Atgxtg Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 On 7/12/2020 at 5:23 AM, RogerDee said: Honestly, why make it all super difficult with tons of skills etc? It just needs to be points build, all the way. Stats, trim them down you only need: Str, End, Dex / Reflexes, Willpower Interesting, but not really BRP anymore, is it? I think the core BRP/RQ/Stormbringer game mechanics worked well for for for Stormbringer, except that the armor scores will a bit on the low side. The game could do with a bit of tweaking with the magic system and cultural notes to better fit the Young Kingdoms and EC overall Eternal Champion mythos. Maybe port over some sort of Hero Point mechanic to give the main characters a touch of "script immunity". Theleb K'aarna probably wouldn't be able to make all his escapes in game play without something like that. Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerDee Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Atgxtg said: Interesting, but not really BRP anymore, is it? I think the core BRP/RQ/Stormbringer game mechanics worked well for for for Stormbringer, except that the armor scores will a bit on the low side. The game could do with a bit of tweaking with the magic system and cultural notes to better fit the Young Kingdoms and EC overall Eternal Champion mythos. Maybe port over some sort of Hero Point mechanic to give the main characters a touch of "script immunity". Theleb K'aarna probably wouldn't be able to make all his escapes in game play without something like that. What is not BRP for you anymore in this? Edited July 13, 2020 by RogerDee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 40 minutes ago, RogerDee said: What is not BRP for you anymore in this? Several Things: points build, all the way. [So far only Superworld has gone that route for BR, partly because they were trying to see if they could mimic Champions with the BRP rules. I'm not sure a point buy method would really help Strombringer much. The only ones who really need particular stats in old SB were sorcerers, and since category modifiers were dropped from Elric! onward, the differences between stat points is much less significant] Str, End, Dex / Reflexes, Willpower [is a far cry from STR, CON, SIZ, INT, POW, DEX, and APP/CHA, used in every BRP based RPG . I don't really see a reason for the change in naming nor any real advantage in dropping SIZ and INT. Even CHA was a useful stat in Stombringer. Reducing the number of characteristics will just lead to the missing stats being factored into the remaining ones, which will limit our flexibility. Big animals and creatures will; have to have incredibly high CON scores to remain tough to kill] Skills in levels Novice, Journeyman, Professional, Expert, Master) instead of Percentile ratings (unless you meant the levels to correspond to & ratings, and only used as a tool to streamline chargen. IMO one thing we could do along these lines would be to treat each "level" in a skill as a multiple of a stat. For instance Sword cost be based on DEX and/or STR and be at say 2xSTAT for a Novice, 4x for a Journeyman and so forth. Or even a set Percentage plus a stat, such as Novice 20%+STAT, Journeyman 45%+STAT, Professional 60%+STAT, Expert 75%+STAT, and Master 80%+STAT. That would make the stats more useful.) I think I can see what you want to do, with simplification, but I also think we want to keep this true to the general spirit and format of BRP. Unless people really want to divert from the core system. There are advantages to doing something differently than in the past too. But how much are most people willing to divert from the current ruleset. Minor tweak or major overhaul? 2 Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerDee Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Atgxtg said: Several Things: points build, all the way. [So far only Superworld has gone that route for BR, partly because they were trying to see if they could mimic Champions with the BRP rules. I'm not sure a point buy method would really help Strombringer much. The only ones who really need particular stats in old SB were sorcerers, and since category modifiers were dropped from Elric! onward, the differences between stat points is much less significant] Str, End, Dex / Reflexes, Willpower [is a far cry from STR, CON, SIZ, INT, POW, DEX, and APP/CHA, used in every BRP based RPG . I don't really see a reason for the change in naming nor any real advantage in dropping SIZ and INT. Even CHA was a useful stat in Stombringer. Reducing the number of characteristics will just lead to the missing stats being factored into the remaining ones, which will limit our flexibility. Big animals and creatures will; have to have incredibly high CON scores to remain tough to kill] Skills in levels Novice, Journeyman, Professional, Expert, Master) instead of Percentile ratings (unless you meant the levels to correspond to & ratings, and only used as a tool to streamline chargen. IMO one thing we could do along these lines would be to treat each "level" in a skill as a multiple of a stat. For instance Sword cost be based on DEX and/or STR and be at say 2xSTAT for a Novice, 4x for a Journeyman and so forth. Or even a set Percentage plus a stat, such as Novice 20%+STAT, Journeyman 45%+STAT, Professional 60%+STAT, Expert 75%+STAT, and Master 80%+STAT. That would make the stats more useful.) I think I can see what you want to do, with simplification, but I also think we want to keep this true to the general spirit and format of BRP. Unless people really want to divert from the core system. There are advantages to doing something differently than in the past too. But how much are most people willing to divert from the current ruleset. Minor tweak or major overhaul? Didn't Runequest or one of the D100 engines also have point buy, fairly sure they did.... Anyhow, look at Revolution dropping Siz, pointless attribute and not relevant and replaced with Build now. App is a nothing attribute either really, and can be covered in traits. Cha - well this is irrelevant too, as how well you come across is symptomatic of how you role play. And should it come to contest, a simple WP would cover that, or skill in oratory. The skills levels are as you mentioned, to demonstrate % levels in skills, just removes the in between values, and yes to streamline chargen. So a professional would have 75% in a particular skill. AT that point they deserve the 'professional' status at this point having taken considerable time to achieve. This also allows for those that want to go beyond 100% (I mean who doesn't want that lol). Something I do like about Age system is when you pick a specialisation / profession - again something also done in BRP to some extent, and certainly in old RQ. So if someone were to pick a level in their profession, their skills would match. This does not account for those instances where say someone wants to play a fighter (pick an occupation really) that may be a bit rubbish at one of the skills. A good example of simplified chargen is Pulp Cthulhu - in fact this demonstrates it rather well. Pick Archetype, Occupation, and Talents. Extremely simplified. Basic and quick, how all chargen should be. And this might be 7e Cthulhu, but it is still BRP at its core. Personally, I see no reason not to give both options, small tweaks or major overhauls. Give players the choice to decide how to run their own game. Lets' look at magic - it is has not changed really in years and was never great to begin with. This is why I have Cantrips (similar to Mythras / BRP Classic fantasy), then there are spells. My