RQG Design Intent behind Spell Balancing

[davecake]

22 hours ago, Aurelius said:

Thanks for notifying the difference in the Red Book of Magic -- Chaosium clearly added some Trance to Axe Trance, and the intent of doing that is very clear to me. But it's still insanely powerful spell even when used casually.

It's also noted in the chapter by chapter notes in the Well of Daliath. 

22 hours ago, Aurelius said:

But it's still insanely powerful spell even when used casually.

Yes.

Interestingly, Axe Trance actually predates RQG, it was in Gods of Glorantha. But high weapon skill levels were far less significant in RQ3. 

Adding Sword Trance to Humakt was a clever change IMO - in RQ3 Humakt had Berserk, but many people disliked the idea of Honourable Humakt killing indiscriminately. Sword Trance gives them an equivalent spell, to match the number of major warrior cults with Berserk or <weapon> Trance (or, in the case of Babeester Gor, both!), but avoids the objections to Berserk. 

22 hours ago, Aurelius said:

Then again some things have been fixed, like Invisibility now being a 3p Rune Spell instead of being the funnily powerful 3p Spirit Spell it once was.

I think that was an RQ3 change? But agreed.

22 hours ago, Aurelius said:

What other Stacking Limits do you use? 

I don't really think of it as a Stacking Limit. The spell has a potentially enormous effect, as it puts no limits on your skill. I think it makes <weapon> Trance (a 1 pt spell that also requires many magic points) on a roughly equivalent level to Berserk (2 pt spell which potentially doubles skill, and has other useful effects), Arrow Trance (always doubles skill), and various others. 

22 hours ago, Aurelius said:

I'm not fond of hard caps ("No Spirit Magic above 5") and I'm not fond of vaguely hiding caps behind vague lack of access ("No Shaman or Priest will ever teach you Bladesharp-6").

I'm not fond of hard caps, but I'm not fond of exponential spell effects either (which are inevitably powerful enough they have world changing effects), so it is a useful compromise. Caps behind lack of access is fine by me, it's a soft cap that can be as soft as you'd like in play. What needs to be done to get past that cap is up to you, maybe they just have to meet a particular powerful NPC who has access. 

 

[Akhôrahil]

4 minutes ago, Malin said:

I think I am just sad that blast earth doesn't cover a larger area... 😞

Fortunately, it’s completely possible to create a global (cubic?) earthquake. 🙂

[Malin]

Missile weapons are really nice against sword trance/axe trance. Impala riders are a real threat against my Babeester Gor. Hmm. Come to think of it, I think she has only used Axe Trance twice. It limits your versatility so much that it's rarely worth the risk.

[Akhôrahil]

4 minutes ago, Malin said:

Missile weapons are really nice against sword trance/axe trance. Impala riders are a real threat against my Babeester Gor. Hmm. Come to think of it, I think she has only used Axe Trance twice. It limits your versatility so much that it's rarely worth the risk.

The case where it just utterly dominates is in controlled settings, like a duel. It makes me sad that the deciding factor in every Humakti duel is how much MP storage each competitor can scrounge up - it completely dominates all other factors.

If anyone in my game had Trance spells, I would have to houserule it to a straight doubling instead.

Edited Thursday at 03:09 PM by Akhôrahil

[Joerg]

9 minutes ago, Malin said:

I think I am just sad that blast earth doesn't cover a larger area... 😞

It may take a coven of dark earth witches to do so on a larger scale.

[Malin]

Obviously, the solution is to have a nice form to fill out before you duel so you can make sure that everything is as fair and balanced as it can be, and what kind of magic could be used or not. That's the only way to be fair!

Application for a Permit of Settlement of Differences by Force of Arms.pdf

[davecake]

22 hours ago, Aurelius said:

Valind is one of the cults that have always made me sad, and he still is. Written for MGF, he could be an amazingly awesome alternate god for a bit more magic-oriented Orlanthi players.... but Decrease Temperature, Frost, and Increase Wind all suffer from uselessness.

The attack magic of Valind are mostly summonings - Air elementals and Hollri. But only Medium Elementals, which are only ok. I'd allow Increase Wind to increase the STR of Air elementals, but it still isn't very useful. Taken together, their spells can be potentially interesting in a few situations, and can be usefully combined, but are generally very niche, only useful to attack in longer term ways, like making your enemies freeze overnight to soften them up. The other issue with Valind is that becoming a Priest is kind of suicidal - if you don't roll under your hit points x3, you die. Given that hard core attitude, you'd think they'd have more dangerous magic. 

 

21 hours ago, radmonger said:

With several RQ:G spells doubling effective skill, this leads to a situation where a fight with an reasonably elite opponent and a trollkin have the same, albeit small, chance of defeat.

