ZWEIHÄNDER

[jux]

Here is another game that is part of D100 family - ZWEIHÄNDER Grim & Perilous RPG. In short it is Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay retroclone. I am surprised there is so little talk about it, as it seems kind of amazing. After skimming through the early access PDF, I notice it's mostly traditional BRP, but some innovations here and there too, like skill system.

And ohh boy, it's a tome. More than 600 pages, cram packed with content - it has everything! It starts to feel too big, but has a weird attraction as well.

This game was Kickstarted last year and will be finished this year, but it is still possible to pre-order it.

http://grimandperilous.com/?page_id=8

Pay what you want early access PDF:
http://www.drivethrurpg.com/product/192264/ZWEIHNDER-Grim--Perilous-RPG-Early-Access-Core-Rules

[Sean_RDP]

Interesting video they have their. I expected Ramsey Bolton to come looking to flay me. 

[fulk]

Yeah.  I went in on the Kickstarter.  I always liked WHFRP2.  Zweihander looks fun.  Can't wait.

[jux]

Yeah, but the rules are finalized. The Kickstarter is for new layout, art and print - if I understood it correctly. I wonder how people here like it, compared BRP system.

[Sean_RDP]

Honestly this feels like a cross between WHFP and Rolemaster. It is really for a specific kind of group or when your group just has a taste for something this heavy. I do not think it is bad, but wow does it have a lot of stuff packed into it.

[Simlasa]

What I've seen of it doesn't seem much like WFRP. It keeps trying to sell that aspect, but without Warhammer's setting... meh.

Maybe when it's finally out I'll get a look at it and find more to love.

[Rhialto the Marvellous]

More than 600 pages? Way more than too much for a game, for me, but good luck to them.

[HaganeHebi]

6 hours ago, Simlasa said:

What I've seen of it doesn't seem much like WFRP. It keeps trying to sell that aspect, but without Warhammer's setting... meh.

Maybe when it's finally out I'll get a look at it and find more to love.

Well, they are selling it as a settingless toolbox, and given that it is basically a WFRP retroclone with the numbers filed off (and some streamlining of the more creaky parts of its ancestor's system) you should be able to graft and bolt all the WFRP lore and stuff on the system without too much issues. The final book will likely also come in at under the public beta's 600 page count, as the remaining work until release is mainly editing and layout if I understood correctly.

WFRP was and is my first RPG love, so I backed the project asap as it's nice to know I'll have a largely familiar yet updated and streamlined system to continue playing in my beloved setting. And it's always nice to have a fallback option if the 4th edition by Cubicle 7 turns out to be a loathsome abomination like FFG's turd of a 3rd edition was.

[Rhialto the Marvellous]

A roughly 600-page "settingless toolbox"? Well, thanks for the clarification: still wish them luck, but now I know to steer far clear of it, much as I liked the system in WFRP 1st & 2nd (and you were too kind to 3rd ).

[jux]

I have the same feeling - 600 pages is just too much. It's for a full time gamer, which I do not have a privilege to be. But I really like the art/layout in the Kickstarter/updated version. Reading the early access PDF, it seems to be very 'wordy'. It is evocative, but there is so much descriptive text that is so obvious and at the same time, sometimes there are important rules mixed. It is nice book to read first time, but very bad to use as a reference book. I think this game would have benefited much if it had a player (character creating, core mechanics), GM book (other rules like corruption, hazards, monsters, etc).

I wish the Renaissance RPG had similar "theme" - layout, artwork, atmosphere. But same light and thin system.

Edited January 30, 2017 by jux

[Nikoli]

I played wfrp 1 and 2, and have Zweihander. (Z) I've yet to read it all.

My issue is that it has great ideas, but that it seems a little too gamey for combat. (I'm not a fan of maneuvres, etc., at variable action points. I don't like how Z feels at present as I simulate combat in my mind while reading it. Seems clunky.) I ended up getting Magic World as it was elegant and quick as a GM, but also as a way to introduce new players. But I imagine I'll take ideas from Zweihander, like the 'flip to succeed' mechanic. (E.g., if advantaged, you can read either d10 as the tens when you roll under.) The professions have nifty unique abilities, too, which can be ported over.

My aim right now is to use Magic World in Warhammer. It's easy to model The Enemy Within campaign, I find, with Magic World/BRP. Including NPCs. Zweihander is interesting, and I'm still reading it (!), but it seems a lot of work for all involved. It's more complicated than wfrp 1 and 2, but in a way that seems awkward at present. (It made me miss the simple elegance of wfrp 1, yet that's what it was a homage to. I eventually discovered that BRP/Magic World/Runequest III can recreate warhammer more easily, but with the realism I want and freedom from rigid percentile limits.) I may change my mind in the near future. 

Zweihander is certainly an interesting tome, but a demanding read. I'm still following it and related publications (like the tarot-sized spell cards) with interest. 

Nikoli

[Nick J.]

It's a beautiful book, has a nice bestiary with great old-school art, lots of flavor, and some interesting concepts and conceits, but my god this thing is so over-written. It badly needed an editor with a merciless red pen to omit the reams of cruft.

At this point all I can envision is stealing bits from it to use in other games like Renaissance, but actually trying to digest this thing and get the people I play with, excited doesn't seem likely.

[DavetheLost]

I have Z. I took a look at 600 page pdf, closed the window and never looked back. The old school art is nice, some of the ideas are good, but 600 pages is way beyond my limit these days.

I might go half that for rules and setting. That assumes a fair bit of white space, illustrations, decent sized font, and core rules simple enough that I don't need to open the book often during play.

[smiorgan]

On 27/1/2017 at 11:46 PM, jux said:

More than 600 pages, cram packed with content - it has everything! It starts to feel too big, but has a weird attraction as well.

RPG rulebooks are getting way too long for me!  WHFRP1  was 368 pages with a ton of setting info and a scenario.

By the way,  even with the extensive setting info it contains, I would have preferred my CoC 7 Keeper's book 1/3 shorter than it is. It's a wordy book.

 

[Sean_RDP]

Five years ago I would have said the day of the campaign that runs for two years is dead and not likely to return save for the dusty nostalgia corners of the FLGS. In truth it never went away but gaming changed, we all saw it, and there does not seem time for all the games.

BUT, I was wrong. I am not sure I would say the pendulum is ever swinging back all the way but long term campaigns are being talked about more, now, than they were a few years ago.  So while Z might be a bit much for folks, even those of us used to wordy books, I suspect those intrigued by the possibilities of getting in depth might really dig it. For me, while I would not run a game of Z once a week, I certainly would run it once a month with people who were interested.,