GerallKahla Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 Hello all - I'm curious about how to give BRP a broader audience among gamers. We, as a culture, are all getting a bit older. And it would be nice to have new gamers come in and sort out how to use this set of rules in the hobby. From the perspective of my early gaming, BRP was one of my first non-D&D games. It helped me to think of roleplaying in a different light; allowing a fairly flexible rules-set to be used for playing archetypes (RuneQuest) and horror games (Call of Cthulhu). I'm not interested in BRP becoming the only thing played; that's not reasonable. I am, however, interested in passing the system on to other gamers. Giving them another, very versatile and interesting tool for their kit. Do you think giving beginning gamers exposure to the system would be more profitable than trying to get gamers who already have preferences and habits to use the system? Please, let me know what you think - Thanks in advance! Quote Emerging from my Dark Age... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skunkape Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 One thing to do, assuming you can get players to sign up, to help broaden the exposure of BRP is to run games at conventions or gaming stores. A short scenario could generate possible interest with new players. Also, introduce the system to the group you normally play with. Currently, my group has been using various D20 systems only, but when the current campaign I'm running ends, the next game I run will be a BRP game! Quote Skunk - 285/420 BRP book You wanna be alright you gotta walk tall Long Beach Dub Allstars & Black Eyed Peas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PK Games Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 One thing to do, assuming you can get players to sign up, to help broaden the exposure of BRP is to run games at conventions or gaming stores. A short scenario could generate possible interest with new players. Also, introduce the system to the group you normally play with. Currently, my group has been using various D20 systems only, but when the current campaign I'm running ends, the next game I run will be a BRP game! Im planning on hitting Origins (Columbus, Ohio) this year and will be toting along Berlin '61, some 40K BRP Ive been working on and maybe other BRP/GORE style games. I will be there everyday and for the first time ever, my trusty co-gamers wont be there. My old group from college usually meet up yearly at Origins to kick back a few beers, terrorize the vendors and play a game or two, but they all seem to be occupied this year. A few will be in and out. So I should have time to claim a hall table and play some games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Tar Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 Do you think giving beginning gamers exposure to the system would be more profitable than trying to get gamers who already have preferences and habits to use the system? To directly answer your question, yes, I suspect exposing new gamers to a system will be "more profitable" for that particular system than exposing established players to the same system. This is simply because there is often (usually?) an 'investment' in time and mental energy by established players in one or more systems and so a natural degree of resistance when it comes to learning yet another system (e.g., I’m avoiding learning the Ubiquity system from Hollow Earth Expedition, because I want to concentrate on BRP and get to know it well). However, having said this, I'm not sure why you want to address this particular dichotomy. What's wrong with proselytising the BRP system to both new and established players? My suggested selling point to both is that it is ‘elegant’, relatively simple and transparent, and well established and therefore robust. Long may she sail :thumb: Quote 132/420 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerallKahla Posted April 9, 2008 Author Share Posted April 9, 2008 For the record, I belong to a group with 3 GMs who rotate the duty across their plots. Each GM presents a 5 - 10 session plot to the group, and we choose 2 plots to play. One week, the first plot is run. The next, one of my cohorts will run theirs. We each have several potential plots, and when one arch ends, our group decides on the next to be played. Some plots are set in the same setting and game (where you can play an old character again); some are unique. It all depends on what the players are interested in at the time one of the plots ends. All of the games I run use BRP (of one version or another). So, my group is already familiar with the system and enjoy it. However, having said this, I'm not sure why you want to address this particular dichotomy. What's wrong with proselytising the BRP system to both new and established players? My suggested selling point to both is that it is ‘elegant’, relatively simple and transparent, and well established and therefore robust. Long may she sail :thumb: Specifically, I am concerned about conventions. There's nothing quite like having a group of unknown players at your table (some complete newbies, some veteran BRP'ers, others of unknown allegiances), running a game and having the d20-fan complain the game isn't like theirs. Considering the odds of a completely new gamer getting exposure to the BRP system is much less than that same person finding a d20 book at the local bookseller, I want to make a clean first-impression! I ask because I'm thinking of advertising with my FLGS for "new gamers" to run BRP for. I'm trying to keep this kind of gamer-society exposure to a minimum. Also, like mentioned before, there is a real inertia to overcome when trying to present a new system to gamers. I even feel it myself. I don't want to play in systems other than BRP, typically. (Even with the group described above, I find myself having to play in systems that these other GMs want to run.) Does any of this make sense? Quote Emerging from my Dark Age... