Malkioni 'grey area' questions

[Darius West]

On 7/24/2024 at 1:41 AM, PaulJW said:

3) Dromali can't use weapons?  But what about fist fights?  And how about martial arts??

4) Dromali farmers /herders are not supposed to use weapons - since they are not warriors and the role of the warrior is the purview of the warrior caste.  But bronze age farmers used weapons such as slings and clubs a lot to protect their animals from wolves etc.  To what extent is there a case for saying dromali should use slings and clubs for livestock protection??

We know that the Brithini will breed up for war.  Do we assume this is only among the Horali, or do we assume that the Dromali too are affected?  I suspect the latter, as in war, there are times when numbers matter.

I suspect that the Dromali are used as peasant levies.  Dromali are allowed to go to war without breaking caste  if their talar tells them it is acceptable.  

In any case, you can use a spear for hunting, and an axe for chopping wood, so the only questionable items are armor and shield, for a Dromali going to war imo.

It is perfectly likely that there is some ritual means of taking people from one caste to another, and the Hrestoli abused that system within their own ethical assumptions, but lost their immortality in the process because the Invisible God didn't agree.

[metcalph]

17 minutes ago, Darius West said:

I suspect that the Dromali are used as peasant levies.  Dromali are allowed to go to war without breaking caste  if their talar tells them it is acceptable.  

The trouble is does the Talar break caste in telling them to do so?  That becomes a strong incentive not to.  The Spell Forbidden by Uriosto implies that Dronars fighting is nor normal and they break caste if they fight (even if the Wizard and the Talar agree it is necessary).

 

[Manunancy]

On 7/28/2024 at 1:43 PM, metcalph said:

The trouble is does the Talar break caste in telling them to do so?  That becomes a strong incentive not to.  The Spell Forbidden by Uriosto implies that Dronars fighting is nor normal and they break caste if they fight (even if the Wizard and the Talar agree it is necessary).

 

If I remember right that spells causes both it's targets and it's casters to lose their immortality, which tens to prove it is indeed caste-breaking (and so reserved only for the direst emergencies)

[PaulJW]

On 7/28/2024 at 12:43 PM, metcalph said:

The trouble is does the Talar break caste in telling them to do so?

The guide does explicitly state that the stronger and healthier dronars are recruited to serve in a militia.  So, presumably, dronars can fight as reservist soldiers at the behest of the talar in times of war.

On p49 it explicitly states "Most able-bodied workers belong to the local militia."

Edited August 2 by PaulJW

[Nevermet]

I could imagine that a true western military campaign involve all 4 castes.  A Talar would lead, with Horali advisors (though exactly how much the Talar is rubber stamping vs making real decisions is probably up in the air.  The Horali would do the fighting, A Zzaburi would be there to do what they do, and the Dromali would do all the auxilliary work of cooking, hunting, moving supplies, etc.  Dromali may even be messengers and scouts.

 

I'd expect a local militia gets involved if a hypothetical Western polity was invaded suddenly by a hypothetical foreign force.  I'd also be willing to believe that a Dromali killing a human would hurt their Rightness, though it'd be much smaller if they did so at the order of their Talar to defend their village.  It's still a bending of caste, even if it was necessary and better than the alternative.  And if some of those support peronnel for a military campaign ended up needed to shed blood, same thing: a loss of Rightness, minimized due to the context.

 

EDIT: And again, this will likely work very differently for Brithini, Tanisor, Loskalm, Ramalia, Kaxtorplose, etc.

Edited August 3 by Nevermet

[PaulJW]

On 8/3/2024 at 10:25 PM, Nevermet said:

And again, this will likely work very differently for Brithini, Tanisor, Loskalm, Ramalia, Kaxtorplose, etc.

I should imagine that the Brithini are so conservative that they would not raise militias.  Instead they would use mercenaries or perhaps train units of slaves to plug the gaps in their inflexible system.

However, in most other Malkioni societies it seems to me that the guide is telling us that calling out a dromali militia in times of crisis is the norm rather than the exception.  Part of what it means to be a dromali is belonging to the local militia if you are fit and strong enough to be so selected.  Of course, what it potentially means is that the wearing or armour and the use of weapons by workers is 'Right' only under certain conditions; i.e. when the militia is called out in times of war or to deal with local raiders.  Even if a dromali is a member of the militia, it is not 'Right' for them to wear armour or carry military weapons at any other time, only when called up by the talar.  I can envisage Rokari philosophers arguing endlessly about precisely what constitutes the right set of circumstances for the militia to be called to service.  But I get the distinct impression that other more liberal forms of Malkionism would have no problems with it and would deem service in the militia as right action.

Of course all the stygian, Arkati and henotheist confusion in Ralios involves an erosion of meaningful caste identity anyway.  The Arkati would, by definition of what they are, happily ignore any concept of rightness as and when it suited them.  For them any adherence to anything resembling a caste is purely a matter of the extent to which they see any personal advantages to be gained from such specialisation.  In effect, 'do as thou wilt' shall be the whole of the law.  Such heresies obviously stand at the opposite end of the spectrum from the inflexible purity of the Brithini.  I suppose that just goes to show the sheer extremes of diversity present within what might be considered to fall under the umbrella of western belief.

