Prax and the thousand questions about the place.

[Harrek]

Hello everyone,

I been stalking this forum for a long time but now I have a question to make on my own. First, a short introduction to my question. My game group has been playing in and around Pavis for many years. The campaign is quite heroic nowadays, and we have played at least 100 sessions (including about 10 heroquests) so far. One of the PC's is a hero of Valind. Yes, a hero of Valind in Pavis/Prax. The character was a novice level PC in the previous campaign set in Dorastor, and started a new life in Pavis as a refugee.

The climate of Pavis has already been altered by the presence of this PC hero. However, the character has planned to diminish the temperature further and bring a real winter to Pavis.

After a short introduction, my question is why Pavis/Prax is actually a warm place? I mean mythical reasons. Everything in Glorantha is the way it is because of some mythic deeds/deities are causing it. So, what lies behind the warm temperature of Prax?

Urox is strong in the Wastes. Urox is the violent, warm and unpredictable wind. Is that the reason?

How to make a Valind heroquest about all this? Any suggestions? Valind and Urox are associated cults, so there might be a little problem. A Valind heroquest certainly envolves kicking somebody's ass...

To clarify a bit more, the aim of the quest is to alter the climate of Pavis/Pavis County specifically, not necessarily the climate of all Prax/the Wastes.

[Joerg]

There is already the White Princess, the Inora-related spirit of Darkness which causes local night frosts, with the beneficient side effect that her going away leaves humidity behind.

Further out on the plains, a hero of Valind might be regarded as an ally of the evil (Pentan) horse riders who claims contested parts of Genert's Wastes for the horse riders, as the Snow Line forms the divide between the Beast Riders and the horse nomads. (I wonder if there is some sort of agreement between the Pentan and the Praxian spirits behind this...)

Storm Bull is a disruptive cult, kicking everybody's ass (except Chalana or Little Brother at times) is his job. Valind (and Gagarth) as a son of Vadrus doesn't really care to please, either.

There are ice fields high in the (giant) mountains, so we know that the White Princess is an ally of the giants, and by extension, Valind too.

Why are Genert's Wastes considered to be a warm place? First and foremost, it receives warmth from the coastal current that spawns off the Sshorg current, fed by the boiling waters of the Togaro. The undisturbed climate of the Zola Fel valley is actually quite clement and humid, and only the Storm Bull influence with its dry spells changes this.

There is little evidence for geothermal activity (Lodril) anywhere in the Wastes. The Crater Lakes east of Dagori Inkarth are the only such place I can recall offhand. Still, the concept of Genert's Garden in the Golden Age implies pleasant temperatures.

[Harrek]

Thanks for the reply. So, "Evil" Valind hero might bring the coldness of the Pentan horse riders to Prax and Pavis, which would be seen as a very hostile act by the beast riders. This could be done by bringing the worship of Valind to Prax in the form of some Pentan allies, for example. This would provoke HUGE resistance among all Praxian tribes, so not a good option.

Then there is Inora of course, who is the source of cold frost in the Wastes. While his father invaded the World (he reached at least Rockwood Mountains), his daughter Inora was invading Prax from the mountain tops she was born. Valind could once again come to Rockwood Mountains in the form of this Valind hero. This Valind hero could alter the myth so, that it is Valind this time who comes to invade Prax, not Inora. Or he comes with Inora. There might be something for a heroquest. The only problem is, that we have already played a heroquest which was a variation of Drepnir quest (http://adrr.com/hero/ten.htm). So, I try to find some new angle.

Then we have the sea current option. What are the sea currents in Glorantha? Are they natural phenomenon caused by the warmth differences in different seas? I mean how and why they work? I had a vision of some kind of water dragons(the currents), which could be beaten so that the source of the warm air in Prax could be suppressed. There the only problem is that my own PC, an orlanthi hero, just finished Orlanth and Aroka Quest with rest of the players, and it's all about beating a sea dragon.

As a conclusion, maybe the best option for a playable and fresh heroquest (as they always should be) is some kind of mixture with Valind, Inora and giants in it. The Valind hero already has some giants as followers. Any ideas are welcome...  

[Joerg]

While discussing sea currents under the heading of Prax might be a bit off-topic, the original invasion by Sshorg(a) the Blue Dragon aka Nestentos was first resolved by Vadrus, Valind's daddy, in a quest that served as the template for Orlanth's and Barntar's quests to combat Daga (a nephew of Valind, btw). (And Inora would be his aunt, rather than his daughter - unless Valind mated with grandma Kero Fin.)