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason D Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 I'm hoping that I can make it to Gen Con with Chaosium's delegation. Whether they'll have me as a booth monkey, or if I'll (hopefully) be running non-stop demos of BRP has yet to be determined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogspawner Posted April 9, 2008 Share Posted April 9, 2008 ...non-stop demos of BRP... "What do we want?" "BRP!" "When do want it?" "NOW!!" Yes, that might get more of an audience! :focus: I'm hoping that I can make it to Gen Con with Chaosium's delegation. Can we take it that means you're of the 'convert existing gamers' school? Do you think giving beginning gamers exposure to the system would be more profitable than trying to get gamers who already have preferences and habits to use the system? About equal, I reckon. Yes, there are quite a large number of D&D players out there due for an upgrade to BRP, but also I think there are more computer game players (whom I don't count as RPG gamers) who could be turned-on to the social pleasure of 'real' games fairly easily. Also, like mentioned before, there is a real inertia to overcome when trying to present a new system to gamers. I even feel it myself. I don't want to play in systems other than BRP, typically. (Even with the group described above, I find myself having to play in systems that these other GMs want to run.) Does any of this make sense? Perfectly. I'm pretty much in the same position. Life is short - why waste time with inferior systems? And yet, I'm facing the grim prospect of having to play D&D3.5, after the BRP-like adventure I'm currently running finishes, just because one of the guys wants to run something and has played lots of 3.5 previously and isn't confident of GM-ing a d100 game... My suggested selling point to both is that it is ‘elegant’, relatively simple and transparent, and well established and therefore robust. I worry that the new BRP book, fine though it is, may hide the system's simplicity (and hence elegance) due to sheer size. A short scenario could generate possible interest with new players. Yes, definitely. So I think an updated version of the original 16-page "Basic RolePlaying: An Introductory Guide", with bare-bones rules and a really short scenario or two could do the job. Less than 16 pages, preferably, and give it away free... Quote Britain has been infiltrated by soviet agents to the highest levels. They control the BBC, the main political party leaderships, NHS & local council executives, much of the police, most newspapers and the utility companies. Of course the EU is theirs, through-and-through. And they are among us - a pervasive evil, like Stasi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkheart Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 You kinda of want to be careful of what version of BRP you are running. While I am a great fan of Runequest 2nd ed I am seeing a number of flaws in it now that I am running it for a new group. This new group consists of One RQ veteren who was pushing for me to run the game. One rpg veteren who believe you can't beat AD&D 2nd ed rules compedium. One rpg beginner who has watched games more than played And lastly one 'whats the rpg thing' newbie. The most 'observatioins' have come from the complete newbie and the D&D player. RQ faults as we have been finding them Character creation - randomly rolled stats, narrow focused and unballanced previous experinece system, little to be done to tweek the character with quirks/abilities etc. Cults and Skills - I never noticed before how limited the number of non cult skills were available. This can limit people as much if not more than D&D classes. Learning through experience - While this is still one of the better skill reward systems out there, it is still a bit limited that using a skill succesfully once within a week is the same as using the skill 100 times within the week. The best response to the game has come from the two least experienced players. Probably because every gamers has their prefered system. I know i complain that i can learn how to climb ropes by beating a monster over the head with my sword when playing D&D. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason D Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 So I think an updated version of the original 16-page "Basic RolePlaying: An Introductory Guide", with bare-bones rules and a really short scenario or two could do the job. What a marvelous idea... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogspawner Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 What a marvelous idea... You're not saying "suggest it to Dustin", so do you mean there's one already underway...? Quote Britain has been infiltrated by soviet agents to the highest levels. They control the BBC, the main political party leaderships, NHS & local council executives, much of the police, most newspapers and the utility companies. Of course the EU is theirs, through-and-through. And they are among us - a pervasive evil, like Stasi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogspawner Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 RQ faults as we have been finding them Character creation - randomly rolled stats, narrow focused and unballanced previous experinece system, little to be done to tweek the character with quirks/abilities etc. Cults and Skills - I never noticed before how limited the number of non cult skills were available. This can limit people as much if not more than D&D classes. Learning through experience - While this is still one of the better skill reward systems out there, it is still a bit limited that using a skill succesfully once within a week is the same as using the skill 100 times within the week. If these really bother you, they can solved pretty easily with a few house-rules. You could import things from BRP: points-buy for stats, more balanced profession templates, fun distinctive features and maybe even a personality trait or two (though they're