[jajagappa]

2 hours ago, PaulJW said:

what it potentially means is that the wearing or armour and the use of weapons by workers is 'Right' only under certain conditions; i.e. when the militia is called out in times of war or to deal with local raiders. 

Also what "weapons" they are permitted to use. I suspect these are items that might also be considered "farm tools" in one way or another. Spears, bow & arrow, slings, scythes, sickles, etc might be their "weapons" in these drastic situations (weapons the Horali would never use).

[Joerg]

On 8/2/2024 at 11:02 AM, PaulJW said:

The guide does explicitly state that the stronger and healthier dronars are recruited to serve in a militia.  So, presumably, dronars can fight as reservist soldiers at the behest of the talar in times of war.

On p49 it explicitly states "Most able-bodied workers belong to the local militia."

Talking about the Rokari sect of the Malkioni, which is as much an aberration/perversion of Malkionism as some of the money-grabbing televangelists placing specific details of the deuteronomy over the sermon of the mountain are of Christianity.

So yes, in Rokari lands, the Malkioni logical exemption of worker caste members from combat has bee given up in favor of the Fornoari tradition of lower competence farmers involved in combat and battles in non-worker roles.

The so-called "Kingdom of Seshnela" really is the Kingdom of Fornoar (West Safelster) and Nolos, with only a few portions of Old Seshnela under its control. (This compares to the Holy Roman Empire which at the best of its times ruled over territory adjacent to the papal state of Rome.)

The Rokari have abolished the concept of the Men-of-All as a way to step out of the ancestral caste. They also seem to have abolished the hereditary Zzaburi caste that was present in all brands of Hrestolism (up to the abolishing of birth caste at all by the New Idealist Hrestoli of Loskalm during the Ban). Adoption of capable non-Zzabur-born individuals into sorcerous orders may have gone on already under the (early Jrusteli) God Learners, possibly syphoning the most promising magical talents out of the aspirant Men-of-All candidates, but possibly subjecting these individuals to celibacy. At least that seems to be going on with the Old style Seshnegi order of sorcerers that Jonat Bigbear brought back into his kingdom from Seshnela on the eve of its destruction.

The Rokari Watchers of Leplain allied with semi-barbarian Fornoari lords who had intermarried with God Learner Empire Men-of-All of mostly noble ancestry (or ascended to noble office through excellence as Men-of-All despite of different caste). Pretty much all Seshnegi and Imperial ruling talars underwent Man-of-All training and got accepted and initiated as such, even though their excellence or henosis with the One Mind might be at best mediocre. Bailifes and his fellow Fornoari semi-barbarians came from a Solar Enerali background as horse-warrior nobles integrated into Imperial Malkionism, and felt entitled to the full range of Man-of-All privileges by birth, and the Watchers of Leplain wanted a powerful military to spread their radical dismanteling of traditional Hrestoli Malkioni society enough to abolish the Men-of-All as a separate caste badly enough that they tolerated the wasteful chivalry when it got limited to the Talar caste and separated from any magical insights or fanciful magical questing. They were less than happy with the Tournament antics that established the Great Tournament of Kustria (and a resurgence of Hrestolist Men-of-All in its wake), but they had made themselves dependent on the descendants of Bailifes and his cronies.

But this was hardly the first time that Fornoari Solar influences entered the Hrestoli mainstream. The Seshnelan hero of the Gbaji Wars, Gerlant Flamesword, joined Arkat's fight against the servants of Gaalth and Nieby (Nysalor/Gbaji) leading horse warriors from Fornoar into Arkat's decisive battle against the Nysalorans, tipping a losing battle. While the Abiding Book somehow cements the ancestry of Gerlant among the Witnesses of Malkion's Actions, and there might be some truth in that from a Kachisti lineage going dark, Gerlant was not a Seshnegi, and had at best some Silver Empire Man-of-All marrying into a Fornoari solar noble household in his ancestry. Gerlant only happened to inherit his brothers-in-law, a very short elected dynasty of Old Seshnela of as dubious non-Talar origins.

But then the Brithini exiles who later joined the Middle Sea Empire (and earlier in the Dawn Age the Kingdom of Seshnela) seem to have acted on a "if he rules as a Talar, he will be accepted as a Talar" basis.

17 minutes ago, PaulJW said:

However, in most other Malkioni societies it seems to me that the guide is telling us that calling out a dromali militia in times of crisis is the norm rather than the exception.

The Guide takes the Rokari, being the biggest and most expansive sect of Malkionism, as the norm. Which sort of makes sense since the rest of Safelster follows deviant forms of Malkionism, too, and Loskalm with its New Idealist Hrestolism as the contender is just as weird.

Under old Hrestolism, members of the Worker caste were allowed to take training in martial (Soldier Caste) pursuits in preparation for a possible initiation as Men of All, and it would be a waste to let that training go untested. While a majority of these peasants who undertook military/militia training probably never started to learn to read and write (the minimal Zzaburi contribution to start as a Man-of-All), at the very least this remained in keeping with the Caste structure which is one of the most "sacred" or "logical" tenets of Malkionism, to contribute to society in the Right position doing the Right things.

