Glorantha - where the streets are so clean you can eat your dinner off them

[Squaredeal Sten]

The oldest  wagons I have seen pictures of have spoked wheels. and are bronze age.  So i would not assume solid wheels.

Edited Wednesday at 11:30 AM by Squaredeal Sten
fat fingered the virtual keys.

[Kloster]

5 hours ago, Squaredeal Sten said:

The oldest  wagons I have seen pictures of have spoked wheels. and are bronze age.  So zi would not assume solid wheels.

According to Abu Simbel bas-relief, Ramses's chariot used at the battle of Kadesh (1274 BC) used spoked wheels.

[Tiný]

ahhh yes here we are...well given we have this info ..why are the routes from sartar to pavis not using wagons and said to be using mules/beasts of burden as I heard someone mention earlier ..they said 70% of cargo capicity was given over to forage and water which seems a no brainer to profit when added into potential praxian nomad attacks .

Pavis wagon trains? or is the trail too rough/dry/grassless/non-existant???

Quote

Cart, Four-wheeled: An open, wooden vehicle for transporting heavy loads. It requires two beasts of burden or four men to draw it. Price: 10 L.
Cart, Two-wheeled: An open, wooden vehicle drawn by a single beast of burden or two men. Price: 4 L.
Wagon, Four-wheeled: A vehicle with wooden sides usually covered with a hide or cloth canopy, drawn by a pair of horses or other beasts of burden. Price: 15 L plus 5 L for cover

 

[jajagappa]

20 hours ago, Tiný said:

carts ? 2 wheel , 4 wheel ? , wagons (wicked wild prax west?) ? how common in glorantha? 1 wheel chinese wheelbarrow ? just curious , solid wheels  I assume?

yes, yes, yes, likely yes. And I think there is a general assumption that spoked wheels are likely available (based on the Dara Happan symbol for Lokarnos as in GRoY, p.75)

[John Biles]

4 hours ago, Tiný said:

ahhh yes here we are...well given we have this info ..why are the routes from sartar to pavis not using wagons and said to be using mules/beasts of burden as I heard someone mention earlier ..they said 70% of cargo capicity was given over to forage and water which seems a no brainer to profit when added into potential praxian nomad attacks .

Pavis wagon trains? or is the trail too rough/dry/grassless/non-existant???

 

There are no roads from Sartar to Pavis.

 

[Jose-san]

On 9/14/2024 at 3:25 PM, Akhôrahil said:

Huge Waste Elementals sweep the streets at night, gobbling everything up to add to their stinking, decaying bodies. At day, they're herded out to the fields to deposit it.

It's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it.

Actually, Earth Elementals would be great to clean the streets.

[Tiný]

9 hours ago, John Biles said:

There are no roads from Sartar to Pavis.

 

There must be a rough trail of sorts ..2 if I understand correctly..there is some serious traffic between these two areas .....or are there ?

[M Helsdon]

1 hour ago, Tiný said:

There must be a rough trail of sorts ..2 if I understand correctly..there is some serious traffic between these two areas .....or are there ?

The Pavis Road was a military road running from Herongreen to New Pavis but it is basically a track, and lacking sources of water. Most people follow the caravan trail instead.

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/the-pavis-road/

[PaulJW]

On 9/18/2024 at 3:37 AM, Squaredeal Sten said:

The oldest  wagons I have seen pictures of have spoked wheels. and are bronze age.  So i would not assume solid wheels.

Indeed, spoked wheels were very common in our bronze age during the mid-to-late period.  It was the age of chariots after all & illustrations from the period show them with spoked wheels.  

I think the earliest surviving spoked wheel from our history is from 2000 BC (which is late neolithic/early bronze age).

Edited Thursday at 06:28 PM by PaulJW

[Tiný]

7 hours ago, M Helsdon said:

The Pavis Road was a military road running from Herongreen to New Pavis but it is basically a track, and lacking sources of water. Most people follow the caravan trail instead.

https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/the-pavis-road/

yes this was the article I was refering to earlier ...but again we are talking about glorantha ..with magic, hero quests to open new sources of water , or to defeat the evil spirits choking the Adari River which "is dry for most of the year" mmmm why not have some one cast cloud cover and rain and spread out your leather sheets and water troughs to gather the 15 mins Oppss longer time use xtension ..as much rain water  for your animals to drink etc.

In the world of glorantha such hardships would be overcome with magic and spells ,I can not  see people being all dragged over most of prax in wide rambling circles for lack of a water cultist ($$$) who would be able to make the river god rise up for an hour or so or someone else who could make the grass grow in a limited area etc .It starts to sound like dogma and of course all your experiences will vary..I feel this limiting idea which does not take into account the inherent magic of the game world .

I suspect this is old trickster story designed to make weak willed and guilble saps go with the caravan south and all over the plains and act  as unwitting canon fodder/arrow shields in case of attacks and pay double  to the issaries merchants  for the pleasure of a round trip to every mudhole in Prax  each one with ONLY one lousy caravanserai owned by ..wait a minute ....the same merchants who own the caravan!  Scam 😉

ps --sounds like its time for a "watering  the pavis road " heroquest  and I dont mean its pee pee time either

[Kloster]

1 hour ago, PaulJW said:

Indeed, spoked wheels were very common in our bronze age during the mid-to-late period.  It was the age of chariots after all & illustrations from the period show them with spoked wheels.  