addition is to stick on Arcana (again stealing from Age here), which are areas of magic - whether fire, water, digital, etc. And what a player can do should be purely limited by their ability to shape that energy. Wanna throw a fireball, great, create a wall of fire, go for it. Please bear in mind, these tweaks are more geared towards creating a more cinematic game, which is something Stormbringer should be. An Eternal Champion reminds me of Lords of Gossamer in some ways. They are travelling the multiverse to explore and sample its riches, and set things back on track. their journeys may take them to a Sword and Sorcery world, or to Star Trek, or Star Wars. And it needs to cope with the transition. On a side note I read few RQ, Cthulhu rpgs, and a few other things and actually went and created my own combined multiverse with both in it. I enjoyed this exercise as it was great fun! Not only that I feel the rules need to take into account different metaphysics too. Hawkmoon has scientific magic in the rpg Call of Cthulhu is very much the same. Runequest is just straight up Harry Potter magic, and slaps physics in the face. And then we also have Runes. So i got to thinking, what if there are these different sources for using And then there is Sorcery, where you can use and abuse all of the above. In essence this is where you are getting to being Doctor Strange. Now this is the kind of game I want! Edited July 13, 2020 by RogerDee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, RogerDee said: Didn't Runequest or one of the D100 engines also have point buy, fairly sure they did.... Nope. RQ used random die rolls. Superworld was the only variant that went point buy. Quote Anyhow, look at Revolution dropping Siz, pointless attribute and not relevant and replaced with Build now. I did look at Revolution and I disagree with you that SIZ is a pointless attribute. On the contrary I think SIZ is one of the most important attritrutes. Things like how much muscle mass (STR), resistance to toxins, and overall durability are all heavily influenced by SIZ. I think that if people want to run the Young Kingdoms with Revolution that's fine, but it's not really Stormbringer/BRP anymore, but Revolution. Quote App is a nothing attribute either really, and can be covered in traits. Painfully true in many BRP games, but not in RQ3, where it affected Category modfiers. Realistically it is far from a nothing attribute. Good looking people tend to get away with a bit more. Quote Cha - well this is irrelevant too, Not in RQ or early Strombringer. In SB it not only helped to determine you category modifier, but also affected you ability to bind and control supernatual entities. So it was very relevant to a sorceror. Quote as how well you come across is symptomatic of how you role play. And should it come to contest, a simple WP would cover that, or skill in oratory. I disagree. There is more too it that just roleplaying, for much the same reason why we don't "just roleplay" swordfights Whenever you have one character trying to do something that another character might not want to let happen you need a game mechanic for it. Otherwise, every character could charm millions and be an pop idol or politician. Quote The skills levels are as you mentioned, to demonstrate % levels in skills, just removes the in between values, and yes to streamline chargen. So a professional would have 75% in a particular skill. AT that point they deserve the 'professional' status at this point having taken considerable time to achieve. This also allows for those that want to go beyond 100% (I mean who doesn't want that lol). Oh, okay. If it isjust a chargen/drading tool, then I'm all for it. I though you meant it as a simplfied replacement to the % skill ratings. Quote Something I do like about Age system is when you pick a specialisation / profession - again something also done in BRP to some extent, and certainly in old RQ. So if someone were to pick a level in their profession, their skills would match. This does not account for those instances where say someone wants to play a fighter (pick an occupation really) that may be a bit rubbish at one of the skills. A good example of simplified chargen is Pulp Cthulhu - in fact this demonstrates it rather well. Pick Archetype, Occupation, and Talents. Extremely simplified. Basic and quick, how all chargen should be. And this might be 7e Cthulhu, but it is still BRP at its core. As long as it's just a way to simplfy chargen I'm fine with It. Just as long as we don't reduce skills down to a half dozen different ratings. Quote Personally, I see no reason not to give both options, small tweaks or major overhauls. Give players the choice to decide how to run their own game. I can see a few reasons. For starters the learning curve, and limited space in the book. Look at the BRPG Big Gold Book. It's a treasure trove of various rules and alternates for a host of different Chaosium produced RPGs over the years. It's great reference for someone who is familiar with BRP already, but a bit intimidating for someone who is new to the game. Rather than having to learn one system they end up having to pick and choose from various options. THe core rule book ends up being longer and filled with stuff that they won't be using. I think that the core rulebook should be short, and simple, with one way of doing things, and any alternate stuff should be put into a supplement. Quote Lets' look at magic - it is has not changed really in years and was never great to begin with. It hasn't changed much in years because the game has been out of print for over a decade. It didn't change much stylistically (it actually did change quite a bit, mechanically, between editions, although those changes were, IMO a mixed bag. Just porting over RQ battle magic wasn't such a great idea.) because it was designed to emulate the magic we see in the Elric stories. Quote This is why I have Cantrips (similar to Mythras / BRP Classic fantasy), then there are spells. My addition is to stick on Arcana (again stealing from Age here), which are areas of magic - whether fire, water, digital, etc. And what a player can do should be purely limited by their ability to shape that energy. Wanna throw a fireball, great, create a wall of fire, go for it. Except that just feels like a genrric FRP magic system and doesn't mesh all that well with what we see in the Elric stories. Quote Please bear in mind, these tweaks are more geared towards creating a more cinematic game, which is something Stormbringer should be. I'm not sure I agree with you on that. Can you spell out why. Quote An Eternal Champion reminds me of Lords of Gossamer in some ways. They are travelling the multiverse to explore and sample its riches, and set things back on track. their journeys may take them to a Sword and Sorcery world, or to Star Trek, or Star Wars. And it needs to cope with the transition. No. The Eternal Champion ( it is only one being, although the EC has many incarnations) is a person who is pulled through the multiverse by higher powers to determine the fate of various sphere of existence. That is very different from a Lord of Gossamer who is more of a higher power in his own right. Lords of Gossamer was mostly a way to bring back the Amber diceless RPG without actually using Amber, and the player characters are basically Amberites in abilties and function. In many ways they are closer to the Lords of Law and Chaos tan the Eternal Champion. Quote On a side note I read few RQ, Cthulhu rpgs, and a few other things and actually went and created my own combined multiverse with both in it. I