In Loskalm and Junora, peasants may join the Guardians - aspirants for Man-of-All status, and servants of the community beyond their worker tasks - and thereby serve in the militia, instituting this very circumventory logic. In Safelster, most of the Arkati sects are branches off the Old Hrestoli ways, but with doses of Henotheism and Theyalan influences (which are present in Rokari Fornoar, and especially Rokari Fornoari nobility, too) the notion of all able-bodied males being expected to defend their homes would be wide-spread, and (barely) allow the honor of the Men-of-All to attack those who carry weaponry (of whichever kind) onto the field of battle.

In Jonatela, the peasants seem to be at best "lay Malkioni" without a fixed caste role, much like with the Trader Princes of Maniria or the Mraloti serfs (in the Imperial Roman sense rather than the medieval and early modern sense) in Ramalia. Orlanthi subject to Malkioni overlords will be joining a militia where allowed, which would be the case in Maniria, might be frowned upon in Jonatela, and seems extremely unlikely in Ramalia.

The Sedalpists of Umathela don't fight at all, not even their soldier caste, they employ non-Sedalpist mercenaries instead. Who may be local Malkioni of different Jrusteli/Hrestoli-descended traditions or the local (possibly Henotheist Malkioni) Orlanthi.

The Battles on Asgolan Fields where Bailifes, his beast-society soldiers and his Rokari sorcerers overthrew the (leaderless, or possibly plagued by too many leaders of similar rank) Old Seshneli Men-of-All and soldiery and their Old Hrestoli sorcerers don't seem to have involved peasant militias on either side, but then they were set field battles rather than campaigns of conquest or retaliation against rebelling lords.

1 hour ago, PaulJW said:

 Part of what it means to be a dromali is belonging to the local militia if you are fit and strong enough to be so selected.  Of course, what it potentially means is that the wearing or armour and the use of weapons by workers is 'Right' only under certain conditions; i.e. when the militia is called out in times of war or to deal with local raiders.

Under the Malkioni rules of war, Workers are not to be attacked unless they rise in rebellion. Wielding a weapon-like objects against attackers who become victors may obviously prove that the peasants were in rebellion and therefore not Right. Malkioni and especially Rokari "logic" is rather fraudulent like that.

Fighting against non-Malkioni (e.g. Pralori raiders or pirates) may retain that Rightness by dehumanizing the attackers (even if the attackers remain victorious). Fighting against Waertagi raiders or Vadeli could be (ir)rationalized the same way.

1 hour ago, PaulJW said:

Even if a dromali is a member of the militia, it is not 'Right' for them to wear armour or carry military weapons at any other time, only when called up by the talar.  I can envisage Rokari philosophers arguing endlessly about precisely what constitutes the right set of circumstances for the militia to be called to service.  But I get the distinct impression that other more liberal forms of Malkionism would have no problems with it and would deem service in the militia as right action.

Rokari are called pragmatists, or rather a pragmatist cotery of sorcerers drawing extra powers from celibacy. Allowing the Man-of-All trappings to their semi-barbarian new top Talar families is a compromise that doesn't impact their unlimited harvesting of promising sorcerers regardless of parental caste, while breeding out the magician genes from the population (except for some groups who keep breeding for magicians, like the Pithdarans). They also ignore the magician potential of females. But other than caring about everybody serving their sorcerous needs in the best way, they don't really care about peasants or their Rightness. Whatever serves the sorcerers best is Right. Peasants becoming militarily potent doesn't unless the sorcerers need to get rid of unruly Talars, and even then it's a dangerous precedent.

Malkioni who have a separate quasi-caste of Men-of-All necessarily also have a Right Action quasi-caste of trainee Men-of-All.

In Loskalm these are the Guardians, recruited from the caste-less default equated with the Worker Caste even if they may be descended from Talars, Horali or Zzaburi. Most of these descendants would be required by their families to join the Guardians and thereby the militia, and if from a former Zzaburi family join the Guardians in a scribe and magician function, if from a former Talar family in an administrative or jurisdictional function, and carrying these on if and when they become Men-of-All, on a "college stipend" path. But there may be Talar families who also have a non-Guardian branch administrating a mercantyle empire, or Horali families providing caravan guard services for hire rather than guardian duties, or Zzaburi families running scriptoria or libraries. Possibly with the expectation that their offspring will provide candidates for the privileged Guardian membership. If no longer in Loskalm, then in more recently converted places like Junora.

