without the high possibility of coming out the other side. 

So my dilemma about variable armour is that Black powder weapons make combat even more dangerous. I'm leaning towards allowing a fixed armour rating

 

You can do that.

Alternately, you could introduce "poorfed" armor that isn't halved against black powder weapons. It's what happened historically. Armorers  made tougher armor that was "proofed" against firearms and charged a higher price for it. They would "proof" (prove) the armor firing a weapon at it,  and leave the dent as proof that the armor worked. That's where we get the term bulletproof.

Of course you  have to trust that the armorer was honest, and did indeed make the armor bulletproof and that they didn't just dent it with a hammer when no one was looking so they could up the price.  I't's not likely someone is going to come back for a refund.  

[Questbird]

3 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Oh, and I suppose someone could do major wounds with hit locations and drop the HP per location. I'm surprised no one has yet. It should make for slighter tougher BRP characters.

 

 

Aquelarre has done it. There's a single pool of hit points and you do more or less damage depending on where you hit. Eg. a head hit does 2x damage (after first subtracting armour), limbs do half.

There are effects for both attritional damage and Major wounds (which are called Repercussions) in that game.

At half hit points you are Wounded and your movement and damage bonus are halved.

At one quarter hit points you  are Gravely Wounded and with each hit you take after that you risk unconsciousness (with a check)

Additionally, if you take a single hit of half your hit points, you suffer a Repercussion (ie. Major Wound). There are separate Repercussion tables for each hit location.

Of course, using a hit location system, Aquelarre has fixed armour ratings, not random.

Edited July 7 by Questbird

[Atgxtg]

11 hours ago, Questbird said:

Aquelarre has done it. There's a single pool of hit points and you do more or less damage depending on where you hit. Eg. a head hit does 2x damage (after first subtracting armour), limbs do half.

There are effects for both attritional damage and Major wounds (which are called Repercussions) in that game.

At half hit points you are Wounded and your movement and damage bonus are halved.

At one quarter hit points you  are Gravely Wounded and with each hit you take after that you risk unconsciousness (with a check)

Additionally, if you take a single hit of half your hit points, you suffer a Repercussion (ie. Major Wound). There are separate Repercussion tables for each hit location.

Oh, I stand corrected.

I don't get to see any Spanish RPGs.  I never even heard of Aquelarre before. How is it?  Is there an English translation?

 

11 hours ago, Questbird said:

Of course, using a hit location system, Aquelarre has fixed armour ratings, not random.

The two are not multually exclusive. I could see a game using different dice values with hit locations the way we track different fixed values.  . It would actually make some sense too as most armor has gaps and areas of lesser protection.

 

[hix]

On 5/20/2024 at 1:09 PM, Nokaion said:

 why someone would actively want this rule in their game?

I always use random armor (in concert with hit locations because dismemberment is the core of roleplay)

It prevents an "arms race" wtih the gm. Even your 2d10 power armor rolls a 3 sometimes, but generally bullets bounce off of you. If that's a static number, my gm instincts tell me to up the damage, right or wrong. Random armor allows me to have no problem with the crew wading through 2d6 submachine gun fire.

[Nozbat]

The more I think about it.. the more I like the idea of random armour but as @Atgxtg says using more dice to make a nice bell curve. Even the best armour has weak points.

Thanks for the information about proofing armour, it certainly makes sense.. and adds to the cost of the armour, no doubt

Best I have a discussion with the players and see what they think about randomness 

[Nozbat]

1 hour ago, hix said:

It prevents an "arms race" wtih the gm

Yes .. that becomes a real factor to keep the jeopardy of combat alive. It's an interesting way to think about medieval and Early Modern armour and weapons @hix. 

Good to have different perspectives

[Atgxtg]

1 hour ago, Nozbat said:

The more I think about it.. the more I like the idea of random armour but as @Atgxtg says using more dice to make a nice bell curve. Even the best armour has weak points.

And strong points. When I was doing up a piece armor system for Pendragon Inoticed just how much it can vary. For a chest hit against someone in  plate you can hit:

-Bare skin or clothing: If you get just the right angle at neck

-Aketon (padded doublet): If you hit in the armpit, neck or waist at just the right angle, of if the oppoent isn't wearing  a backplate.

Aketon+Plate: the typical spot

Aketon+Plate+Gorget or Aketon+Plate+High Guard: Neck Area

Aketon+Plate+High Guard+Gorget: Bad angle neck hit

Aketon+Plate+High Guard+Helmet: Very bad angle neck hit

Aketon+Plate+Plate: If the armor has a placard (a "pot-bellied" second layer of plate to protect the front chest and abdomen)

 

And the thickness of the plate also varied depedning on where you got hit.

1 hour ago, Nozbat said:

Thanks for the information about proofing armour, it certainly makes sense.. and adds to the cost of the armour, no doubt

Yea probably something like double the price. 

1 hour ago, Nozbat said:

Best I have a discussion with the players and see what they think about randomness 

Best if you figure out what the random values will be first, before presenting it to the players. They will probably look at it from the viewpoint of how much will their protection go down. Players typical just how the rule will affect their characters in this sort of situation, and not the big picture. I've seen players in a similar situation turn te idea down even though their opponents usually worn more armor.

So first figure out how random you want it to be. Pick the dice, lokk it over, and then prersent it to you players. Or else they will just shoot it down.

IMO, Plate with helm  going from 8 to 1D10/1D10+2 will be a hard sell

 going from 8 to 2D6/2D6+1 is easier

 going from 8 to 2D4+1/2d4+3 is even easier.

going from 8 to 2D3+4 is easier still

 

 

[Simulacrum]

I'm working up to trying random armour values - running an ancient setting, the armour is always very partial, even on those locations where does cover. Lots of exposed areas still. Also using Mythras rather than BRP standard damage - so it doesn't escalate with specials and crits. I think random armour may be very effective (and loved Stormbringer).

[Nozbat]

That's all good advice @Atgxtg.. I think my players see the bigger picture (mostly). They're shy of combat being merchants and finding the opponents so far as grizzled mercenaries whose combat skills are (allegedly) much better than theirs. If there's been combat, they tend to use ambush. 

They are never going to be able to afford proofed armour anyways so it won't be an issue for a while. 

I recall Palladium did a book in the 80s on armour values for most armour types (very ancient to Maximilian Ribbed Plate). The armour had resistance factors (RF) to (I think) slash, stab and impact. I remember being shocked at how little even the best armour protected from impact damage from something like a mace. I would see Black Powder weapons as very focused impact weapons. 

I think that's a reasonable suggestion @Simulacrum for partial armour which is also the issue in the Early Modern period as the 'Age of Chivalry' came to an end with the last Knights battle at the Battle of Soltau in 1519. This is the start of my current campaign, where the not so famous de Kveelder cousins, Benedikt and Theo, were killed in the rout and precipitated the death from the Bloody Flux of their father, Issak. From there came tragic consequences. But that is another tale.

Mythras has lower damage for weapons but also has the Special effects which are pretty lethal. Players though always have the option of using Hero Points to avert serious damage.