Sshorg is a child of Togaro, and carries the hot waters in from south of Pamaltela where even the water burns. (Thankfully it didn't bring in Firebergs..) By the time the first river creeps up Ernaldela, much of that heat may already have been spent. Still, we are looking for a myth about a deity losing heat...

We have heard about the tragical opposite, Qualyorni the Cold One losing its signature cold, creating the hot trolls of the Errinoru jungle. Pamalt, champion of the hot lands of the south, did this, by wounding the invader.

The trouble is - Sshorg(a)/Nestentos is the parent of Seolinthur, the ancestor of the rivers of Genert's Garden. Seolinthur (and its child Zola Fel) ran uphill in that mythic age, same as Sshorg. Anything preventing the spawning of Seolinthur would create mythical trouble of great dimension.

We don't know about the birth of Seolinthur, though - probably lost along with many other myths about the creation of the things in Genert's Garden. But one likely scenario could be that someone wounded Sshorg(a)'s right flank, and a mighty but still lesser river parted from its parent, searching its own course into the lands of Genert. A possibility, at least. Now, to make sure that causing this wound makes the river spill its heat? (A thought - some giants might remember the myth, even if the survivors from Genert's Garden don't. Getting a workable story out of them might be an adventure in itself. And they, too, ought to like getting a dragon shown its limits.)

Maybe ask Inora or Zorak Zoran - between these two, Yelmalio got rid of his fire ability, and remains as (unquenchable) light without heat or flame.

The Rozgali is part of the later invasion of the seas, but carries on the course and the source of its waters. Its precedessor even choked some of the giant mountains when Vingkot's kingdom was an island attacked by the seas. And while Orlanth beat back Worcha, the raging child of this sea and a number of others, it was Valind's glacier which helped end the floodings by binding up all that water. That could be done with a drinking contest quest where Valind cheats by freezing most of the beverage offered to him solid. (That also leaves any alcoholic beverages a lot more potent, leaving room for amusing side stories about getting drunk stupid, and creating a somewhat different challenge for your hero.)

Ok, in modern Prax/Genert's Wastes there rarely is a problem with too much water, but occasionally, that's the case, and highly feared by the Praxians. In such a situation, playing out this freezing myth might be regarded as helpful.

 

 

[metcalph]

6 hours ago, Joerg said:

While discussing sea currents under the heading of Prax might be a bit off-topic, the original invasion by Sshorg(a) the Blue Dragon aka Nestentos was first resolved by Vadrus, Valind's daddy, in a quest that served as the template for Orlanth's and Barntar's quests to combat Daga (a nephew of Valind, btw). (And Inora would be his aunt, rather than his daughter - unless Valind mated with grandma Kero Fin.)

I don't think Vadrus fought with Enshokons in Dragon Pass.  Rather I think he fought her in Fronela giving rise to the Janube.

 

Quote

The trouble is - Sshorg(a)/Nestentos is the parent of Seolinthur, the ancestor of the rivers of Genert's Garden. Seolinthur (and its child Zola Fel) ran uphill in that mythic age, same as Sshorg. Anything preventing the spawning of Seolinthur would create mythical trouble of great dimension.

 

 

Sshorgs is a name that only occurs in Belintar's syncretic mythology and should be avoided in favour of Aroka.  While Nestentos can be identified as Aroka, I think that such an identification can only be made in Peloria after which the differences becomes too great.

[Noita]

On 2 Feb 2016 at 9:27 PM, Harrek said:

Hello everyone,

I been stalking this forum for a long time but now I have a question to make on my own. First, a short introduction to my question. My game group has been playing in and around Pavis for many years. The campaign is quite heroic nowadays, and we have played at least 100 sessions (including about 10 heroquests) so far. One of the PC's is a hero of Valind. Yes, a hero of Valind in Pavis/Prax. The character was a novice level PC in the previous campaign set in Dorastor, and started a new life in Pavis as a refugee.

The climate of Pavis has already been altered by the presence of this PC hero. However, the character has planned to diminish the temperature further and bring a real winter to Pavis.

After a short introduction, my question is why Pavis/Prax is actually a warm place? I mean mythical reasons. Everything in Glorantha is the way it is because of some mythic deeds/deities are causing it. So, what lies behind the warm temperature of Prax?

Urox is strong in the Wastes. Urox is the violent, warm and unpredictable wind. Is that the reason?