enjoyed this exercise as it was great fun! That fine but that's not really somthing that really could be done, offically, with a Strombringer RPG, and probably shouldn't be done offically, anyway, as it isn't true the source material. Quote Not only that I feel the rules need to take into account different metaphysics too. I agree. The old rules were starting to bring that stuff in before Stormbringer lost support. Quote Hawkmoon has scientific magic in the rpg Call of Cthulhu is very much the same. No. Hawkmoon and Cthulhu Mythos is very differernt. Although, in both cases we can't say if any magic is actually involved or not. Quote Runequest is just straight up Harry Potter magic, and slaps physics in the face. No, not really. RQ magic is mostly theistic in nature. Quote And then we also have Runes. So i got to thinking, what if there are these different sources for using And then there is Sorcery, where you can use and abuse all of the above. In essence this is where you are getting to being Doctor Strange. Now this is the kind of game I want! That's great except that such a game would be difficult if not impossible for anyone to publish. AFor starters getting the rights to use the various properties would be difficult to secure,, and even if someone did manage it, they'd lose them and most of their potential fanbase over the way they mixed n' matched settings. Both the IP holders and fans would have a fit if the mix didn't match up with how they thought things should work. For example, could Elric wielding Stormbringer kill Cthulhu? Drop that question of the forums and dive behind some asbestos shielding. Instant flame war. Say "no" and all the EC fans will point out that Stormbringer was forged to slay gods and is actually one itself. Say "yes" and all the Cthulhu Mythos fans will bring out Cthulhu other worldly state and that he would just reform, plus other stuff from the Mythos. Truth is, there is no correct answer to the problem because each setting was created by different authors and each obeys it own distinct set of laws that are, mutually exclusive. THat sort of game is really something best left to each GM to work out according to their own wishes. Edited July 13, 2020 by Atgxtg 2 Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerDee Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Atgxtg said: I did look at Revolution and I disagree with you that SIZ is a pointless attribute. On the contrary I think SIZ is one of the most important attritrutes. Things like how much muscle mass (STR), resistance to toxins, and overall durability are all heavily influenced by SIZ. I think that if people want to run the Young Kingdoms with Revolution that's fine, but it's not really Stormbringer/BRP anymore, but Revolution. Just because another engine runs it, it does not cease to be Stormbringer. I can put a VW engine in a Porsche. It still has the chassis, tyres, windows, engine making it a Porsche! 1 hour ago, Atgxtg said: Painfully true in many BRP games, but not in RQ3, where it affected Category modfiers. Realistically it is far from a nothing attribute. Good looking people tend to get away with a bit more. Again, it does not need to be a stat, it can be a trait - nothing more than that. As to using this it affected category modifiers - you can easily add that if need be. 1 hour ago, Atgxtg said: Not in RQ or early Strombringer. In SB it not only helped to determine you category modifier, but also affected you ability to bind and control supernatual entities. So it was very relevant to a sorceror. Doesn't matter, use WP instead. Easy peasy. 1 hour ago, Atgxtg said: I disagree. There is more too it that just roleplaying, for much the same reason why we don't "just roleplay" swordfights Whenever you have one character trying to do something that another character might not want to let happen you need a game mechanic for it. Otherwise, every character could charm millions and be an pop idol or politician. Using the analogy of role playing sword fights is a little silly mate. Charisma can just be a trait again, and use WP. to create a modifier. 1 hour ago, Atgxtg said: Oh, okay. If it isjust a chargen/drading tool, then I'm all for it. I though you meant it as a simplfied replacement to the % skill ratings.As long as it's just a way to simplfy chargen I'm fine with It. Just as long as we don't reduce skills down to a half dozen different ratings. That is exactly what I would do. I would use just them as a grading tool and as a percentage to roll against. 1 hour ago, Atgxtg said: t hasn't changed much in years because the game has been out of print for over a decade. It didn't change much stylistically (it actually did change quite a bit, mechanically, between editions, although those changes were, IMO a mixed bag. Just porting over RQ battle magic wasn't such a great idea.) because it was designed to emulate the magic we see in the Elric stories. No, magic as a whole has not changed, and needs to fast. It is as old and rickety and my ankles first thing in the morning. Minor tweaks to Animism / Spirit Magic, and Mysticism had a few in Mythras. They have even reprinted the Glyph magic from SB East book into the Advanced Sorcery book, calling it Deep Magic instead. No, it needs a major overhaul like i said. You just need Cantrip, Spells, Arcana, hell you could even add Spheres - although this Scientific Magic Actual Magic Sorcery Just like it was written in the RPG's. Keep magic advancing and moving. Look at some of the Pathfinder magic of late - there has been some utterly fantastic additions to it. 1 hour ago, Atgxtg said: I'm not sure I agree with you on that. Can you spell out why. Travelling the multiverse is supposed to be fantastic, not mundane! Whether you are an Eternal Champion, or a humble traveller. You seek out the fantastic, the strange, wacky and bizarre and adventure with them. Cannot get anymore cinematic than that. At this stage you want your characters to be blocking bullets, or even lasers with their, able to take down a small group but still have to careful. 1 hour ago, Atgxtg said: That fine but that's not really somthing that really could be done, offically, with a Strombringer RPG, and probably shouldn't be done offically, anyway, as it isn't true the source material. Of course it can. Moorcock even called the Lords of Chaos and Order....Old Ones. It is on his miscellany website. So it could totally be done, and very easily too. 1 hour ago, Atgxtg said: No. Hawkmoon and Cthulhu Mythos is very differernt. Although, in both cases we can't say if any magic is actually involved or not. According to the Hawkmoon rpg, it states that it was scientific. Lovecraft magic seems to be about alien science. Sorcery and Runes, from some descriptions I have read certainly seem very scientific in nature, reaching into other dimensions etc. 1 hour ago, Atgxtg said: No, not really. RQ magic is mostly theistic in nature. Massively missing the point. RQ magic (not all was Theism) basically told physics to go do one, and stop moaning about conservation of energy and it could damn create ex nihilio if it felt it! 1 hour ago, Atgxtg said: That's great except that such a game would be difficult if not impossible for anyone to publish. AFor starters getting the rights to use the various properties would be difficult to secure,, and even if someone did manage it, they'd lose them and most of their potential fanbase over the way they mixed n' matched settings. Both the IP holders and fans would have a fit if the mix didn't match up with how they thought things should work. For example, could Elric wielding