Minor gods with important mythic roles

[theconfusingeel]

So I was looking over mythology and I found something interesting in the copper plates; Entekos existed before Umath. Now I know that there's a whole book about her so I can probably find some answers there, but  it made me wonder, what other obscure gods have interesting mythologies?
The other that comes to mind is Heler, mostly because I read some comments by someone on this forum, that said that Heler apperantly was the king of gods before Orlanth freed him from Aroka(who I asume was just Heler in draconic form).
Shargash also has a more important role in blue moon mythology, as Annilla's brother(twin?).

Does anybody else have any other examples?

[metcalph]

The Twin Stars may have been celestial manifestation of the Twins (ie Grower and Maker, cf Glorantha Sourcebook p71-72)

[Nozbat]

As @Joerg recently reminded me.. and paraphrasing the writings of Fritz Leiber … there are the gods of Glorantha and the gods in Glorantha.. 

They are likely to be different and have different aspects depending on the perspective of the viewer

[mfbrandi]

11 hours ago, theconfusingeel said:

Shargash also has a more important role in blue moon mythology, as Annilla’s brother (twin?).

How minor is Shargash–Tolat–Zolan? After all, Zorak Zoran is counted a major god.

Of course, if you were to say to me that league tables of deities are a foolish idea, I might agree.

[theconfusingeel]

2 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

How minor is Shargash–Tolat–Zolan? After all, Zorak Zoran is counted a major god.

Of course, if you were to say to me that league tables of deities are a foolish idea, I might agree.

He's minor by virtue of not having a important cosmological role, he's mentined by name as a minor god

[mfbrandi]

9 hours ago, theconfusingeel said:

he’s mentioned by name as a minor god

And “Zolan” and “Zorak Zoran” is just coincidence? The Sun swallowed by Darkness? The Darkness that swallowed the Sun?

Don’t you sometimes think that the protestations of non-identity — however insistent — are not expected to be taken entirely seriously? I mean, it could hardly be the case that Dendara and Ernalda are not the same because they say they are not. And if Orlanth is a great god, then so is Vinga.

But you are right, I am probably an outlier … eccentric … suitable case for treatment. 😉

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, mfbrandi said:

And “Zolan” and “Zorak Zoran” is just coincidence?

Not to mention Zolan Zubar, an apparent variant of Zorak Zoran, although that probably won't survive the current Chaosium style of minimizing alternate names.

[mfbrandi]

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

Not to mention Zolan Zubar, an apparent variant of Zorak Zoran

A sort of homeopathic dose of our favourite uncle?

• Zolan Zubar fights the Six Foes: undead corpses, possession spirits, spirits of dead people, spirits of death powers, spirits of disease, and curses sent by women. Whenever any of these things threatens a practitioner he can summon Zolan Zubar to fight directly, but the spirit is weak and usually loses. However, it is useful because its presence allows a kolating to perform ceremonies to drive out any of the Six Foes, ceremonies that all Heortlings (including theists) can support.
  — Kolat (unfinished write-up from 2006)

Edited Sunday at 02:43 PM by mfbrandi
trimmed whitespace

[svensson]

Ginna Jar, the 'soul of the clan'

Teelo Nori, 'innocent blood' [The 7Ms picked up a random girl off the streets and used her as a blood sacrifice, the modern 7M cult has absolutely nothing to do with the actual child the 7Ms murdered]

Kolat, the Spirits of Air/Storm

 

[mfbrandi]

On 6/29/2024 at 10:53 AM, theconfusingeel said:

Heler … king of gods before Orlanth freed him from Aroka (who I assume was just Heler in draconic form).

Maybe Orlanth is as much a cut-and-shut as the RG — collecting parts to remake himself as King of the Gods. The union of Heler and Orlanth is closer than sexual, and decapitating the dragon is removing one’s own head, right?

[theconfusingeel]

6 hours ago, mfbrandi said:

And “Zolan” and “Zorak Zoran” is just coincidence? The Sun swallowed by Darkness? The Darkness that swallowed the Sun?

 

Well the irripi ontor description in the lunar way says that celestial gods have equivalents in the underwolrd and on the surface, so Shargash being equivalent to ZZ is intentional, but I don't think they're the same.