And then there is Morale, which is only x 1.5 skill, but has no downsides and is cast on an entire regiment. So that is the new baseline. To stop Humakt being absolutely dominating in warfare, I assume many others have access to similar powers - few have the Runespell (though its not exclusive to Humakt, Yanafals Tarnils has it, and in the gods book draft the Granite Phalanx (a subculture of Polaris) had it, for example), but many have access to it or a similar effect, by some means, such as a wyter power or regimental spirit, a mighty treasure (a famous magical battle banner), etc. 

[davecake]

20 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

It makes me sad that the deciding factor in every Humakti duel is how much MP storage each competitor can scrounge up - it completely dominates all other factors.

That is exactly why I house ruled it to doubling skill as a limit - I wanted skill to be the ultimate limit. 

21 minutes ago, Akhôrahil said:

If anyone in my game had Trance spells, I would have to houserule it to a straight doubling instead.

A straight doubling for 2 pts doesn't seem too badly balanced compared to similar spells, but it would be crazy good for 1 pt. 

[Akhôrahil]

10 minutes ago, davecake said:

That is exactly why I house ruled it to doubling skill as a limit - I wanted skill to be the ultimate limit. 

A straight doubling for 2 pts doesn't seem too badly balanced compared to similar spells, but it would be crazy good for 1 pt. 

Arrowtrance is a two-pointer, correct? Seems like the better design.

[davecake]

17 hours ago, Aurelius said:

The question I find myself asking is ... "in my Glorantha, are the Humakti and the Babeesteri best known for their immaculate performance in trance, like the Uroxi are best known for their blind berserking rage", and I find myself answering no.

Maybe Humakti are known for Sword Trance. 

The Babeester Gor Ladies are maddeningly versatile, and are not known for a single tactic - they can choose to use Axe Trance and be focussed on killing everything they should (most effective with a 2H axe, which their Rune Ladies must master), use Berserk and probably kill everything they should and maybe few other things they shouldn't (most effective with 1H axe, which they also must master, and an off hand weapon), or fight defensively with Earth Shield on your shield, and still be really dangerous (you won't have a massive boost to axe skill, but you can still boost its damage a lot if you want). Sometimes they are bloody berserks, sometimes pragmatic and efficient war leaders (they are often masters of Battle), sometimes they are methodical and (literally) silent stalkers right up until they track you down and kill everyone in the room. 

FWIW my BG character only used Berserk occasionally, and unless you specialise and invest a lot of resources in learning an off hand weapon, it is usually easiest to just stick with 1H axe and also bashing things with your shield, which you probably have a much higher percentage in. And while you can't parry with a shield, you can still use it passively while charging into missile fire. And I like the idea that Berserks still have a use for a shield, as gnawing on your shield until you foam at the mouth is a classic berserker motif. 

[Rodney Dangerduck]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

The Babeester Gor Ladies are maddeningly versatile

Our resident power-gamer decided that his Humakti wasn't tough enough, and switched to a Babeester Gor.  🙂

In addition to all the great spells you note, including Earth Shield, they also have Heal Body, very effective in a fight.

[Akhôrahil]

16 minutes ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Our resident power-gamer decided that his Humakti wasn't tough enough, and switched to a Babeester Gor.  🙂

In addition to all the great spells you note, including Earth Shield, they also have Heal Body, very effective in a fight.

Truesword is better economy but has a much lower power cap than Slash.

[Aurelius]

5 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

Maran Gor’s spell selection rocks. Fissure is just unbelievably useful, and Quake Earth is magnificent and surprisingly cheap for a mass area effect, especially sieges. Blast Earth is perhaps more useful as a threat, but it’s an excellent threat. Yes, something for Mace combat would be great, though - MG does not belong in melee with the current stuff. Crush, perhaps?

Okay, I reread and I stand corrected, it rocks. 

I'd like more specificity in how Shake Earth works when stacked, but its great. And I wish Blast Earth had the same target area, because it takes Blast Earth-3 to get rid of my late grandma's backyard potatoes and if your tomatoes are in a row, Create Fissure-1 beats Blast Earth-2. 😄 

(I wonder if any PC has ever in the history of Runequest learned to cast Blast Earth and then used it for its described purpose according to the written rules.)

I don't think Maran Gor is a great PC Cult, but it is a Truly Great NPC Cult, and that's easily enough in my book. I'm totally fine with Voria and Barntar being useless as PC Cults, its the lost potential of greatness that makes me type into internet!

[Aurelius]

4 hours ago, davecake said:

Interestingly, Axe Trance actually predates RQG, it was in Gods of Glorantha. But high weapon skill levels were far less significant in RQ3. 

I guess this settles it then! Left hand changed how very high skills work, right hand picked up Axe Trance and added it to RQG, and added Sword Trance too, and the outcome is silly. 

