rules on parry question

[Thac0Redeye]

our group recently switched to RQ after playing DND 3.5 for decades.   the base rule book refences under two weapon fighting that you can either hit with both or hit with one and parry with the other.  so with that in mind its saying that if you parry with a weapon in a round you can't attack with it.  but this is the only place i can find that mentioned.  So what does that mean if you only have one weapon?  or a single two handed weapon?  If so, where is this rule in the book?  Pages would be helpful.  thanks 

 

[Jason D]

We (hopefully) explained this a bit better in one of our Rune Fixes. 

https://www.chaosium.com/content/FreePDFs/RuneQuest/Rune Fixes/RQ - Rune Fixes 2.pdf

[Nick Brooke]

I think you're asking if the special rules for two-weapon fighting overwrite the normal rules for attacking and parrying with weapons. They don't: any rules in that section only apply if you are fighting with two weapons. The normal rule is stated at the top of page 197 of the RuneQuest core rulebook: "Fist or fencepost, a weapon is any object used by an adventurer to do damage to a target. An adventurer may attack and parry with the same weapon in the same melee round."

That applies whether it's one-handed or two-handed.

[Mugen]

On 6/27/2024 at 3:13 AM, Thac0Redeye said:

our group recently switched to RQ after playing DND 3.5 for decades.   the base rule book refences under two weapon fighting that you can either hit with both or hit with one and parry with the other.  so with that in mind its saying that if you parry with a weapon in a round you can't attack with it.  but this is the only place i can find that mentioned.  So what does that mean if you only have one weapon?  or a single two handed weapon?  If so, where is this rule in the book?  Pages would be helpful.  thanks 

 

That rule is in fact more or less a leftover from previous editions, and should be ignored...

The real rule is :

-You can parry and dodge as many times as you want, but each parry and dodge suffers a -20% per previous parry or dodge attempt ;

-You can attack once with each weapon, if you have enough SRs. To know the SR of your second attack, add the SR of both weapons ;

-If your attack % is > to 100, you can split it to attack twice, once at weapon SR and once at SR+3 (IIRC) ;

-Your skill with your second weapon is a completely different skill than your skill with your main weapon, and starts at (Weapon base+bonus).

[Geoff R Evil]

not sure if it’s mentioned in the rules, but in my game, we add one more common sense addition. You cannot attack and parry with the same weapon in the same SR. (So this applies to wielding a Two handed weapon or a single one handed weapon.

The parrying person can choose to delay their attack by a SR in order to parry then attack.

[Jens]

1 minute ago, Geoff R Evil said:

You cannot attack and parry with the same weapon in the same SR.

This was the rule in RQ3. RQ:G got rid of it for simplicity's sake.

[Kloster]

13 hours ago, Geoff R Evil said:

not sure if it’s mentioned in the rules, but in my game, we add one more common sense addition. You cannot attack and parry with the same weapon in the same SR. (So this applies to wielding a Two handed weapon or a single one handed weapon.

The parrying person can choose to delay their attack by a SR in order to parry then attack.

 

13 hours ago, Jens said:

This was the rule in RQ3. RQ:G got rid of it for simplicity's sake.

Yes, this was the RQ3 rule, but it was removed not for simplicity, but because Chaosium went back to RQ2, where SR are a measure of initiative, not of time spent. Both methods have advantages and disadvantages, but I don't think simplicity is one of them (in either direction).

[Geoff R Evil]

Works for all the players across three games I play in or run. YGMV.

 

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, Geoff R Evil said:

Works for all the players across three games I play in or run. YGMV.

 

Works also for me because I reverted to RQ3 combat rules. This is one of the few parts of RQG I don't like (or, more properly, I prefer the previous version).

[Mordante]

19 hours ago, Jens said:

This was the rule in RQ3. RQ:G got rid of it for simplicity's sake.

This could go someway to give a reason to use a shield rather than parry with a weapon.

[Geoff R Evil]

Agree @Mordante, if you like the crunch of combat, sword and board starts to make more sense when you can always parry at the same time as you attack. In fact if the sword and board person is faster then the 2 handed weapon person, you can imagine they may delay their attack until the two handed weapon person attacks, then attack at the same moment, thus giving them no chance to parry….you might want to rule they need a superior dex to manage this, or maybe a opposed dex roll, making the combat more crunchy, but I enjoy that aspect of RQ. The gritty realism is something I enjoy. And if you and your group get familiar with the rules it all flows pretty well and fast enough, for me anyway. I can completely understand those that prefer more role play over roll play, I just like both.

[Goldennose]

A friend of mine came up with a homerule idea, that I think is a cool one. Even if we don't use it in our own games.

He invented an idea that, if the attacking weapon is the same as the one used in parry, there is a -10% penalty to parrying.

I think this is a great idea, and makes the use of a shield more valuable. Then again, I don't use it. We try to only use the rules as they are.

Edited July 3 by Goldennose

[Kloster]

23 minutes ago, Goldennose said:

He invented an idea that, if the attacking weapon is the same as the one used in parry, there is a -10% penalty to parrying.

I can't answer for a game application of this rule, but after 12 years of fencing, I can say this is not realistic: I had a few run with 1 of the 3 fencing weapons versus an opponent that used another (because of disagreement and bickering about which one is better) and I can say it is easier to parry when your opponent is using the same weapon as yourself.