for NPCs, strictly). I'm sure there are more skills too. (But to my mind the worst thing about classes is they are artificial: In BRP/RQ your character is a person with skills (like the RW), but in D&D they are just a stick of rock with Ranger/Rogue/Bard/Cavalier/whatever written through the middle). The skill-rewards thing is tricky, but having tried several variations over the years I still come back to it. Multiple ticks (sorry, experience checks) per skill lead to combat skills racing away - and non-combat should be encouraged, unless all you want to do is hack-and-slash. Maybe allow up to 2/3 ticks, but just for 2nd/3rd chances at the one increase roll (not multiple increases)? Alternatively just consider that there are a lot more rolls in combat than for Persuade, Navigate, Ride (or whatever) simply because the system for combat is a lot more detailed - players being interested in that sort of thing! Would they want combats resolved by a single Opposed Roll on one weapon skill? I doubt it. I know i complain that i can learn how to climb ropes by beating a monster over the head with my sword when playing D&D. Thanks for reminding me of this one! I must quote it at every opportunity... Quote Britain has been infiltrated by soviet agents to the highest levels. They control the BBC, the main political party leaderships, NHS & local council executives, much of the police, most newspapers and the utility companies. Of course the EU is theirs, through-and-through. And they are among us - a pervasive evil, like Stasi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Tar Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 You're not saying "suggest it to Dustin", so do you mean there's one already underway...? From Jason's blog, I'm hoping his "secret" BRP projects are just this, plus a referee's screen. I'm REALLY hoping for the latter. Quote 132/420 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarulf Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 And I was speculating it was RQIII style magic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RosenMcStern Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 Character creation - randomly rolled stats, narrow focused and unballanced previous experinece system, little to be done to tweek the character with quirks/abilities etc. Let characters distribute stats from a pre-determined point pool. Let them roll one more die and drop the lowest die. Let them swap rolls. Do as you like. Character creation is just a guideline in BRP - adjust it to your taste. Cults and Skills - I never noticed before how limited the number of non cult skills were available. This can limit people as much if not more than D&D classes. This is a RQ2 limitation. All other BRP variations do not suffer from it. Ever wondered why there have been three new editions of RQ (ok, one was never published, let's say two) after RQ2? Maybe some problems were solved in them. Learning through experience - While this is still one of the better skill reward systems out there, it is still a bit limited that using a skill succesfully once within a week is the same as using the skill 100 times within the week. Add one additional tick per extra successful use if character does something really heroic (frex criticals). When improvement is rolled, add 5 to the die roll per each extra tick. Simple and not too disruptive. All in all, one of the beauties of BRP is that you do not have to adhere strictly to the rules, especially WRT character creation and development, and there are dozens of already-tested variations you can use. Quote Proud member of the Evil CompetitionTM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason D Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 Can we take it that means you're of the 'convert existing gamers' school? I think that BRP has a dual-fold strength - some name-brand recognition among the existing gamer population, and an ease and flexibility of use that serve it well as an introductory game. I am stupefied when I see people trying to characterize D&D as an "entry-level" game. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason D Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 You're not saying "suggest it to Dustin", so do you mean there's one already underway...? I am not saying anything. From Jason's blog, I'm hoping his "secret" BRP projects are just this, plus a referee's screen. I'm REALLY hoping for the latter. I am not working on a referee's screen. There's not much writing involved there, and that would come from Chaosium. And I was speculating it was RQIII style magic I am not working on a magic book. No core rules or rules expansions for me for a long while. There are only so many hours in a day, and I'm balancing a full-time job, some other freelance, a novel, and being a husband and father. And my wife is after me to write a teleplay or screenplay for the Austin Film Festival next month... I'm swamped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarulf Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 I am not working on a magic book. No core rules or rules expansions for me for a long while. I can see that with the main BRP book near store shelves, you feel you've had enough of core rules for a while. But I'd be very surprised if a magic book doesn't appear from someone, sometime. This forum is full of writers it seems, one can hope one of them caves and writes it. :focus: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogspawner Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 I am not saying anything. Good - twice. The fewer words the better in this case. I am stupefied when I see people trying to characterize D&D as an "entry-level" game. And who's the Man to show 'em what 'entry level' should really be about? :thumb: This is a RQ2 limitation. All other BRP variations do not suffer from it. Ever wondered why there have been three new editions of RQ (ok, one was never published, let's say two) after RQ2? Maybe some problems were solved in them. Hang