Stormbringer kill Cthulhu? Drop that question of the forums and dive behind some asbestos shielding. Instant flame war. Say "no" and all the EC fans will point out that Stormbringer was forged to slay gods and is actually one itself. Say "yes" and all the Cthulhu Mythos fans will bring out Cthulhu other worldly state and that he would just reform, plus other stuff from the Mythos. Truth is, there is no correct answer to the problem because each setting was created by different authors and each obeys it own distinct set of laws that are, mutually exclusive. THat sort of game is really something best left to each GM to work out according to their own wishes. They are the same thing mate https://wiki.multiverse.org/index.php?title=Great_Old_Ones So yeah you can easily. As to killing Cthulhu with Strombringer - it is a multiverse setting, who is to say all versions of Cthulhu are the same. Some could be aliens, others could from another dimension while one could from a higher dimension and utterly untouchable by Stormbringer. Stop being so rigid thinking man. Hell in my combined CoC / Stormbringer setting I essentially had the Q-like beings as Lords of Order and Chaos; Outer Gods lived in the void between universe, utterly huge beings that dwarfed universes. A bit of imagination can go a long way. Edited July 13, 2020 by RogerDee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted July 13, 2020 Share Posted July 13, 2020 41 minutes ago, RogerDee said: Just because another engine runs it, it does not cease to be Stormbringer. Yes it does, becuase Stormbringer is the name of the engine (game system) and not the setting (Yong Kingdoms/Multiverse) 41 minutes ago, RogerDee said: I can put a VW engine in a Porsche. It still has the chassis, tyres, windows, engine making it a Porsche! Bad example, VW is Porsche. Both Volkswagon and Prsche were started by the same man and are both Porche Companies. But if you were to somehow put an old 40hp Beetle engine into a 911 it wouldn't perform like a 911 anymore. Now if you want to run the setting in another RPG (engine) that's fine, but if that engine differnt from BRP then it isn't a BRP game anymore. For instance there was a Dragonlords of Melnibone book for D&D. It wasn't Stormbringer, it was D&D. 41 minutes ago, RogerDee said: Again, it does not need to be a stat, it can be a trait - nothing more than that. As to using this it affected category modifiers - you can easily add that if need be. Why isn't Strength a trait then? Or Dexterity or much anything else? What standards determine if something is a trait or not? Before you say "becuase it isn't useful" or whever, a case can be made either way about how important any attribute is. I can't recall any instance what great strength was every that crtical to the Eternal Champion or any of his allies. 41 minutes ago, RogerDee said: Doesn't matter, use WP instead. Easy peasy. But not necessarily better. In fact it just makes things much easier for sorcerers as they now only need a good score in ONE stat. 41 minutes ago, RogerDee said: Using the analogy of role playing sword fights is a little silly mate. Charisma can just be a trait again, and use WP. to create a modifier. No it isn't. Let me give you an example. Let's say that a PC needs to get past a guard. Now if he fights the guard in combat we go into combat rounds and have all sorts of detailed rules to see if he gets past the guard or not. The actual swordsmanship of the player, or lack thereof, is not a factor. But, if the player tries to charm his way past the guard, well, then the player has to roleplay it, and the ability of the player to charm people matters. That is not only unfairly biased towards the swordman, who only has to decide to fight and roll dice, but also means that only glib tongued players can ever play glib heroes. James Bond does much better with the ladies than most of the men I've knwn, myself included, and much of that is attributed to his innate charm. And if you make that a trait, then why can't master swordsman be a trait too? 41 minutes ago, RogerDee said: That is exactly what I would do. I would use just them as a grading tool and as a percentage to roll against. Sorry could you clarify. DO you mean you would just use it for chargen, or that you would use it for everythung. If the latter, then you are really designing a entirely different RPG, not Stormbringer. 41 minutes ago, RogerDee said: No, magic as a whole has not changed, and needs to fast. It is as old and rickety and my ankles first thing in the morning. Minor tweaks to Animism / Spirit Magic, and Mysticism had a few in Mythras. They have even reprinted the Glyph magic from SB East book into the Advanced Sorcery book, calling it Deep Magic instead. No, it needs a major overhaul like i said. None of that is in the source material though. For the game to play like a Moocock setting it has to reamin true to the soruce material. If you just port oer everything thing you like from various other games you will just end up with a generic FRPG. 41 minutes ago, RogerDee said: You just need Cantrip, Spells, Arcana, hell you could even add Spheres - although this I don't need any of that and neither does the setting. You might want that, but that isn't the same as what the setting needs. The orginal Stormbringer RPG limited the magic to summorings with supernatural creatures becuase that was the sort of magic that was in the Elric stories up to that time. 41 minutes ago, RogerDee said: Scientific Magic Actual Magic Sorcery Just like it was written in the RPG's. Keep magic advancing and moving. Look at some of the Pathfinder magic of late - there has been some utterly fantastic additions to it. *SIGH* THis isn't Pathfinder. I don't think you understand what it means to write a game for a specific setting. The rules, whatever they may be, have to fit the requirments of the setting, not just be things that an game designer thinks is cool. If you port over Pathfinder magic you will end up with a game that plays more like Pathfinder and less like a Elric story. JUst imagine what D&D style healing and raise dead spells would do to any Eternal Champion story. "Oh, Cymoril, I have slain thee! Somebody get the cleric!" 41 minutes ago, RogerDee said: Travelling the multiverse is supposed to be fantastic, not mundane! Whether you are an Eternal Champion, or a humble traveller. You seek out the fantastic, the strange, wacky and bizarre and adventure with them. Cannot get anymore cinematic than that. At this stage you want your characters to be blocking bullets, or even lasers with their, able to take down a small group but still have to careful. Have you read any Eternal Champion books? It rare when the EC gets to travel through the multiverse as he desires and deals with whenever he wants. Usually the champion is stuck on one or a handful of interlinked planes, and only leaves them on particular quests , which he usually has little choice or control over. 41 minutes ago, RogerDee said: Of course it can. Moorcock even called the Lords of Chaos and Order....Old Ones. It is on his miscellany website. So it could totally be done, and very easily too. Yes it could be, but that doesn't mean it should be, at least not in any product. It's fine for a particul GM's campaign, but its's not something anyone could publish. 41 minutes ago, RogerDee said: According to the Hawkmoon rpg, it states that it was scientific. Yes, but it doesn't really seem to be magical. Remeber that the stories present things in ways that are designed to tell a story a particular way, and the RPG follows suit. Because of way the setting (the Reagic Millenium) is presented, we can't really tell if it is magical at all, or just the remnants of some futuristic science. 