[French Desperate WindChild]

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

I can't answer for a game application of this rule, but after 12 years of fencing, I can say this is not realistic: I had a few run with 1 of the 3 fencing weapons versus an opponent that used another (because of disagreement and bickering about which one is better) and I can say it is easier to parry when your opponent is using the same weapon as yourself.

my english level is not very good (as every one knows 😛 ) but I did not understand the same thing than you. I understood " if you use the same weapon to parry and to attack then you get a -10%"

not "if you attack with a weapon and your opponent has the same weapon, then there is a -10%"

[PhilHibbs]

12 hours ago, Geoff R Evil said:

...you can imagine they may delay their attack until the two handed weapon person attacks, then attack at the same moment, thus giving them no chance to parry….you might want to rule they need a superior dex to manage this, or maybe a opposed dex roll, making the combat more crunchy, but I enjoy that aspect of RQ.

I think that's a function of character skill, rather than one of player use of the RQ game mechanics. Glorantha is not divided into uniform 12-second time periods.

[Kloster]

3 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

my english level is not very good (as every one knows 😛 ) but I did not understand the same thing than you. I understood " if you use the same weapon to parry and to attack then you get a -10%"

not "if you attack with a weapon and your opponent has the same weapon, then there is a -10%"

It also can be understood that way. But in that case, it is even worse, because it is VERY difficult to parry and attack at the same time with the same weapon. For me, the modifier should be at least -50%.

Edited July 3 by Kloster
typing mistake

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Kloster said:

It also can be understood that way. But in that case, it is even worse, because it is VERY difficult to parry and attack at the same time with the same weapon. For me, the modifier should be at least -50%.

When you're fighting there's never an alarm that goes of that says you have to attack at that moment, and you can't anticipate an enemy's next attack by counting to twelve.

Making SR a unit of time very much resembles a deliberate attempt to make combat less realistic, with workarounds to try and fix the problems created.

[Kloster]

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

you can't anticipate an enemy's next attack by counting to twelve

Agreed. But experience can help you find when and how (approximately) your opponent will attack. I was bad at this game, and thus was a bad defender.

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

When you're fighting there's never an alarm that goes of that says you have to attack at that moment

You never practiced fencing, don't you. There's a lot of small alarms that tell you 'now' or 'not now'. I was quite good at that game and this is why I was quite a good attacker.

3 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

Making SR a unit of time very much resembles a deliberate attempt to make combat less realistic, with workarounds to try and fix the problems created.

It makes movement more realistic (at least for me) and cause some problems, and solve some others with combat. For me, it's positive.

[French Desperate WindChild]

5 hours ago, Kloster said:

But in that case, it is even worse, because it is VERY difficult to parry and attack at the same time with the same weapon. For me, the modifier should be at least -50%.

that something I have no experience, and it is interesting. But in that case, what could be a good "model" (even if too complex)

Does that mean, depending on weapon's ENC (or any weight/size/ ... dimension) , it is more or less difficult to "change" (aka I planned to attack, I started my move but 1 "action step" before the end of my attack I detected something and the choice was between parrying (and cancel the attack) and continue my attack, even if I risk to be hit ?

 

[Kloster]

31 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

But in that case, what could be a good "model" (even if too complex)

Without becoming too complex, I think RQ3's rule is correct: Impossible to attack and parry with the same weapon at the same SR.

33 minutes ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

Does that mean, depending on weapon's ENC (or any weight/size/ ... dimension) , it is more or less difficult to "change"

IRL, the heavier your weapon, the harder it is to change anything, and I am speaking of weapons weights between 500g (foil and sabre) and 770g (epee). I have almost no experience with heavier weapons (2 or 3 sessions with a roman gladius and 1 with a medieval sword).

[PhilHibbs]

2 hours ago, Kloster said:

You never practiced fencing, don't you. There's a lot of small alarms that tell you 'now' or 'not now'. I was quite good at that game and this is why I was quite a good attacker.

Clues and cues, yes, but not on a timer. That's a function of the character's skill.

[Kloster]

29 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Clues and cues, yes, but not on a timer. That's a function of the character's skill.

Correct.

[Goldennose]

12 hours ago, French Desperate WindChild said:

my english level is not very good (as every one knows 😛 ) but I did not understand the same thing than you. I understood " if you use the same weapon to parry and to attack then you get a -10%"

not "if you attack with a weapon and your opponent has the same weapon, then there is a -10%"

Yes. The exact same weapon used to attack and to parry. 

That would be the reason using a shield for parrying was a wise choice. Attack with sword and parry on that other weapon, such as shield. 

[Kloster]

9 hours ago, Goldennose said:

Yes. The exact same weapon used to attack and to parry. 

That would be the reason using a shield for parrying was a wise choice. Attack with sword and parry on that other weapon, such as shield. 

Thanks. That means I misunderstood your first post. In that case, I stand with the second answer: In same SR, -10% is not enough, and I think forbidden is simpler. In different SR, it is not a problem. I repeat that my experience is with fencing, and thus very light, weapons (the heaviest epee must be below 770g) and may be completely wrong with heavier weapons.

[PhilHibbs]

I do feel that there should be some down side to attacking and parrying with the same weapon - other than the risk that you break your only weapon - but just basing it on which SR the parry happens on seems artificial to me. I think in previous editions you couldn't attack and parry with the same 1H weapon, but could with a 2H weapon.

Fencing is too artificial to extrapolate from, clearly people do attack and parry with fencing swords. Also sometimes nothing happens for 15 seconds or more - no attacks, no parries, but I've seen it done several times within a second so the same SR rule clearly doesn't apply to fencing, but like I said, it's a sport not a fight.