Argrath and Eurmal- What does it mean?

[Scorus]

Jeff has said several times that Argrath declares his support for Eurmal and encourages them to come out from hiding (not exact language, obviously!). So what does that mean? How did that change the way that they are perceived and treated (over time and by some, at least)? Are they no longer scapegoated? Are they now subject to the clan/tribe/Sartar laws?

And what was the societal effect of this change? Did membership increase? Did more shrines go up (or at least become known)? Did the Eurmali reduce the number of murders, rapes, thefts, etc. that they did? Was there an individual Eurmali that grew to become a well-known exemplar of the religion, similar to a Minaryth Blue or Abelard Elf-friend?

Argrath is about to take power in my game and I have an Eurmal player, so am very interested in playing this change out. Thanks.

[French Desperate WindChild]

13 minutes ago, Scorus said:

Argrath declares his support for Eurmal and encourages them to come out from hiding

As I understand it, there are in orlanthi culture two types of eurmali :

1) those who are "official"; they are bound to an Orlanthi (clan leader, or at least enough powerful to protect them) these Orlanthi are accountable to their clan (or tribe) for anything the Eurmali does

2) those who are "underground"; they have no protector (or no master, depending on who could talk). I think Argrath wants these guys to become official.

Probably to gain the incredible powers these fools may offer to his purpose. I think Eurmali are mandatory if he wants to change the world : breaking/changing the rules of the compromise is impossible if you are only with peole who follow the already known paths.

In the same way that a lot of priests of any god create a very powerful effect that a lone priest cannot obtain, a lot of Eurmali should be mandatory to break the compromise

I m not sure these "new official" Eurmali will change their behavior (except their new obligations to their patron let them less time to do their own business), but at least, now there is someone who can pay for the damage they cause. I think that is the main societal effect (before Argrath become more than a hero)

[Geoff R Evil]

In my game, my pol Joni players came to Pavis after Argrath left to go to Sartar. One of them is an Eurmali.

For me it meant that many thieves and low life’s found it politic to join Eurmal to show their Orlanthi devotion whilst basically continuing their larceny. One aspect of this was that the destroyed seven mothers temple became an Eurmali temple, which welcomed minstrels and magicians, but its leaders wisely kept most thieves out as much as possible. What better way to show contempt for the ousted lunars? That said of course thieves use Eurmal as a cover and semblance of societal acceptance.

of course now Argrath has left the Pavis council is keen to see it close down fast….but that’s an upcoming adventure I have in mind, it will be fun to see what the PC Eurmali does as he sees the machinations unfold.

So my short answer is….to be decided, but change in society is an inevitable consequence, just have to figure out exactly how.

Edited May 27 by Geoff R Evil

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

As I understand it, there are in orlanthi culture two types of eurmali :

1) those who are "official"; they are bound to an Orlanthi (clan leader, or at least enough powerful to protect them) these Orlanthi are accountable to their clan (or tribe) for anything the Eurmali does

2) those who are "underground"; they have no protector (or no master, depending on who could talk). I think Argrath wants these guys to become official.

There is such a thing as clown societies - bands of Trickster-entertainers with enough potential of retaliatoral disruption that they are left alone as a group. Single tricksters from that group might still fall afoul enraged mobs or authorities when caught in flagrante delicto.

Argrath's warlocks are a similar form of organisation, and a good portion of tricksters are absorbed by them. The warlocks are a different kind of crazy and disruptive, giving the Eurmali among them a different outlet. Whether this brainwashes them (e.g. through illumination/draconic enlightenment) is another point to debate.

[EricW]

An Argrath trickster army would be terrifying.

For example, can you imagine the impact on Lunar logistics of hundreds of tricksters dressed in Lunar army uniforms armed with multiple lie spells? Especially if the second wave of tricksters posed as messengers from central command carrying instructions for new secure communication protocols to counter enemy sabotage attempts?

[French Desperate WindChild]

50 minutes ago, EricW said:

An Argrath trickster army would be terrifying.

For example, can you imagine the impact on Lunar logistics of hundreds of tricksters dressed in Lunar army uniforms armed with multiple lie spells? Especially if the second wave of tricksters posed as messengers from central command carrying instructions for new secure communication protocols to counter enemy sabotage attempts?

the issue is ... Will you trust your own army then ?

How can you be sure that

1) there are not some (even few, maybe all) tricksters who will betray their pairs, or just make some tricks and then not only disturb but thwarth their march ?

2) there are not some (even few, maybe all) who will decide to "elevate" your own potential, train your capacity to resist, test your ability to react the unexpectd ? We know that six gods were unable to drive one (even if some say this one does it for their own good and the safety of the quest....)

If I were Argrath, I will not let any tricksters without at least 10 trustable people (10+1 = the eleven lights...)

Of course you can (I would say you must*) take the risk to send one trickster on a mission. Maybe two... But much ?

* if you don't show them how good they are ... you risk a revolt too imo 😛 

[Akhôrahil]

3 hours ago, EricW said:

An Argrath trickster army would be terrifying.

For example, can you imagine the impact on Lunar logistics of hundreds of tricksters dressed in Lunar army uniforms armed with multiple lie spells? Especially if the second wave of tricksters posed as messengers from central command carrying instructions for new secure communication protocols to counter enemy sabotage attempts?

The problem is that your Trickster(s) will betray you. This will likely get you killed on a battlefield.

Although Argrath managed to channel this by getting the big betrayal just when he wanted it: "Oh noes, my Trickster got the gods killed, and I had absolutely nothing to do with it!"