on... RQ3, RQ4/AiG(unpublished), and... oh, I get it. Nah, the other one mostly introduced problems. Quote Britain has been infiltrated by soviet agents to the highest levels. They control the BBC, the main political party leaderships, NHS & local council executives, much of the police, most newspapers and the utility companies. Of course the EU is theirs, through-and-through. And they are among us - a pervasive evil, like Stasi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickMiddleton Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 I can see that with the main BRP book near store shelves, you feel you've had enough of core rules for a while. I noticed Jason said: I am not working on a magic book. No core rules or rules expansions for me for a long while. (my emphasis)... :thumb: But I'd be very surprised if a magic book doesn't appear from someone, sometime. This forum is full of writers it seems, one can hope one of them caves and writes it. :focus: To be honest, I have both RQIII and the BRP monographs - I'm writing up one thing at present using the BRP monographs as a reference and that'll have to do for the moment. As for the quick start / intro idea - we did discuss it in the Play test group IIRC and it's clearly a good idea - in some ways what would be really cool would be to have several brief scenarios with pre-gens to show case the system in different genres / styles... If you haven't seen it before, take a look at the Call of Cthulhu quick start rules which is a pretty good illustration of what can be done. Cheers, Nick Middleton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogspawner Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 If you haven't seen it before, take a look at the Call of Cthulhu quick start rules which is a pretty good illustration of what can be done. Where? A-ha! What a grotesque and blasphemously cyclopean bulk! 22 pages?? I'm sure it's quality stuff (I'll read it later) but can no-one at Chaosium edit? I think 4, or 8 tops, would be more like it... Something to give away free, something to put through all the neigbourhood's letter-boxes... (ok, perhaps not Cthulhu, in that case!) Quote Britain has been infiltrated by soviet agents to the highest levels. They control the BBC, the main political party leaderships, NHS & local council executives, much of the police, most newspapers and the utility companies. Of course the EU is theirs, through-and-through. And they are among us - a pervasive evil, like Stasi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NickMiddleton Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 Where? A-ha! What a grotesque and blasphemously cyclopean bulk! 22 pages?? I'm sure it's quality stuff (I'll read it later) but can no-one at Chaosium edit? I think 4, or 8 tops, would be more like it... Something to give away free, something to put through all the neighbourhood's letter-boxes... (ok, perhaps not Cthulhu, in that case!) *shrug* GURPS lite for 4th edition GURPS is 32 pages and includes no scenario. In the Cthulhu quick start the actual rules bit is pages 5 - 11. Pages 12 to 19 are the classic scenario "The Haunting", revised for novice Keepers, and the rest is the usual padding (Cover, blank character sheet, details of other Chaosium products). I'm not sure what you were expecting, but I think Ben Monroe and William Jones did a bang-up job of distilling the core rules of that game and sprucing up a classic scenario for new players, and they do it in 14 pages (ignoring padding), including a scenario such that you genuinely could run the game with just the quick start - not something that's possible with say GURPS lite. Cheers, Nick Middleton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trifletraxor Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 4 pages for a system? That's just not do-able. Even 16 is short. :cool: SGL. Quote Ef plest master, this mighty fine grub! 116/420. High Priest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frogspawner Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 Challenge accepted! But I'm busy now, and away for the weekend... Quote Britain has been infiltrated by soviet agents to the highest levels. They control the BBC, the main political party leaderships, NHS & local council executives, much of the police, most newspapers and the utility companies. Of course the EU is theirs, through-and-through. And they are among us - a pervasive evil, like Stasi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarulf Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 I noticed Jason said: (my emphasis)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darkheart Posted April 10, 2008 Share Posted April 10, 2008 Let characters distribute stats from a pre-determined point pool. Let them roll one more die and drop the lowest die. Let them swap rolls. Do as you like. Character creation is just a guideline in BRP - adjust it to your taste. It's the toss up between point buy mini maxing vs random stats. I've used a few diferent ideas in the past. This last time I gave characters extra points for low rolls that they could distribute where ever they wanted. This ended up with people with still crap rolls but with DEX of 16-18. Add one additional tick per extra successful use if character does something really heroic (frex criticals). When improvement is rolled, add 5 to the die roll per each extra tick. Simple and not too disruptive. I like this idea. I like it I does. I reckon I shall impliment it in the current game. All in all, one of the beauties of BRP is that you do not have to adhere strictly to the rules, especially WRT character creation and development, and there are dozens of already-tested variations you can use. Pretty much every RPG says the same thing. Getting back into RQ though after a few years off I wanted to just go straight from the book. I'm hoping the new BRP has some decent new idea to pull from to counter some of the issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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