The Galvosti of northern Safelster are a variant Old Hrestoli group which used to be a lot more influential before the Proven Appearance of Arkat movement in Sentanos and Tortun and the Chariot of Lightning sect in Naskorion. They are still strong in their homeland of Holut, and presumably influentual in Tinaros as the local ruling sorceror-Talar does't seem to care about anything but his own sorcerous prowess. I view them as Man-of-All positive Talars welcoming Man-of-All candidates from the other castes, too, including their sorcerer caste. Back when I colluded with Ingo Tschinke on the Rise of Ralios freeform and Ralian background, I drew inspiration from Moorish chivalry in Iberia with a special tournament style that had riders with javelins targeting straw targets on the competitors' backs as one of their (Solar Enerali) customs ingrained into their society. Horse-riding would be a must for all martial types, whether Horal caste soldiers, Talar caste commanders, Men-of-All, or Man-of-All trainees/manservants, but defensive combat on foot or behind fortifications would be part of the requirements of the above.
Holut has the trolls of Guhan as neighbors, and militia action would be against trollkin or troll-led trollkin, usually manning what meagre defenses their homes offer. Such defensive action against krjalki (non-human Elder Races) or non-Malkioni barbarians (who the sorcerers may Tap to power their defenses, or their healing after such raids) would be Right Action under such conditions. LIkewise in defense against aggressive (but Malkioni) other sects, like Sentanos or Otkorion.
Unless the Watchers of Leplain manage to decimate or extinguish the Galvosti school of sorcerers, I expect that school to resurge greatly when the Reforestation strikes that area and there will be elves and dryads to Tap to empower defensive magics, in addition to tapping captive trollkin (and occasionally trolls).

 

There might be schools of Malkionism that regard Dromali "volunteering" for Tapping to empower the sorcerers as a form of militia service and Right Action. Presumably slight tapping POW and CHA as these don't really contribute to the Worker contribution to the society, and keeping the workers at their station.

 

1 hour ago, PaulJW said:

Of course all the stygian, Arkati and henotheist confusion in Ralios involves an erosion of meaningful caste identity anyway.  The Arkati would, by definition of what they are, happily ignore any concept of rightness as and when it suited them.  For them any adherence to anything resembling a caste is purely a matter of the extent to which they see any personal advantages to be gained from such specialisation.  In effect, 'do as thou wilt' shall be the whole of the law.  Such heresies obviously stand at the opposite end of the spectrum from the inflexible purity of the Brithini.  I suppose that just goes to show the sheer extremes of diversity present within what might be considered to fall under the umbrella of western belief.

While I agree about Henotheism where it includes Enerali/Theyalan notions (see above my thoughts about Bailifes and Gerlant), respect for the caste system is a core tenet of Malkionism. The exact workings of these castes and what's Right are subject to let's say tribal or gnostic logic. As a rule, able-bodied Enerali or Orlanthi were expected to participate in warfare, at least in defensive warfare. Acceptance of Arkat's teachings or the Middle Sea Empire stamp on their practices would not entirely have uprooted this convenient source of additional bodies to point against enemies. (The same logic, with somewhat less Arkat in the mix, goes for the Archduchy of Slontos and what of it survived the 1050 cataclysm.)

But it also applies to the "Kingdom of Seshnela" in western Safelster aka the Tanier Valley between Nolos and Lake Felster. The entire region was first ruled by King Dan and his successors in the Gray Age and/or at the Dawn, then embraced the Lightbringer missionaries late in the second century, and then embraced solar Nysalorean lore under the Bright Empire and/or Liberation by Arkat. Arkhome sits in Rindland, the house power of the Bailifides. The local Solar culture arranged themselves with the Theyalan Lightbringers, with Nysalor, with vampires against Arkar, with Liberation by Arkat, with the Return to Rightness early God Learners, and with Halwal's teaching against the Malkioneranist experiments and unchequered heroquesting of the God Learner orthodoxy. The region provided the "barbarian warlords" that destroyed the kingdom of Gerlant's heirs, and that destroyed the crumbling remnants of the Middle Sea Empire. So maybe yes, the Tanisoran "Kingdom of Seshnela" is the typical Malkioni society of the Third Age, with the Rokari having eroded meaningful caste identity as much as their more traditionalist Hrestoli or Hrestoli-cum-neo-Arkati neighbors to the east, and minus the Arkati influences south (Pithdaros, Nolos) and west (Pasos, Castle Coast) maintain and re-interprete. They all retain a solid (almost solar) respect for social strata, a notion also found in Orlanthi society although more mutable.

 

I have no idea about the new official revelations on Malkionism we might see with the Malkioni book in the Cults of RuneQuest series, and by that time possibly some Ralian or Tanisoran material, or more detail on the fringe Malkioni minorities in the Kethaelan portion of the core region of official RuneQuest Glorantha. I am sort of expecting a thorough "re-interpretation" or "abridging" of the sparse Malkioni texts by Greg that were published in the Stafford Library similar to the parody that the "Sharp Abiding Book" of the Rokari is of the original. (Take the bible, excise the Sermon of the Mountain, but bring in selected pieces of Deuteronomy, and possibly re-interprete the Ten Commandments to political convenience, establish the Chosen People mentality again, and preach a canon of material wealth, and still call that Christian values, and you know how I see the Rokari teachings.)

[Joerg]

8 minutes ago, jajagappa said:

Also what "weapons" they are permitted to use. I suspect these are items that might also be considered "farm tools" in one way or another. Spears, bow & arrow, slings, scythes, sickles, etc might be their "weapons" in these drastic situations (weapons the Horali would never use).

Spears, bow and arrow and sling would be soldier caste implements, too, but there might be differences in farmer-caste allowed versions of these implements. Would the militia be issued bronze-tipped spears or arrows, or maybe just copper implements, or stone tips?