41 minutes ago, RogerDee said: Lovecraft magic seems to be about alien science. Yes it might seem so, but is it? All the Mythos being could just be aien life forms and all thier abilties could be explained scientifically in some way. Or maybe they are beyond science as we know it and don't obey our physical laws. 41 minutes ago, RogerDee said: Sorcery and Runes, from some descriptions I have read certainly seem very scientific in nature, reaching into other dimensions etc. Yes, but it comes down to how you want to interpret it. Once you start mixing established settings you are going to have to convince other people that your interpretation is the correct one. This isn't so much of an issue with a GM running a handful of players. But is is an issue when an author tires to merge Stormbringer and Elric. There are good reasons why Chasoium never mixed the two settings. Its' very difficult to remain faithful to both settings long term. 41 minutes ago, RogerDee said: Massively missing the point. RQ magic (not all was Theism) basically told physics to go do one, and stop moaning about conservation of energy and it could damn create ex nihilio if it felt it! No. In Glorantha as we know it, doesn't actually exist. All RQ magic was theristic in some form. THe closest you get to physics and scientific method on Glorantha were the God Learners. You can;'t get much more theistic than that. 41 minutes ago, RogerDee said: They are the same thing mate Not without confirmation from the sources involved. Otherwise it's just fan fiction. 41 minutes ago, RogerDee said: https://wiki.multiverse.org/index.php?title=Great_Old_Ones\ Sorry, just because some one posted it on a on a wiki site doesn't make it so. Mookcock claims that the Doctor from the Doctor Who TV series is an aspect of the Eternal Champion. But just because Moorcock wrote a story that said so, doesn't mean it's true according to the show. 41 minutes ago, RogerDee said: So yeah you can easily. As to killing Cthulhu with Strombringer - it is a multiverse setting, who is to say all versions of Cthulhu are the same. Some could be aliens, others could from another dimension while one could from a higher dimension and utterly untouchable by Stormbringer. But Cthulhu isn't a multiversal setting. If you make it one you sort of undermine it. Each setting has certain requirements to work properly. When you mix settings it is very easy for one setting to eclipse and lessen another. 41 minutes ago, RogerDee said: Stop being so rigid thinking man. I can say the same to you. Your forcing us to mesh things into a Eternal Champion RPG that don't have anything to do with the Eternal Champion. If you want to play Rifts go right ahead, but don't try force us all to. 41 minutes ago, RogerDee said: Hell in my combined CoC / Stormbringer setting I essentially had the Q-like beings as Lords of Order and Chaos; Outer Gods lived in the void between universe, utterly huge beings that dwarfed universes. Yes but that is your combined setting not the actual setting. If you want to mix, Snoopy and Godzilla in your campaign, that's fine, it's your campaign. If you want to make then both aspects of the Eternal Champion and face them off against Cthulhu that's okay - for your campaign. It's a whole different story if you want to get people outside of your gaming group to accept it. 41 minutes ago, RogerDee said: A bit of imagination can go a long way. Yes, but it might go too far, or in the wrong direction. Whenever an author uses a preexisting setting, expseically one they did not create, they have to consider what thier ideas might actually do to said setting, and how well thier idea will go down. It's one thing to mix Eternal Champion settings, as there is precent for that, and nothing wrong with Elric bumping into Hawkmoon or Corum, if done right. It happens in the EC stories. But once you mix in a non EC setting you have to stop and consider the needs of that setting, and what the ramifncations of mixing the settings will be. It's easy to mix and match stuff. It's hard to do it well. For instance, Elric Killing Cthlhu has massive ramifications for the whole Mythos setting. It pretty much instantly destroys the underlying feeling that humanity is helpless and hopeless against the greater Mythos beings, doomed to be destroyed when Rhyleh rises. If the Eternal Champion exists and can take out Cthulhu, then we've pretty much got that Mythos thing covered. That completely changes tone and feel of a CoC campaign. You can very easily destroy all the settings and characters you love that way as one setting or character diminishes another. And ultimately the trick on mixing in new settings wears off, and the GM has to be able to write a good adventure and tell a good story with whatever is left. Mixing tow settings doesn't automatically make for a better setting. Most crossovers don't work out very well. It takes a very skilled author to pull them off, and most of those tend to be one shots that end before peoiple stop and really think about what the crossover means. Now you may have mixed this and that in the past, as has many a GM, and maybe you have had great results, but that doesn't mean everyone else will agree with your interpretation or get the same results. Mixing is fine as something for a GM to do in a campaign, but not fine as a core concept for a potential Stormbringer 5.5. 2 Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SDLeary Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 (edited) 9 hours ago, Atgxtg said: Nope. RQ used random die rolls. Superworld was the only variant that went point buy. Not quite... Quote RQ3 (softback, p.14: Determining Characteristics)... Deliberate Method: this method does not use dice. Only use it to create human adventurers. You allot a total of 80 points among your characters seven characteristics. ... and... Quote (p.27: Quick Experience System)... Skills: The player tallies 30% for every year that the adventurer is older than age 15. He or she then divides up the sum of the percentiles among the various skills. ... While its true that this is not a point buy system in the vein of Champions or Superworld, where a "point" gives you a value of 1 or more for characteristics, or more than a single percentile in a skill, or X amount of a power, it is still a point buy system in its own right. This was our default method of creating characters in Sandy's 80s campaign, only resorting to the cultures and professions when we needed to do things quickly. @RogerDee Have you looked at Mythras, and its supplements Classic Fantasy and Luther Arkwright? A combination thereof seems like it could fit (at least in broad strokes) what you're after. SDLeary Edited July 14, 2020 by SDLeary 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Vile Traveller Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 (edited) I think we're drifting rather a long way from "Stormbringer 5.5" here! 😅 As per the OP: On 3/17/2017 at 8:33 AM, Marcus Bone said: This would likely be more around the skill names and descriptions, magical abilities and other things like that, rather than the core mechanics (i.e. what dice you roll, the names of the stats, etc.). Edited July 14, 2020 by Vile Traveller Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerDee Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, Atgxtg said: Yes it does, becuase Stormbringer is the name of the engine (game system) and not the setting (Yong Kingdoms/Multiverse) Well not really, it uses D100 BRP system AFAIK. 