How to make a Valind heroquest about all this? Any suggestions? Valind and Urox are associated cults, so there might be a little problem. A Valind heroquest certainly envolves kicking somebody's ass...

To clarify a bit more, the aim of the quest is to alter the climate of Pavis/Pavis County specifically, not necessarily the climate of all Prax/the Wastes.

So who are you planning to be the opposition in this heroquest? Your hero sure picked a place to rest up in!

I think I might incorporate some of this in to my own campaign. Hints of weather change, worried locals. My party are on their way to Pavis soon, so keep us posted on what is going on in your game please

[Noita]

P92 of Pavis Gateway to adventure mentions the tent village of Far End. Where is it located, I can't find it on the map?

[metcalph]

41 minutes ago, Iskallor said:

P92 of Pavis Gateway to adventure mentions the tent village of Far End. Where is it located, I can't find it on the map?

It's off the northern edge of the map on p92 and can be seen on the map on p56. 

[Noita]

Cheers. 

[David Scott]

The most obvious reason that the Wastes are warm, is due to what Oakfed did. He burnt the forests and the survivors fed the remainders to him, He also crashed down onto what is now the Monkey Ruins. In the Spirit world there is the burning area called Fireground that reflects that. There's now also much less water to offset the heat and Storm Bull hovering over the centre doesn't help as he's no water powers. Orlanth's presence is only felt at the Sartar edge, and Heler doesn't get a look in. (

On 3 February 2016 at 4:52 AM, Joerg said:

Why are Genert's Wastes considered to be a warm place? First and foremost, it receives warmth from the coastal current that spawns off the Sshorg current, fed by the boiling waters of the Togaro.

Hmm sounds a bit Godlearner to me. The oceans had no effect on the Wastes as the land rose up, defenders Shore and all that. I can't see them having an effect now. Next thing you'll be saying that is that there's a climate:-)

Edited February 4, 2016 by David Scott
Oakfed not Lodril!

[Joerg]

24 minutes ago, David Scott said:

On 3.2.2016 at 5:52 AM, Joerg said:

Why are Genert's Wastes considered to be a warm place? First and foremost, it receives warmth from the coastal current that spawns off the Sshorg current, fed by the boiling waters of the Togaro.

Hmm sounds a bit Godlearner to me. The oceans had no effect on the Wastes as the land rose up, defenders Shore and all that. I can't see them having an effect now. Next thing you'll be saying that is that there's a climate:-)

The ocean currents have been designed to create that climate. Don't you dare undo Greg's painstaking attention to such detail in his world building!

Most of the fire damage to the Redwood savannah was done by Oakfed, in the long and bitter cold dark. Of course you will find echoes of the savannah burning in the spirit world, but these are balanced by the bitter cold before and afterwards.

Neither the Monkey Ruins nor the Crater Lakes are really deep into Genert's Garden, and rather close to the major mountain ranges (Storm Mountains and Rockwoods) which have some sons of Lodril among their peaks. I don't see the Men-and-a-half profit much from this Fireground, either, and they should.

No, before Tolat disrupted the sky dome by crashing Umath into the northern support, Genert's Garden had the same pleasant conditions as Murharzarm's Empire. Seolinthur provided warm waters after branching off from Sshorg/Nestentos, Yamsur provided the sunlight, everyone was well-fed and knew no thirst.

Valind changed that when his glacier overran Peloria, the northern parts of the Garden now known as Pent, and insignificant islands in the far west. His advance was broken by the chaos invasion from the north, but his presence remained quite a bit before receding. The implosion of the Spike re-invigorated the seas south of the Garden, and brought fresh warmth to the coasts of the Garden. Nobody can say how long it took, but after Oakfed's fire had proved its impotence to push away the cold when all the fuel was consumed, it was up to the seas to bring back the warmth that belonged in Genert's lands, and up to Orlanth's storm to steal it from the seas and distribute it into the adjacent lands.

Valind never gained a foothold in the southern parts of Genert's Garden (with the exception of the Windstop covering Prax in 1621/22). But IMO neither did Lodril, except at the western edges.

[soltakss]

 

Quote

After a short introduction, my question is why Pavis/Prax is actually a warm place? I mean mythical reasons. Everything in Glorantha is the way it is because of some mythic deeds/deities are causing it. So, what lies behind the warm temperature of Prax?

Urox is strong in the Wastes. Urox is the violent, warm and unpredictable wind. Is that the reason?