I would have nerfed it to oblivion in an errata or the Red Book, but I guess Chaosium policy (kinda design intent) is to keep stuff as is. 

[Aurelius]

4 hours ago, davecake said:

The attack magic of Valind are mostly summonings - Air elementals and Hollri. But only Medium Elementals, which are only ok. I'd allow Increase Wind to increase the STR of Air elementals, but it still isn't very useful. Taken together, their spells can be potentially interesting in a few situations, and can be usefully combined, but are generally very niche, only useful to attack in longer term ways, like making your enemies freeze overnight to soften them up. The other issue with Valind is that becoming a Priest is kind of suicidal - if you don't roll under your hit points x3, you die. Given that hard core attitude, you'd think they'd have more dangerous magic. 

Yeah, the Hollri are pretty insane and I love the Ice Points mechanic. Buut... practically speaking, binding them requires a 6-point enchantment, and with 2d6+12 POW it is not easy fun time to either put them in a box or to send them against your enemies ex tempore. 

(Speaking of caps, I'm glad there's a Binding Limit now.)  

[davecake]

15 hours ago, Rodney Dangerduck said:

In addition to all the great spells you note, including Earth Shield, they also have Heal Body, very effective in a fight.

The great thing is even though it is a top rank healing spell that we think of as Life or Harmony rune magic, BG can cast it with their Earth Rune.

Not so practical for Humakti, unless they just happen to have a really high Earth rune (the Feathered Horse Queen bodyguards maybe?)

And of course, Yanafals Tarnils access to both spells via 7M, but often no easy way to cast it reliably - but has a different trick as well, Illuminates can raise both their Life Rune and Death Rune.

[davecake]

12 hours ago, Aurelius said:

Yeah, the Hollri are pretty insane and I love the Ice Points mechanic. Buut... practically speaking, binding them requires a 6-point enchantment, and with 2d6+12 POW it is not easy fun time to either put them in a box or to send them against your enemies ex tempore. 

I think you often either talk them into it and/or pay them somehow. Perhaps they want to use some of environmental magic to make things comfier. 

[Shiningbrow]

You know what stops a fully powered up and operational battle station Humakti? One with a full Shield, and Sword Trance, and TrueSword... something that they have absolutely zero counter to??

Dropping your weapon.

Extra points for saying "I surrender". Or saying "Mercy".

And then wait for all of those spells to wear off.

(RAW, they can't do a damn thing about it - and can't even tie you up or stop you from just walking away).

 

Personally, I don't have a problem with uber-large spells, knowing that a) they're very difficult to get, b) difficult to get off, and c) there's always someone bigger and nastier than you. Also, because they're hard to get, most people in Glorantha will never get them, or even know how to get them. And, once you've got that spell and been seen using it (even just the threads of magic all over the plane), those bigger and nastier will get to hear of it - so not only are they out there, they'll actively come looking for you.

 

ETA: Besides which, there's nothing stopping anyone from simply running away (for 15 minutes). Or simply getting into a position the Humakti can't get to (like, being up on a wall or tree). Even being on the other side of a deep river or stream can really screw with them. (and that's without Crack-ing their sword). So, if you've got a Humakti and they're about to go up against some opponent(s) who are no match for them, as a GM you'd be insane to have them just hang around and get killed.

Edited Friday at 12:53 PM by Shiningbrow

[Shiningbrow]

On 6/27/2024 at 12:29 AM, Aurelius said:

At the cost of 4RP you more-or-less get to keep the effect on until you regain the points.

No, you don't.

RBoM has it clearly stated that the RPs for Extension - and the spell it's powering - do not come back until after the spell has expired.

 

On 6/27/2024 at 1:45 AM, radmonger said:

Rules as written, you normally can't cast a rune spell that is more powerful than your CHA, because that is the maximum size of a Rune Pool.

Although you wrote 'normally', the exceptions are things like Enchantments. (and possibly Wyters).

However, given the discussion we're having, there's a relatively easy work around - Charisma (the spell, not the stat). And since Babs initiates will have no problem joining Ernalda, they'll get that so easily. Humakti have a slightly harder time if your GM is really stringent on "Associated Cults", but otherwise they could just pop up a Glamour anyway for a few extra points.

 

On 6/27/2024 at 1:17 PM, General Confusion said:

But that means she stood still chanting and glowing for two full melee rounds while funnelling the magic equivalent of two entire human souls into a spell and nobody did anything about it. Given how fast, lethal, and trump card-centric RQ combat is, if they manage to do that they probably won't!

You seem to be adding in something that's not in the rules - there's nothing that suggests that you need to stand there and do nothing else but pump up the jam MPs for that time, and do nothing else. I would have thought that at most tables, you pop the spell, go about your business, and then wait for it to take effect later.