8 hours ago, Atgxtg said: Why isn't Strength a trait then? Or Dexterity or much anything else? What standards determine if something is a trait or not? Before you say "becuase it isn't useful" or whever, a case can be made either way about how important any attribute is. I can't recall any instance what great strength was every that crtical to the Eternal Champion or any of his allies. Not sure if you being genuine here or not? Stats are direct measures of things, strength, dexterity, endurance, things that cannot be role played. Charisma can be. Not technically before you jump in here and go well appearance cannot be role played either. Who actually really cares about it? 8 hours ago, Atgxtg said: But not necessarily better. In fact it just makes things much easier for sorcerers as they now only need a good score in ONE stat. Sorcerers tend to use two stats though don't they? WP and Int. 8 hours ago, Atgxtg said: No it isn't. Let me give you an example. Let's say that a PC needs to get past a guard. Now if he fights the guard in combat we go into combat rounds and have all sorts of detailed rules to see if he gets past the guard or not. The actual swordsmanship of the player, or lack thereof, is not a factor. But, if the player tries to charm his way past the guard, well, then the player has to roleplay it, and the ability of the player to charm people matters. That is not only unfairly biased towards the swordman, who only has to decide to fight and roll dice, but also means that only glib tongued players can ever play glib heroes. James Bond does much better with the ladies than most of the men I've knwn, myself included, and much of that is attributed to his innate charm. Sweet Jesus! It is called role playing for a reason! If you want to practice sword fighting or boxing go down your local gym or dojo. 8 hours ago, Atgxtg said: And if you make that a trait, then why can't master swordsman be a trait too? It absolutely can. But as a whole I tend to dislike the needless complexity of WoD. 8 hours ago, Atgxtg said: Sorry could you clarify. DO you mean you would just use it for chargen, or that you would use it for everythung. If the latter, then you are really designing a entirely different RPG, not Stormbringer. It is still D100 based, just bereft of superfluous stuff. 8 hours ago, Atgxtg said: None of that is in the source material though. For the game to play like a Moocock setting it has to reamin true to the soruce material. If you just port oer everything thing you like from various other games you will just end up with a generic FRPG. I don't need any of that and neither does the setting. You might want that, but that isn't the same as what the setting needs. The orginal Stormbringer RPG limited the magic to summorings with supernatural creatures becuase that was the sort of magic that was in the Elric stories up to that time. 8 hours ago, Atgxtg said: Yes, but it comes down to how you want to interpret it. Once you start mixing established settings you are going to have to convince other people that your interpretation is the correct one. This isn't so much of an issue with a GM running a handful of players. But is is an issue when an author tires to merge Stormbringer and Elric. There are good reasons why Chasoium never mixed the two settings. Its' very difficult to remain faithful to both settings long term. Stop being so closed minded! OMG man, it is a multiverse setting it can be anything and everything. 8 hours ago, Atgxtg said: *SIGH* THis isn't Pathfinder. I don't think you understand what it means to write a game for a specific setting. The rules, whatever they may be, have to fit the requirments of the setting, not just be things that an game designer thinks is cool. If you port over Pathfinder magic you will end up with a game that plays more like Pathfinder and less like a Elric story. JUst imagine what D&D style healing and raise dead spells would do to any Eternal Champion story. "Oh, Cymoril, I have slain thee! Somebody get the cleric!" You do realise this is already in the published rpg's right? And again, it is a multiverse setting where magic can interact with each universe in different ways etc. Where do you think Lords of Gossamer ideas came from man? It is clearly a combination of Elric and the Dark Tower, and DnD. 8 hours ago, Atgxtg said: Have you read any Eternal Champion books? It rare when the EC gets to travel through the multiverse as he desires and deals with whenever he wants. Usually the champion is stuck on one or a handful of interlinked planes, and only leaves them on particular quests , which he usually has little choice or control over. And the scaling engineers travel them as they want. It seems you are just being antagonistic here for the sake of it. 8 hours ago, Atgxtg said: Yes it could be, but that doesn't mean it should be, at least not in any product. It's fine for a particul GM's campaign, but its's not something anyone could publish. On the grounds that the Lords of Order and Chaos, were essentially similar to DC cosmology - angels or demons from God. Of which there were also powers out there beyond them, it absolutely could easily be published. So easy. 8 hours ago, Atgxtg said: No. In Glorantha as we know it, doesn't actually exist. All RQ magic was theristic in some form. THe closest you get to physics and scientific method on Glorantha were the God Learners. You can;'t get much more theistic than that Let me be crystal here then - Legend then, not all the magic is theistic based. Stop being so goddamn pedantic! 8 hours ago, Atgxtg said: Sorry, just because some one posted it on a on a wiki site doesn't make it so. Mookcock claims that the Doctor from the Doctor Who TV series is an aspect of the Eternal Champion. But just because Moorcock wrote a story that said so, doesn't mean it's true according to the show. Firstly, and I am going be outspoken here - the book was shite! Secondly, Doctor Who EU is so open that it really doesn't matter a damn. 8 hours ago, Atgxtg said: But Cthulhu isn't a multiversal setting. If you make it one you sort of undermine it. Each setting has certain requirements to work properly. When you mix settings it is very easy for one setting to eclipse and lessen another. The Cthulhu setting is absolutely multiversal and likely takes place in a Type IV multiverse. Yoggy is actually one of the most powerful beings in ALL of fiction.. 8 hours ago, Atgxtg said: I can say the same to you. I am being completely open to any and all changes and you're the one saying '"no!" You really should try looking in the mirror here, sweet Jesus! 