How to make a Valind heroquest about all this? Any suggestions? Valind and Urox are associated cults, so there might be a little problem. A Valind heroquest certainly envolves kicking somebody's ass...

To clarify a bit more, the aim of the quest is to alter the climate of Pavis/Pavis County specifically, not necessarily the climate of all Prax/the Wastes.

 

 

 

 

 

I would guess that Urox sits in his storm and blows Valind/Vadrus away.

In my Glorantha, I run the Winterfall HeroQuest, where the forces of Winter (Valind, Inora, Himile, various minor Storm Gods) come down from the Rockwoods to the north and invade Prax, but are fought off by a variety of people (Urox, Little Brother, Yelmalio, Lodril, various minor Praxian Heroes). In my current campaign, the Lunars took Little Brother's place as Orlanth was Dead, so the PCs stood in Little Brother's place, but on the Winter's side, bringing winter to Prax. They rationalised it by saying that Orlanth blows hot and cold.

 

You could find out why Prax/Pavis is warm and then counter that specifically. If there was a Goddess of Summer who keeps the ground warm then Valind could kidnap her and take her away (this is what Valind loves doing). If Pavis did a HeroQuest, way back when, to make Pavis warmer, the PC could counter that HeroQuest, or HeroQuest against him. The PC could gain a boon from Urox, perhaps promising to go and kill some vast Chaos thing, in return for Urox staying away from the HeroQuest, or the PC could point Urox to a particularly nasty Chaos foe in the HeroQuest and let Urox fight the Chaos instead of Winter (particularly good fun if the PC summons the Chaos Monster himself).

 

ike this

•  

Edited February 4, 2016 by soltakss

[TRose]

3 hours ago, David Scott said:

The most obvious reason that the Wastes are warm, is due to what Lodril did. He burnt the forests and the survivors fed the remainders to him, He also crashed down onto what is now the Monkey Ruins. In the Spirit world there is the burning area called Fireground that reflects that. There's now also much less water to offset the heat and Storm Bull hovering over the centre doesn't help as he's no water powers. Orlanth's presence is only felt at the Sartar edge, and Heler doesn't get a look in. (

Hmm sounds a bit Godlearner to me. The oceans had no effect on the Wastes as the land rose up, defenders Shore and all that. I can't see them having an effect now. Next thing you'll be saying that is that there's a climate:-)

Thought it was Oakfed that burned the forest and the Monkey Ruins. Or is Oakfed and Lodril now one and the same?

[Noita]

Yeah it certainly used to be Oakfed that crashed in to the Monkey Ruins.

[David Scott]

Oops not Lodril, Oakfed (had my Agimori hat on for a minute)

[Harrek]

After a looong, long day in the work, I reply only shortly. Thanks for the many people who replied.

A little bit off-topic first (sorry).

About the campaign for Iskallor:  I try to give some updates about the heroquest, when it comes. It'll maybe take one year or something, because there's a lot to do in the campaign before it. And we play once per three weeks or something, because we all have the rush years of life going on (hectic job, at least one children etc.).

About the campaign in general: There are no lunars in Pavis or Prax anymore, they were defeated by Argrath Whitebull and player heroes. One PC is this Valind hero, who is originally from the Bilini land (a cousin of Halgrim), among the best warriors in all Prax, and a prominent figure in Pavis underworld. The temperature in Pavis is already few celsius degrees lower, if he's present in the city. Another PC is a Lanbrili hero, THE criminal mastermind of Pavis and Pavis County, he has an intelligence network which ridicules GImGim's former network and he has also a strong death rune connection (because the player liked to combine thefts, intelligence, murders etc.). One PC, now NPC, is the next head of Basmoli tribe and one of the most powerful shamans in the Wastelands, and now when the Lunars are gone, the self appointed "king" of Badside (which is under the control of Basmoli tribe now). The last PC is a Vanganthi hero who is the most powerful Orlanthi in Prax, one of the most dangerous warriors around and a very prominent military commander with army of followers. He's also really good speaker and has a mindset of Osama Bin Laden. They sport mostly in Pavis and Zola Fell Valley, but also elsewhere. The biggest threat after the Lunars are gone, is the chaos in Tunneled Hills and Krjallki Bog, beginning to show some "organized" signs. It is threatening the very existence of all that characters know. We played years in previous campaigns with HW/HQ1 rules, but in this campaign we use RQ3 rules with terrible amount of house rules.