 

On 6/27/2024 at 6:13 AM, Aurelius said:

The question I find myself asking is ... "in my Glorantha, are the Humakti and the Babeesteri best known for their immaculate performance in trance, like the Uroxi are best known for their blind berserking rage", and I find myself answering no.

This makes me ask you - how do you envision a 'trance' working? They are certainly best known for being consummate warriors that you never ever ever want to tangle with if you know what's good for you.... And, IRL, those people do seem like they're in a trance when in combat. (be it weapons weapons or just unarmed combat). They're aware of what's going on, but focussed entirely on the battle.

 

On 6/27/2024 at 1:17 PM, General Confusion said:

Crack can instantly delete an opponent's weapon, rendering them much less dangerous

True - but who's got Crack???

[Shiningbrow]

On 6/27/2024 at 7:05 PM, Aurelius said:

Buuuut... I didn't do the math, but I suspect that an Orlanthi initiate regains more RP per year than Chief Priest-Lords of most cults. Not only do they have the 7*5 extra minor Holy Days, but also some 18 Associate Cults.

Buuuut.... They can only get RPs back during High or Seasonal holy days... IF they participate in the worship ceremony. That's a LOT of time not doing what they should be.

(just to also point out - Ernalda initiates are doing the same - and most women in the general Dragon Pass area and down into Holy Country will be at least initiates of her... Orlanth, as Orlanth, gets passed off as Barntar, so doesn't usually get all those Associated cult holy days).

But otherwise, yes, that would be true....

[Shiningbrow]

On 6/27/2024 at 1:43 PM, Rodney Dangerduck said:

Earth Shield is pricey but amazing.  Crit by a Giant?  Sorry evil GM, I parried, "tink".

You're forgetting that they'll go flying back quite a ways and take all that damage that said shield isn't going to stop.

[David Scott]

1 hour ago, Shiningbrow said:

True - but who's got Crack???

See: Rune Magic by Cult and Associate Cult – C

[radmonger]

2 hours ago, Shiningbrow said:

Buuuut.... They can only get RPs back during High or Seasonal holy days... IF they participate in the worship ceremony. That's a LOT of time not doing what they should be.

The most recently-published version of the rules says:

Quote

Rune points must be restored through successful worship in one’s cult temple (or that of an associated cult), usually restoring 1D6 or more Rune points. Unless a reason suggests itself otherwise, it is usually easiest to assume all Rune point are restored between seasons.

I prefer that to the old RQ:G rules in this area. Which for me contains what is to me a lot of fiddly and pointless detail. Not really useful for play, with a table that you can;t reasonably memorize, and so will take 3 minutes to find when you need to look it up.  But also not thought through well enough to use to extrapolate the setting.

This the detail that associated cult initiates don't get the benefit of non-seasonal worship ceremonies comes from there. As far as I am concerned, that has gone away.

In a city, every initiate is going to be attending at a weekly worship ceremony at a usable temple or shrine. 

In a clan, that becomes 'almost every'. Initiates of exotic cults not associated with Orlanth or Ernalda likely have to contribute to maintaining their own shrine or site.

In the wilderness, visiting a city, clan or known holy site to replenish resources becomes something you probably want to do.

 

[Shiningbrow]

1 hour ago, David Scott said:

See: Rune Magic by Cult and Associate Cult – C

Sorry, that was a rhetorical question... Meaning, it's not likely to come up too often (except when there's lots of Chaos around... (because there's even fewer Eurmalis around who have it).

[General Confusion]

On 6/28/2024 at 5:49 AM, Shiningbrow said:

You seem to be adding in something that's not in the rules - there's nothing that suggests that you need to stand there and do nothing else but pump up the jam MPs for that time, and do nothing else. I would have thought that at most tables, you pop the spell, go about your business, and then wait for it to take effect later.

 

 

I honestly never even considered this interpretation; as far as I am aware there's no magic in Runequest that you cast, walk away from, and then wait to have it take effect a few rounds later. When you perform magic it takes some amount of time - which is spent actively engaged in casting it - and then it either happens or it doesn't at the end of the process, AFAIK.

 

So there are two reasonably valid interpretations I can see, because unfortunately I don't think it's ever clearly defined what 'boosting' means to Rune spells, time-wise. Either you take the rules in another section regarding boosting with MP and apply them - in which case each MP would add +1 to the Strike Rank of the spell, which is my preferred choice - or you decide that the statement 'Rune magic spells always take effect at strike rank 1' on pg 314 overrides and boosting a Rune spell takes no time, no matter how many MP you put into it.

 

If you decide to go with the second interpretation, then obviously spells like Sword Trance are much more powerful because they aren't possible to interrupt. 

Edited Saturday at 03:14 PM by General Confusion