8 hours ago, Atgxtg said: If you want to play Rifts go right ahead, but don't try force us all to. Strawman 8 hours ago, Atgxtg said: Yes, but it might go too far, or in the wrong direction. Whenever an author uses a preexisting setting, expseically one they did not create, they have to consider what thier ideas might actually do to said setting, and how well thier idea will go down. It's one thing to mix Eternal Champion settings, as there is precent for that, and nothing wrong with Elric bumping into Hawkmoon or Corum, if done right. It happens in the EC stories. But once you mix in a non EC setting you have to stop and consider the needs of that setting, and what the ramifncations of mixing the settings will be. It's easy to mix and match stuff. It's hard to do it well. For instance, Elric Killing Cthlhu has massive ramifications for the whole Mythos setting. It pretty much instantly destroys the underlying feeling that humanity is helpless and hopeless against the greater Mythos beings, doomed to be destroyed when Rhyleh rises. If the Eternal Champion exists and can take out Cthulhu, then we've pretty much got that Mythos thing covered. That completely changes tone and feel of a CoC campaign. You can very easily destroy all the settings and characters you love that way as one setting or character diminishes another. And ultimately the trick on mixing in new settings wears off, and the GM has to be able to write a good adventure and tell a good story with whatever is left. Mixing tow settings doesn't automatically make for a better setting. Most crossovers don't work out very well. It takes a very skilled author to pull them off, and most of those tend to be one shots that end before peoiple stop and really think about what the crossover means. Now you may have mixed this and that in the past, as has many a GM, and maybe you have had great results, but that doesn't mean everyone else will agree with your interpretation or get the same results. Mixing is fine as something for a GM to do in a campaign, but not fine as a core concept for a potential Stormbringer 5.5. OMG where do you think Pyrary came from? Damn Cthulhu expy! And again mate - multiverse. It is all about exploring how the actions you take can thoroughly change, for good or ill, where you are. Go Big or go home! EDIT: Or could you actually be having issues with getting to grips with a multiverse type setting? And understanding the implications of it? now if it is, please say so, and we can talk about it. Edited July 14, 2020 by RogerDee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, SDLeary said: Not quite... and... While its true that this is not a point buy system in the vein of Champions or Superworld, where a "point" gives you a value of 1 or more for characteristics, or more than a single percentile in a skill, or X amount of a power, it is still a point buy system in its own right. Yeah, but as you pointed out neither of those are a strictly point buy system, and I'll add they only determined characteristics that way, not anything else. Quote This was our default method of creating characters in Sandy's 80s campaign, only resorting to the cultures and professions when we needed to do things quickly. It's a matter of choice and goals. My point though was that RogerDee's wishlist is for a game that isn't BRP. There is nothing wrong with that- I think most of us have played non-BRP games at times, but there is really no way that the next edition of the "Stormbringer" RPG could be Stomrbringer and not be BRP based. In might be an Eternal Champion/Elric based game, but not Stormbringer. Otherwise the Mournblade RPG would qualify. Edited July 14, 2020 by Atgxtg Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 6 hours ago, RogerDee said: Well not really, it uses D100 BRP system AFAIK. Technically it uses a variation of the RuneQuest rules. BRP as a game system was something of a retcon. RQ came out, then RQ2, and BRP was a trimmed down version of RQ2. But Strombringer 1st edtion was closer to RQ3. It was the first RQ derative that use the full percentage range instead ofincrements of 5%, and category modfiers in 1% increments instead of five. But the point is, what makes the game Stormbringer is the game system. If you run the same setting with a differernt system, it's not the same game. 6 hours ago, RogerDee said: Not sure if you being genuine here or not? Stats are direct measures of things, strength, dexterity, endurance, things that cannot be role played. First off they are not really direct measures, other than STR and SIZ, they are abstract measures. Secondly, why can't they be role-played? 6 hours ago, RogerDee said: Charisma can be. No it can't. You either have it or you don't. In real life two people can say and do the same thing and get different results. It is one of the reasons why one person can get away with something and another cannot. 6 hours ago, RogerDee said: Not technically before you jump in here and go well appearance cannot be role played either. Who actually really cares about it? I do, as do quite a few others. There have even been threads in the BRP and Pendragon forums over it. The reality is appearance makes a big difference in how people act and treat each other. It probably shouldn't-matter as much as it does, but it does. The chances of taling your way out of a speeding ticket improve markedly if you happen to be drop dead gorgeous. And situations where appearance matters come up far more often than those where how much some can lift does. 6 hours ago, RogerDee said: Sorcerers tend to use two stats though don't they? WP and Int. No. In SB they need INT to learn the spell, POW to cast them and control summoned beings, and CHA serves as both a limit on bound elementals and demons and to impress/convince powerful entities to do them a favor. Other stats are useful to them as well, as in most editions of the game they contributed to the point total of summoned demons. For someone who ran a big campaign based on the game you don't seem to be very familiar with it. 6 hours ago, RogerDee said: Sweet Jesus! It is called role playing for a reason! If you want to practice sword fighting or boxing go down your local gym or dojo. Yes role playing. And that means we want the ability to play characters who can do things we cannot. Let me give you an example: Let's say a character needs to get into the palace to speak to the prince about something, but there is a guard out front who won't let the character in. Now the player might not be able to talk thier way past the guard, but the character should be able to. If you "just roleplay it" then it all comes down to the GM arbiraliy decing if the character is convincing or not. But if the same player tries to overcome the guard psychically, then all the characters stats get to make a difference. IF someone wants to role play a suave, charming character, they should be able to do so, the same way they could role play a big strong barbarian. 6 hours ago, RogerDee said: It absolutely can. But as a whole I tend to dislike the needless complexity of WoD. And I tend to dislike changing the core game mechanics arbitrarily. If you ant to houserule stuff,great, but if you want to convince others that your homegrown ideas are imprments then you have to be convincing. 6 hours ago, RogerDee said: It is still D100 based, IS it. It uses percentile dice, but you changed most of it to work very differently that BRP. By that reasoning Rolemaster and DragonQuest are D100 based. 6 hours ago, RogerDee said: just bereft of superfluous stuff. Stuff that you consider to be superfluous. But not everyone subspecies to your view as to what is superfluous. 6 hours ago, RogerDee said: Stop being so closed minded! OMG man, it is a multiverse setting it can be anything and everything. As long as anything and everything works within Moorcook's multiverse. Otherwise it just becomes your Fan Fiction. Again, what we do with our own campaigns is one thing, but how we intrepet some pre-exisitng setting that some other author created is something else. If you want to make Zelazny's Amberites the Lord of Law in your campaign that's fine. If you do so in a rulebook, that's not fine- and on many levels. Neither of the creators would appreciate it, nor would many of the fans of thier works. 