The regular  infantry missile weapon of the Horali seems to be the simple form of the crossbow, but horseback archery would require bows - most likely composite bows. That would leave self bows as a possibility for peasantry engaging in missile combat.

The sling might be underrated by military historians. The Roman legions used it en masse, with devastating effect, the Balearan slingers were feared evenduring the Renaissance, and I wouldn't let the Darkness association distract from that, especially since we also have Thunderstone slingers. The Seshnegi warrior beast societies surely allow for one or two of these to specialize in military use of slings, possibly using lead shots rather than stones. Peasants would have to make do with stones.

Peasant weaponry would be mattocks (although copper mattocks may also be part of the Horali arsenal of siege warfare), pick-axe-like mining tools, hoes, scythes (possibly with a secondary socket on the blade to mount it like a naginata), hatchets as side-arm. In all likelihood they would use light javelins, with stone points or fire-hardened wooden points, when employed as mobile skirmishers for hit and run provocation. Javelins they could make from green coppiced wood, worth less than a silver piece if fire-hardened, maybe four silvers if mounted with a decently sized and knapped stone point.

[PaulJW]

56 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Spears, bow and arrow and sling would be soldier caste implements, too,

Depends on the culture I'd say.  Slings were often used by farmers in our bronze age to defend their livestock from predators.  I'd say a typical farmer of that period would carry a sling, perhaps a club or staff (if they are a pastoral farmer) and a sturdy dagger.   Scythes would be carried in the late summer/autumn when the harvest is gathered/ for haymaking.  Sickles would be mainly for herb foraging (although in medieval times most common folk had a lot of herbs growing in their gardens).   

Edited August 5 by PaulJW

[PaulJW]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

respect for the caste system is a core tenet of Malkionism

Raises the question as to whether such heresies as the Arkati are truly Malkioni anymore.

On the one hand, yes, the central importance of caste has been stated within the new Gloranthan material on several occasions.

On the other, this is what I see.  Long story short, I can’t see how caste restrictions really matter that much for the Arkati.  For one thing Arkati, being illuminates, are not bound by any caste restrictions anyway.  For another, the image of the Arkati sorcerer on p378 of the Guide – the guy has a dagger which presumably he uses when needs must (the text even draws attention to it).  But most revealing is the write up of the Black Arkati in the Smoking Ruins (Urvantan’s Tower): no obvious sign of any caste system at work here at all.  Looking at the details we are given of actual Arkati in that scenario:

1)        An ‘adept’ who wears armour, fights and draws rune magic from several Lightbringer cults and also uses spirit magic.  Essentially, at this point in his Arkati journey, he has no caste and lives as an Orlanthi who is aspiring to Arkati illumination. 

2)        Then we have an Arkati sorcerer-priest who uses spirit magic, rune magic and sorcery, wears armour and fights with a rapier.

3)        Another initiate who is an initiate of Argan Argar, uses rune and spirit magic, wears armour and fights with a range of weapons.

Most interesting of all is the short cult write-up on p136 makes no mention of caste.  The progression envisaged appears to be that a) Arkati start off as initiates of any Lightbringer or troll cult, b) they then become illuminated (the Arkati way), c) Once they are illuminated, they may learn sorcery (assuming they are intelligent enough), d) once you know enough sorcery you may become a priest.  There are no caste restrictions on any of this and no restrictions on weapons or armour use.  Anyone can follow the same progression.

It seems clear to me, based on that, that Arkati heretics can all potentially use rune magic, use spirit magic, use sorcery, wear armour AND fight with weapons.  All with no caste restrictions.  (probably why they are called heretics in fairness).  That said I can see certain Arkati choosing to specialise, not because of any concept of ‘rightness’ but simply because being a powerful sorcerer requires dedication (as does becoming a great warrior).  So, I can see Arkati specialising because they want to, and perhaps to fit in within a western culture that may be intolerant of Arkati heretics.  But I don’t see them doing so because any caste rules necessarily compel them to.

[PaulJW]

Just as a side note, but probably worth saying as someone who lives deep in the heart of farming country.  Real farmers use knives ... a lot.  If you don't carry one with you, you ain't no farmer.

[Joerg]

9 hours ago, PaulJW said:

Raises the question as to whether such heresies as the Arkati are truly Malkioni anymore.

On the one hand, yes, the central importance of caste has been stated within the new Gloranthan material on several occasions.

On the other, this is what I see.  Long story short, I can’t see how caste restrictions really matter that much for the Arkati.  For one thing Arkati, being illuminates, are not bound by any caste restrictions anyway.

Ralios is rife with Arkati sects whose members are not (yet) illuminated. The Proven Appearance of Arkat sect led by Erengazor is undoubtedly Arkati (or rather Neo-Arkati, and quite likely inside the Malkioni spectrum, built on partial secrets recovered by Halwal before his fatal duel with Yomili towards the end of the Second Age), but I don't expect more than one in 1000 to even have contacted illumination rolls.