I think the earliest surviving spoked wheel from our history is from 2000 BC (which is late neolithic/early bronze age).

Bronze age, in the Mediterranean area, is roughly 2500  to 800BC. The battle of Qadesh occured in 1274 (clearly mid bronze age) and used allegedly 5700 chariots between Ramses's egyptians and Mutawali's hittites, all of them with spoked wheels

Edited Thursday at 07:51 PM by Kloster
typing mistake

[svensson]

Solid wheels were for wagons that didn't have speed demands placed on them [as compared to chariots]. While they were somewhat wasteful in materials, they were far easier to make than spoked wheels and took far, FAR less maintenance. This is something to consider if your society largely relies on at-home woodworking for much of their needs.

Most villages in wooded regions have a fairly high level of 'jack o' trades' skill among the farmers. On any given day a farmer will have to turn his hand to any number of chores and this provides him with a good level of skill in a lot of crafts. This means that villages will have a fairly high average level of hands-on crafting. But this crafting is also cruder and less refined than that of a focused craftsman. They can get new wooden hinges on your door, but they won't be pretty or smooth. It's the same thing with most crafts... they can repair simple tools, weave a needed basket, make cordage out of grass or hair and so forth.

But for dowel turning, hot smithing, and so on, you need a dedicated trained craftsman to do that work.

And you need the materials to do the work with. In Prax's Sun County, there aren't many woodworkers at all. Why? Because there aren't that many trees, and most of the ones they do have are softwoods like date palms.

[M Helsdon]

11 hours ago, Tiný said:

yes this was the article I was refering to earlier ...but again we are talking about glorantha ..with magic, hero quests to open new sources of water , or to defeat the evil spirits choking the Adari River which "is dry for most of the year" mmmm why not have some one cast cloud cover and rain and spread out your leather sheets and water troughs to gather the 15 mins Oppss longer time use xtension ..as much rain water  for your animals to drink etc.

The Adari is dry for most of the year because of weather patterns, and those, in Glorantha, are caused by gods, major and minor, and spirits, large and small. To alter the Adari's water flow would require inducing the winds to deliver clouds to the Adari's watershed, and to induce those clouds to deliver rain throughout the year, and the existing flow is mostly melt water from winter snow.

As for using leather sheets to collect water, even in a major downpour, the catchment won't be enough to satisfy the thirst of draught animals. 

11 hours ago, Tiný said:

In the world of glorantha such hardships would be overcome with magic and spells

 Only in a very limited way.

11 hours ago, Tiný said:

I can not  see people being all dragged over most of prax in wide rambling circles for lack of a water cultist ($$$) who would be able to make the river god rise up for an hour or so or someone else who could make the grass grow in a limited area etc .It starts to sound like dogma and of course all your experiences will vary..I feel this limiting idea which does not take into account the inherent magic of the game world .

The innate magical nature of Glorantha makes making significant changes to the geography and climate very difficult, as those are embodied within major magical forces. Water has to come from somewhere, and unless hidden underground, as with the Serpents of the Wastes, has to be delivered by Heler and his clouds.

The Pavis Road is just a trail of hard-packed earth. If it rains, it turns into a quagmire with wheels and animals stuck in the mud.

Edited yesterday at 07:26 AM by M Helsdon

[jajagappa]

19 hours ago, Tiný said:

In the world of glorantha such hardships would be overcome with magic and spells ,I can not  see people being all dragged over most of prax in wide rambling circles for lack of a water cultist ($$$) who would be able to make the river god rise up for an hour or so or someone else who could make the grass grow in a limited area etc .It starts to sound like dogma and of course all your experiences will vary..I feel this limiting idea which does not take into account the inherent magic of the game world .

So the God Learners thought. And the Gods rose up and destroyed them.

What happens when you try to bring that water to Prax? In the Wastes, the spores of Chaos germinate and fester, the Devil's Marsh grows, and monstrous beings like Cwim and Thed are drawn to the area. And then Storm Bull is forced to scour it away with his hot, dry breath and clouds of stinging sand. Or perhaps you've simply summoned Orlanth's clouds farther, and then Storm Bull simply gets angry at Orlanth's incursion into his domain and summons his raging winds to push Orlanth back where he belongs. 

Edited 16 hours ago by jajagappa

[Tiný]

7 hours ago, jajagappa said:

So the God Learners thought. And the Gods rose up and destroyed them.

What happens when you try to bring that water to Prax? In the Wastes, the spores of Chaos germinate and fester, the Devil's Marsh grows, and monstrous beings like Cwim and Thed are drawn to the area. And then Storm Bull is forced to scour it away with his hot, dry breath and clouds of stinging sand. Or perhaps you've simply summoned Orlanth's clouds farther, and then Storm Bull simply gets angry at Orlanth's incursion into his domain and summons his raging winds to push Orlanth back where he belongs. 

Tuts and checks his list of glorantha tourist destinations and draws a charcol lines through Plains of Prax  " too sandy!" hrrrmmmrph