Then back to the original question of mine:

The reason for the coming heroquest is not to oppose somebody, but to really just to lower the temperature in Pavis. The Valind hero will do it because he likes colder weather, because he can do it (being one of the most powerful warriors (or maybe the most powerful) in Wastelands), and because it will surely piss off certain people. And it surely will, because some traditional fruits etc. might die because of the lower temperature.

I like the Oakfed option, even if it's not the canonical reason for the warm weather. And, I also like Soltakss Winterfall heroquest. Maybe I'll have him do both someday in the future. Soltakss, do you happen to have something written about the Winterfall quest of yours?

Generally about Prax: 

We have made a huge amount of Pavis/Prax material, but unfortunately it's in Finnish. We have some nice maps (I haven't done them, so I can say I think they are excellent quality) about the region, but they are also in Finnish. I'm not sure what's the fan policy nowadays and I don't have time to read it. Just wondering if somebody would have some use for the material.

Thanks anyway for the replies, I got some nice ideas for the heroquest. I can also at least quess what is behind the warm weather of Prax/Wasteland. 

[TRose]

Speaking of cold, does the Stormwalk mountains between Prax and Heortland have any snow cover peaks? Or do they ever get covered with snow? I think it would be a good place to set up a few Valind worshipping Highland Clans,, who despise their Heartland cousins as wimps, the Orlanthi  Worshipping Wind Children as sheep stealing  scum(Never mind  sheep stealing is their favorite hobby.) And would love to raid the nomads ,except they have so few horses or other mounts.

[Joerg]

32 minutes ago, TRose said:

Speaking of cold, does the Stormwalk mountains between Prax and Heortland have any snow cover peaks? Or do they ever get covered with snow? I think it would be a good place to set up a few Valind worshipping Highland Clans,, who despise their Heartland cousins as wimps, the Orlanthi  Worshipping Wind Children as sheep stealing  scum(Never mind  sheep stealing is their favorite hobby.) And would love to raid the nomads ,except they have so few horses or other mounts.

The higher peaks have snow cover all year. Remember that short passage about the guy finding King Broyan and his followers frozen on a mountain peak? That was in the Storm(walk) Mountains. They also have wind children roosting high up, claiming some territory there.

Raiding the nomads: a lack of mounts would be the first thing to be amended by raids... there is little else the beast riders have worth taking, unless you happen to be in the slave trade.

[Patrick]

As an aside: if your PC manages to cool down Pavis County, the Big Rubble Trolls will be very happy, possibly more active in the region. In fact, they may help your PCs, even though Himile worship isn't common there. ZZ fighting Oakfed, maybe?

Oh, and you may ask the Morokanths about the Dark Eater, too...

[David Scott]

On 4 February 2016 at 10:17 PM, TRose said:

Speaking of cold, does the Stormwalk mountains between Prax and Heortland have any snow cover peaks? Or do they ever get covered with snow? 

Look at the picture on page 441 of the Guide.

[Noita]

What happened to the Guardians of the Left and of the Right in what is now the Big Rubble? Did the Iron man return to Tourney Altar and did the blue stone dragon fly off, or are they still there?

[David Scott]

14 hours ago, Iskallor said:

What happened to the Guardians of the Left and of the Right in what is now the Big Rubble? Did the Iron man return to Tourney Altar and did the blue stone dragon fly off, or are they still there?

Firstly I would say their position as guardians is clearly down to Pavis doing some deals with the Dragonewts and Humakt cult in setting up the city and protecting it. As Guardians they clearly ended up doing a bad job of protecting Pavis. I would suggest that the Guardian of the Right - The Iron Man, went back to Tourney Altar, but returned when Dorosar setup New Pavis and is now in the Humakt Temple there. I would suggest that the Guardian of the Left remained where it was - everyone too scared of it to touch it until the Dragonewts Dream. Then it became alive and move to the ruined Dragonewt temple. When the temple was restored, it remained, protecting it.

[Noita]

Who and what is the Dawn Beast?

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, Iskallor said:

Who and what is the Dawn Beast?

It is one of the spirits added to Nomad Gods when Stephen Martin adapted the old Chaosium boardgame to the rules of Wulf Corbett for the French edition.

The translation guide places it among the Great Magic units alongside Genert's Eye, the Unsleeping Dog, the War Arrows Medicine Bundle and the Portable Oasis. While these units don't appear to have much in common, I recall discussing a "Reconstructing Genert" scenario at the time.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Joerg
looked it up on the web

[Noita]

Was there a picture/counter of it? 

A player in my game has mentioned she would like to run in to it at sometime.