Arkati in sects following/derived of one of the old Hrestoli models (anywhere from the Dawn Age to the state philosophy of the Middle Sea Empire) are likely to become Men-of-All before they even approach deeper secrets of Arkatism will have an option for adherents to study the necessary basics of the other castes to approach the status of the Man-of-All (castes) while nominally still belonging to their birth caste.

Arkati in movements which don't identify as Malkioni may disregard any of the caste stuff, agreed. The Arkati of early Second Age Kethaela and Dragon Pass were associated with the Kitori rather than with Malkionism. There may be similar notions in Darkness-worshipping parts of Naskorion, and I doubt that the sorcerer-trolls of Guhan have a caste system (outside of the sub-species separation among their trolls).

 

The House of Black Arkat at Arkat's Hold in the Esrolian North March (at the end of the Building Wall) is a center of Arkat worship, but not exactly a Malkioni sect even though it teaches Arkati sorcery (like the trolls of Guhan do, too). It is made up of Darkness-worshipping people from Orlanthi culture(s). Are they Malkioni, or even fringe Malkioni? A big maybe at best. Are they worshippers of Arkat? Clearly yes, and that makes them Arkati, and probably trainee heroquesters with a strict moral code regarding hero plane activities.

Worshippers of Arkat the Liberator are quite likely to be Orlanthi rather than Malkioni, too, although henotheism might happen.
 

  

9 hours ago, PaulJW said:

Depends on the culture I'd say.  Slings were often used by farmers in our bronze age to defend their livestock from predators.  I'd say a typical farmer of that period would carry a sling, perhaps a club or staff (if they are a pastoral farmer) and a sturdy dagger.   Scythes would be carried in the late summer/autumn when the harvest is gathered/ for haymaking.  Sickles would be mainly for herb foraging (although in medieval times most common folk had a lot of herbs growing in their gardens).   

Slings are typically associated with herders, especially shepherds whose herd beasts are a good size for medium-sized predators like wolves, wolverines, lynxes and similar sized felines. They aren't typically used to defend cattle or chicken coops, and defense against such predators won't use military lead bullets but rather nicely shaped pebbles from river beds.

Our Bronze Age was rather poor in metals - wearing a metal object was a status statement reserved for the most influential members of society. A metal blade might be the shared possession of a small household or a core family rather than individual property, and not necessarily carried around while doing field work. Non-metal weaponry may have been more common.

Sickles would be made from knapped stone set into antlers or suitable pieces of wood. Or possibly suitable carnivore teeth.  Scythes might be made of metal where available as attaching such composite sickles to long handles might result in rather un-ergonomic implements. I don't recall any bronze scythe blades from grave goods. Sickles leave the other hand to hold the gathered stalks tight enough for the sickle blade to cut them off, then toss the bundle onto a stack of such bundles for transport. Scythes are free-swinging implements depending on the greater speed the long handle offers to cut off more stalks. They speed up hay making a lot, but might have been used sparingly in grain harvests as the impact might have led to increased losses of grains from the stalks compared to the sickle method.

 

The idea of agricultural implements bypassing the prohibition to wield weapons in a caste society seems to be true for Samurai Japan after the Jizamurai farmer-warrior intermediate became obsolete. Elsewhere, the cost of specialized weapons may have been prohibitive for low-income farmers, while a farming yeomanry (similar to the Jizamurai) might have been able to afford some.

Bronze axe heads in hoards appear to have been multi-purpose items, while the dagger axes ("halberds") of western and central European Bronze Age appear to have been high status weaponry unsuited for base working purposes. These were signs of authority and status, probably more than actual weapons for warfare.

 

Edited August 5 by Joerg

[PaulJW]

One other question that occurred to me recently concerns the Vadeli.  Are they actually Malkioni or are they something else; similar maybe but not part of the Malkioni tradition?

And, do they even worship the Invisible God at all?  I noted the other day that in Mythology, on p110 concerning the Battle of Treason we are told the Vadeli betrayed the dwarves and 'submitted to the Devil' ,,, so ... could this mean they became devil worshippers??  It certainly implies quite different outlook from the Malkioni.

[jajagappa]

1 hour ago, PaulJW said:

One other question that occurred to me recently concerns the Vadeli.  Are they actually Malkioni or are they something else; similar maybe but not part of the Malkioni tradition?

They are distinct. They seem to be a branch/parody of the immortal Brithini (and IIRC if the Vadeli maintain their own transgressive ways, they too are immortal). 

They are decidedly not Malkioni and do not honor the prophet of the Invisible God. Minimally they seem to align with a range of "evil" deities such as Ompalam, Seseine, and Gark the Calm. Whether they "worship" Chaos is unclear, but they certainly enjoy corrupting and betraying others. 

[Nevermet]

This is from memory, so I apologize for the glosses.

 

There's a bit about them in a Stafford Library publication.  In that text, their ancestors started off as ancestors of a Malkioni tribe who were enamored with exploration. However, Vadel broke from tradition in the name of power. While the Brithini hold to purity codes that give them immortality by living perfectly within the laws of the universe, the Vadeli are ritually impure in ways that give them similar power.  Think of them as Malkioni Sovereign Citizens.  They have castes, but 1 caste has been non-existent for ages, and they come back during the Hero Wars. In short, they're consistently portrayed as evil, and they absolutely tap and engage Chaos when it furthers their goals.  Someone in one of these threads (Dumb Theory?) suggested Ompalam was a deified Vadeli.