[Ian Absentia]

59 minutes ago, theconfusingeel said:

Well the irripi ontor description in the lunar way says that celestial gods have equivalents in the underwolrd and on the surface, so Shargash being equivalent to ZZ is intentional, but I don't think they're the same.

Am I hallucinating, or was there some talk somewhere of Shargash/Zorak Zoran being light/dark aspects of the same being joined at the back?  Whenever Shargash turns to confront his counterpart, all he sees is fleeting shadow; whenever Zorak Zoran turns, all he sees if fading wisps of fire and light.

Major/minor is more a matter of mythological utility.

!i!

Edited Sunday at 05:10 PM by Ian Absentia

[theconfusingeel]

6 minutes ago, Ian Absentia said:

Am I hallucinating, or was there some talk somewhere of Shargash/Zorak Zoran being light/dark aspects of the same being joined at the back?  Whenever Shargash turns to confront his counterpart, all he sees is fleeting shadow; whenever Zorak Zoran turns, all he sees if fading wisps of fire and light.

that was probably on this forum, 50% chance on the dumb  theory thread lol(not to call it dumb, but that's probably where it was discussed)
Now I don't think Shargash and tolat aren't the same even if they are "equivalents". They do fight eachother in myth, and personally I can't really reconcile shargash's association with Annilla with him being ZZ, like wouldn't ZZ be associated with her too then seeing that they're both darkness gods?
Another kind of similar case is Moorgarki losing her cold like Yelmalio lost his heat, but I admit that's a loose association(and you could also bring up that Sandy's idea that Pamaltela is reverse Genertela).

[Jeff]

19 minutes ago, theconfusingeel said:

that was probably on this forum, 50% chance on the dumb  theory thread lol(not to call it dumb, but that's probably where it was discussed)
Now I don't think Shargash and tolat aren't the same even if they are "equivalents". They do fight eachother in myth, and personally I can't really reconcile shargash's association with Annilla with him being ZZ, like wouldn't ZZ be associated with her too then seeing that they're both darkness gods?
Another kind of similar case is Moorgarki losing her cold like Yelmalio lost his heat, but I admit that's a loose association(and you could also bring up that Sandy's idea that Pamaltela is reverse Genertela).

Shargash and Tolat? Pretty much all cultures agree that the Red Planet is called Shargash in Peloria and Tolat most other places. Same planet, same thing, same god.

Zorak Zoran is not Shargash/Tolat, but has some interesting parallels.

[Joerg]

The matter of Tolat/Zolan is complicated - twin of Anehilla (who became the Blue Moon), an Underworld Celestial who conquered the Upper Sky as a wandering planet (following Umath's invasion of the sky that led to him being crashed into the North Pillar, starting the tilt of the Sky Dome(s)). Hostile (twin?) brother of Verithurusa, known as Shargash by the Dara Happans (only). Orlanthi in Fronela know (and worship) him as Vorthan, Heortling Orlanthi list him as a major foe of their Storm gods and curse him as Jagrekriand.

His Southpath planet is even more confusing, as the Praxians worship him as a Lunar spirit,

The rulers of the third and fourth Dara Happan Hells are the Underworld aspects of Lodril (Derdromus, Monster Man) and (possibly) Shargash (Deshkorgos), although Shadzor(ings) is a term not used by Plentonius for the demonic citizens of Gray Age Alkoth.

Dara Happan Shargash also encompasses Alkor, the Green God and fertility aspect of the southern metropolis. IMG Alkor was the southern Planetary Son until his collision with Umath bloodied him and his descent into the same Underworld Umath and Verithurusa had crashed into (and had a tryst in) probably cemented that, and his absorption of his Black (underworld demon) aspect, possibly also known as Zolan or Vorthan in other parts.

 

I wonder how the non-identity of the Red God with Zorak Zoran (another twin born in the Underworld) manifests. It's not like they are each other's Others.

[theconfusingeel]

19 minutes ago, Jeff said:

Shargash and Tolat? Pretty much all cultures agree that the Red Planet is called Shargash in Peloria and Tolat most other places. Same planet, same thing, same god.

Zorak Zoran is not Shargash/Tolat, but has some interesting parallels.

I meant to say ZZ but I was thinkin of tolat and annilla so I wrote tolat by mistake lol