Edited May 30 by Akhôrahil

[EricW]

14 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

The problem is that your Trickster(s) will betray you. This will likely get you killed on a battlefield.

Although Argrath managed to channel this by getting the big betrayal just when he wanted it: "Oh noes, my Trickster got the gods killed, and I had absolutely nothing to do with it!"

I think of them more as an area effect weapon - round them up in a compound guarded by people who can't speak their language, use shamen to train up their power, find a lie shrine so they magic up, dress them in Lunar military uniforms, then put sleeping drops in their free beer, drug them all unconscious and transport them in wagons under hay bales, dump them all inside the glow line, as near as possible to military bases.

They'll be woken up and accused of desertion, but they can probably lie their way out of it 🙂. 

Edited May 31 by EricW

[Scorus]

On 5/27/2024 at 4:27 PM, French Desperate WindChild said:

2) those who are "underground"; they have no protector (or no master, depending on who could talk). I think Argrath wants these guys to become official.

Probably to gain the incredible powers these fools may offer to his purpose. I think Eurmali are mandatory if he wants to change the world : breaking/changing the rules of the compromise is impossible if you are only with peole who follow the already known paths

The trichotomy of bound-hidden-lynched from KoS has evolved recently to include the public-but-not-bound clown societies mentioned by others. Jeff has talked about them many times.

All that said, if an unbound, hidden Eurmal becomes "official", what does that mean? Being Eurmal, based on Greg's encyclopedic knowledge of anthropological trickster theory, are able to violate clan/tribe/kingdom/temple/etc. law with no consequences but are also not at all protected by those same laws. How does that change? Are they now beholden to the law? Are they now protected by it? If not, then what is the change that allows someone that is always scapegoated, and frequently guilty, who can be killed or whatever with no consequences to shed their disguise?

And I am in NO way arguing that this shouldn't or couldn't happen, for the very reason you state! I'm just wondering what change Argrath makes that unleashes the greater wave of change that Eurmali will bring.

[Eagle Talon]

On 5/27/2024 at 3:56 PM, Scorus said:

And what was the societal effect of this change? Did membership increase? Did more shrines go up (or at least become known)? Did the Eurmali reduce the number of murders, rapes, thefts, etc. that they did? Was there an individual Eurmali that grew to become a well-known exemplar of the religion, similar to a Minaryth Blue or Abelard Elf-friend?

Elusu the Trickster. From the Glorantha sourcebook:

Elusu: Silver-tongued liar, murderess, toad, madwoman, and villainess are all titles given to Argrath’s Trickster. Believed to be an outlawed and mount-less Praxian, Elusu is the lon- gest serving of Argrath’s Companions, having joined him during the years of exile in the Wastes. She claims the title of Trickster High Priest and is under the personal protection of Prince Argrath; a protection she abuses terribly.

[French Desperate WindChild]

9 hours ago, Scorus said:

How does that change?

Their patron, an Orlanthi is now responsible 

so their acts have impact. The main difference, as I understand, is the trickster is accountable to their Orlanthi patron and the Orlanthi patron is accountable to the clan

If it is « too much » « too often » the Orlanthi may break the bound and then, his protection (so back to a outlaw status for our eurmali) that’s an important point : the official (of course that is not the right term) eurmali has to take care of their patron wishes (and sometimes ignore them ) they cannot do all they want until…

and of course one day the eurmali may betray their boss. 

 

10 hours ago, Scorus said:

I'm just wondering what change Argrath makes that unleashes the greater wave of change that Eurmali will bring.

Another question for you :

is Argrath the voluntary source of the change ? Or is it the fool plan of Elusu ?

or just some random idea from Argrath the munchkin who thought that with  the power of so many guys he cannot lose ?

[Scorus]

On 6/1/2024 at 8:57 PM, Eagle Talon said:

Elusu: Silver-tongued liar, murderess, toad, madwoman, and villainess are all titles given to Argrath’s Trickster. Believed to be an outlawed and mount-less Praxian, Elusu is the lon- gest serving of Argrath’s Companions, having joined him during the years of exile in the Wastes. She claims the title of Trickster High Priest and is under the personal protection of Prince Argrath; a protection she abuses terribly.

Oh yes, the players have met Elusu! But first they met Argrath with illusions making him look and sound like Elusu, so he could test them without them knowing it was him.

[Scorus]

On 6/2/2024 at 3:44 AM, French Desperate WindChild said:

Their patron, an Orlanthi is now responsible so their acts have impact. The main difference, as I understand, is the trickster is accountable to their Orlanthi patron and the Orlanthi patron is accountable to the clan

If it is « too much » « too often » the Orlanthi may break the bound and then, his protection (so back to a outlaw status for our eurmali) that’s an important point : the official (of course that is not the right term) eurmali has to take care of their patron wishes (and sometimes ignore them ) they cannot do all they want until…

and of course one day the eurmali may betray their boss. 

...

is Argrath the voluntary source of the change ? Or is it the fool plan of Elusu ?

or just some random idea from Argrath the munchkin who thought that with  the power of so many guys he cannot lose ?

So he is requiring they all be bound to an Orlanthi now? That would be a change!

I have used Black Spear to set Argrath within a context of Eurmali, so it will be him making the change but it is after a lifetime of being influenced, served, and betrayed by tricksters.

[French Desperate WindChild]

15 minutes ago, Scorus said:

So he is requiring they all be bound to an Orlanthi now?

I imagine that "official" = "bound" , and there is the third part as you said (and I hadn't in mind):  the society. But in a potential way that this "official" societies may be created / directed /... by Argrath (or Elusu)