 

I'll be curious how much info on them shows up in the eventual Invisible God book. I have impossible, unfair, and unrealistic hopes for the IG book, and I know this. However, there's a chance there will be some updated info on them, their practices, etc.

 

EDIT: I type slow.

Edited August 13 by Nevermet

[Nevermet]

IMG, I want them to be involved in the Manirian Hero Wars, but I haven't decided how yet.

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, PaulJW said:

One other question that occurred to me recently concerns the Vadeli.  Are they actually Malkioni or are they something else; similar maybe but not part of the Malkioni tradition?

And, do they even worship the Invisible God at all?  I noted the other day that in Mythology, on p110 concerning the Battle of Treason we are told the Vadeli betrayed the dwarves and 'submitted to the Devil' ,,, so ... could this mean they became devil worshippers??  It certainly implies quite different outlook from the Malkioni.

The short accurate text on the Vadeli is found in Nick Brooke's Malkioni primer on the Jonstown Compendium.

Neither the Brithini nor the Vadeli worship the Invisible God, despite being the more original Logician peoples (according to one source in Revealed Mythologies) or at least natives of the Kingdom of Logic.

They are amoral immortals who don't worship anyone (but themselves, and possibly their ancestors), live in a caste system that stems from the same root as the Brithini (the ancestors of the Malkioni). They were early opponents of Zzabur, the Sorcerer Supreme, and have been vilified ever since. Rather than contest those claims, the Vadeli embraced the notion.

Vadeli will submit to superior power, but don't ever confuse that with obedience or fealty. The Vadeli have the values of sociopaths and will betray their allies or superiors when they see a benefit in that. Submitting to the Devil was just that.

Much of the lore about the Vadeli comes from Malkioni sources. The Malkioni are the descendants of Brithini refugees from the Vadeli wars, which makes them just a little bit prejudiced against the Vadeli. The Vadeli were victorious in that war, until the Breaking of the World sank most of their homelands and colonies.

Both the Brithini and the Vadeli are elitarian supremacists, with the difference that the Brithini followers of Zzabur practice isolationism while the Vadeli are eager to return to their past glory enslaving much of the western half of the world. With the Opening, they established the Orange Guild in Jrustela as the heart of their new Thalassocracy, then returned to the northern Pamaltelan coasts claiming they were gods worthy of worship for overcoming Zzabur's curse. Their nimbus of invincibility fell apart after the Battle of Oenriko Rocks, but all major ports of northwestern Pamaltela still have Vadeli ghettoes/extraterritorial districts.

The Vadeli relationship with the dwarfs is one of inexplicable temporary alliances, usually to the detriment of the other humans nearby. While the Somelz project of the dwarfs runs counter to their initial plans for the Pamaltelan coasts, they seem to support the dwarf repair efforts now, as long as they get to enslave the human populations affected by these changes. Both sides have used the other party against their contrahents until the Vadeli pulled some great stunt of betrayal, but on the whole the Mostali find them less confusing and more reliable than most other humans, and especially more than the followers of Zzabur and Malkion.

[Eff]

3 hours ago, PaulJW said:

One other question that occurred to me recently concerns the Vadeli.  Are they actually Malkioni or are they something else; similar maybe but not part of the Malkioni tradition?

And, do they even worship the Invisible God at all?  I noted the other day that in Mythology, on p110 concerning the Battle of Treason we are told the Vadeli betrayed the dwarves and 'submitted to the Devil' ,,, so ... could this mean they became devil worshippers??  It certainly implies quite different outlook from the Malkioni.

Vadeli in very old texts are people who lived on Brithos before Malkion arrived. Later, they were redefined as the former Viymorni, one of the primal divisions of Malkioni who explored the world, who had encounters with animism and dwarves and this turned one of them, Vadel, against Malkion (possibly) and Zzabur. I think the current version, judging by the passage in Mythology, is going to be different yet again. 

I think the question of whether they're Malkioni or not depends on what you define "Malkioni" as- they are immortal in the same way the Brithini are, which is ostensibly what happens if you practice Malkionism "properly". They also, consistently, flagrantly reject major aspects of Malkioni religious teachings. They are consistently noted as atheists, as well, but so are the Brithini. 

Metatextually, the Vadeli have some overtones going on which are problematic in both negative and positive senses of the word.

 

[metcalph]

The Vadeli are Malkioni in that they and their magics are descended from the Land of Logic.   The other criterion used - worship of the Invisible God - has a rules-related history that makes it a misleading question to ask (the Wizards don't worship the Invisible God either).  

[davecake]

On 8/5/2024 at 10:06 AM, PaulJW said:

I should imagine that the Brithini are so conservative that they would not raise militias.  Instead they would use mercenaries or perhaps train units of slaves to plug the gaps in their inflexible system.

The Brithini will use barbarian mercenaries. If, between the use of mercenaries and the Horali, the Brithini still need to fight, something terrible has happened and it’s like the Darkness come again, and they know that in such circumstances they might be required to take caste breaking action and fall into age and apostasy. 

[davecake]

On 7/28/2024 at 12:23 PM, Darius West said:

I suspect that the Dromali are used as peasant levies.  Dromali are allowed to go to war without breaking caste  if their talar tells them it is acceptable.

By the Rokari, who are sad imitators of the Brithini but regularly ignoring the rules when it gets difficult. The Rokari know they live in a fallen world, but think by continual practice of Rightness they might fix it, the Brithini think this is absurd. 

For the Brithini, no, Dronar are not permitted to go to war. Dronars fight, bang, you age now. And probably the Talar who ordered them to fight as well. 
 

On 7/28/2024 at 12:23 PM, Darius West said:

In any case, you can use a spear for hunting, and an axe for chopping wood, so the only questionable items are armor and shield, for a Dromali going to war imo.

Again I think this is true for the Rokari, but not for the Brithini. 

[davecake]

The Vadeli IMO are essentially an offshoot of the Brithini that:

• obey the law of Zzabur, which is the caste system, and so are immortal like the Brithini. 
• seem to have followed the laws regarding no caste interbreeding strictly forever, and so retain caste physical differences. Brown Vadeli are dronar caste, red horali warriors, the extinct blue Vadeli zzaburi, etc. Sandy seems to think they never had Talar at all, some other sources claim there were once Yellow Vadeli leaders too. 
• Mostly treat the caste laws as something to be followed to the letter, but freely ignore in spirit where they are able, and love to find loopholes in the original law
• some such loopholes are essential for their current society to function. They cope with the lack of higher castes by mostly basing their need for a hierarchy of command and control on maritime law rules (put there for the Waertagi?), so their rulers are always admirals etc, though they also accept foreign judges etc sometimes (famously, Hrestol once). 
• they regard the laws as mostly regulating conduct between Vadeli, and in no way limiting what they are able to do to non-Vadeli. So they freely Tap, murder, torture, enslave, etc almost all others if they can. If something was not mentioned in the laws (which were written before their ancestors had even met spirits or shamans) as far as they are concerned that means it is fair game, and that includes Chaos. The Brithini are far more conservative. 
• regard the caste rules around sorcery as only limiting the type of sorcery, not all sorcery, and in fact are all sorcerers, and often very skilled ones (due to immortality). Brown Vadeli tend to use elemental sorcery, enchanting, and controlling lesser creatures (including humans). Red Vadeli have a lot of nasty direct combat magic. But the Blue Vadeli were far more flexible users of sorcery, and quite terrifying, known for things like creating huge zombie armies. 
• are generally are extremely intelligent sociopaths, entirely without empathy, and selfishly motivated. Though often charming.
• they see no Logical basis not to be selfish, see compassion only as weakness, betray allies or break agreements without hesitation if they think they can benefit from it, etc. Though are smart long term thinkers who can be dealt with rationally.
• the Brithini cannot prove the Vadeli attitude to be logically flawed, but believe it is with every fibre of their dealing, which drives them nuts. 

 

[Darius West]

3 hours ago, davecake said:

By the Rokari, who are sad imitators of the Brithini but regularly ignoring the rules when it gets difficult. The Rokari know they live in a fallen world, but think by continual practice of Rightness they might fix it, the Brithini think this is absurd. 

For the Brithini, no, Dronar are not permitted to go to war. Dronars fight, bang, you age now. And probably the Talar who ordered them to fight as well. 
 

Again I think this is true for the Rokari, but not for the Brithini. 

That sort of flies in the face of the whole "The Brithini are breeding" quote though.  Surely if only the Horali breed up for war, that would be commented on, rather than a general Brithini breeding program, which is what seems to have been indicated?

[PaulJW]

15 hours ago, Joerg said:

Neither the Brithini nor the Vadeli worship the Invisible God,

I had kind of picked up on that.  In the case of the Brithini, I read this as the Brithini effectively being something close to atheists in a modern sense.  I see them as regarding what other Malkioni term as the "Invisible God" to be simply a superstitious anthropomorphising of primal cosmic forces that are ultimately unthinking forces of nature.  "Worship" is therefore pointless since you are attempting to interact with a collection of powers that want nothing from you and have no desire to do anything other than simply be.  Hence, the 'Invisible God' can't "answer your prayers". 

I can see the Vadeli being very similar in that sense.  I can see them regarding the 'Invisible God' as nothing more than a collection of primal powers and forces for them to understand and manipulate for their own ends.

I suppose, in that sense, both the Brithini and the Vadeli ultimately recognise no real higher power than themselves.

4 hours ago, davecake said:

For the Brithini, no, Dronar are not permitted to go to war. Dronars fight, bang, you age now.

In that sense I would agree that the Brithini (and Vadeli) are special cases.  They stick to their castes (which they interpret in admittedly different ways) not because of any allusions regarding spiritual purity/benefits but for the simple practical reason that by doing so they remain immortal.  Their religion/belief system is therefore non-spiritual and involves no worship or spiritual experiences.  It is simply about 'being' in the here and now and about maintaining that state of being through orthopraxy.