6 hours ago, RogerDee said: You do realise this is already in the published rpg's right? And again, it is a multiverse setting where magic can interact with each universe in different ways etc. Where do you think Lords of Gossamer ideas came from man? It is clearly a combination of Elric and the Dark Tower, and DnD. Lord of Gossamer is a published RPG, but I don't think you understand what it is. It isn't a mix of Elric, Dark Tower and D&D, but instead a way to bring back the diceless game system that Erick Wujcik had created for the Amber RPG, without having the rights to the Amber setting. Just ask Jason Durall, he wrote it and is now working for Chasoium. Since it is basically a "generic" Amber it is also a multiverse because Amber is. Let me put it yet another way. In the 80s and 90s, Chasoium had permission to publish Cthulhu and Elric based RPGs, and they did so. Both game systems used the same core system, and stats were virtually interchangeable. Yet Chaosium never did a crossover adventure between the two. Despite the fact that they would have loved to make Stormbringer as popular as CoC, and a crossover would have been a easy way to draw the CoC players into the Stormbinger game. Yet they never did so. Why not? Simple, because it would have alienated two fan bases at at least one of the creators. 6 hours ago, RogerDee said: And the scaling engineers travel them as they want. It seems you are just being antagonistic here for the sake of it. No, I'm pointing out that the Eternal Champion series is not like the Amber series or Lords of Gossamer. In the EC series the story is about some incarnation of the Eternal Champion fighting against evil, usually in the frm of Chaos, to restore Balance. While the EC may at times go to other spheres in the multiverse, that isn't a major element to most sorties. Elric, for example, travels to several differnt worlds, but his saga is about the fate of the Yong Kingdoms. Amber, and Lords of Gossamer, tell stories that are focused around travelling to and from different worlds. It's a major element to the stories. You can tell an EC saga with just one world and no mention of other spheres, Moorcock has done so several times. You can't tell an Amber or Gossamer story that way. 6 hours ago, RogerDee said: On the grounds that the Lords of Order and Chaos, were essentially similar to DC cosmology - angels or demons from God. Of which there were also powers out there beyond them, it absolutely could easily be published. So easy. LOL! For starters it wouldn't be all that easy, as you would be violating copyright. Assuming for the moment that copyright wasn't an issue, you could do it but it wouldn't be easy. The thing is there is more to this that just taking somebodies idea and using it. A lot depends on how you use it. All the great settings are great in large part because of the way the creators made them, but also in they way they portrayed them and the approach they used to present the stories. If someone else had written Amber, Elric, Lord of the Rings, Conan, or whatever, even if they had all the same names and places, the results wouldn't necessarily be any good. To paraphrase from Jurassic PArk, rather than asking if you can do it, you should stop to consider if you should do it. 6 hours ago, RogerDee said: Let me be crystal here then - Legend then, not all the magic is theistic based. Stop being so goddamn pedantic! I am being crystal here. I just don't think you follow me. Glorantha is a word where everything is divine and spiritual in some way. It's not based on science in any way. And speaking of Glorantha, it is a good example of why we shouldn't just throw everything into the big mutliverse pot. In Glroantha, Chaos in imitable to life, not the source of creation, as it is in Moorcock's multiverse. Mixing the two would fundamentally alter Glorantha and pretty much tick off all the Glorantha fans. 6 hours ago, RogerDee said: Firstly, and I am going be outspoken here - the book was shite! Secondly, Doctor Who EU is so open that it really doesn't matter a damn. Those are both just your opinion. If you think RQ was shite then your on the wrong forum. 6 hours ago, RogerDee said: The Cthulhu setting is absolutely multiversal and likely takes place in a Type IV multiverse. Can you prove that in any way? 6 hours ago, RogerDee said: Yoggy is actually one of the most powerful beings in ALL of fiction.. Again that's just your opinion. There really isn't any sort of absolute scale when doing a crossover because each setting doesn't work the same. It all comes down to how someone wishes to interpret things 6 hours ago, RogerDee said: I am being completely open to any and all changes and you're the one saying '"no!" You really should try looking in the mirror here, sweet Jesus! But you are not open to the idea that not all change is necessarily for the better. Just becuase you think mixing A and B is a great ide doesn't mean that other will. Change for the sake of change isn't a good thing. 6 hours ago, RogerDee said: Strawman No. My point is that there is a huge difference between a GM coming up with a idea that the like for thier own campaign, and an author trying to write a game for an established IP. If you add stuff to Moorcock's multiverse that isn't his then it is no longer Moorcock's multiverse, but instead something else. Likewise if you claim a game is Stormibnger but it greatly different mechanically from any other iteration of BRP, it isn't BRP anymore. Look you can put Godzilla, Snoopy, the Hulk and Luke Skywalker alonside Elric in an story, and maybe it would be a good or great adventure, but you would have to be a fantasic author and the story would need to have something else going for it other than the corssover. 6 hours ago, RogerDee said: OMG where do you think Pyrary came from? Damn Cthulhu expy! *SIGH*. That might be your head cannon, but that doesn't make it so. 6 hours ago, RogerDee said: And again mate - multiverse. It is all about exploring how the actions you take can thoroughly change, for good or ill, where you are. Go Big or go home! Says who? Neither Moorcock nor Lovecraft wrote stories based on that theme. Things were much more personal and local. For the EC stories, the multiverse is just there, and the EC is yanked about like a puppet to set things to right. He not some interdenominational traveler out for a ride. Most of the time, he doesn't even know there is a multiverse. I think you are confusing what the sorcue material is with what you want it to be. 6 hours ago, RogerDee said: EDIT: Or could you actually be having issues with getting to grips with a multiverse type setting? And understanding the implications of it? now if it is, please say so, and we can talk about it. I have no problems getting to grips with a multiverse type setting. I am having problems with your interpretations of pre-existing settings. THay are fine for your personal campaign, but not fine as representations of Moorcock's Multiverse. If you want to make your own multiverse, feel free. 2 Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 Okay, let me try to explain this another way. One of the game that I run is Pendragon. It is a game set in Britian during the time of King Arthur. It follows Arthurian literature, and has certain themes and sotrylines. There is a certain tone and fell that fits the game. Now could a GM incorporate that into a multiverse campaign? Sure, it would be easy. But it wouldn't be Pendragon anymore. The changes in tone and style that go with a multiverse campaign. If the GM makes Arthur and Lancelot an incarnation of the Eternal Champion and his companion (or vice versa) it would certainly work as a Eternal Champion story, but it wouldn't work any more as the King Arthur of Literature, and the game wouldn't be Pendragon anymore. It would still be Arthurian, but it would be in the style of Moorcock EC series, not in the medieval tradition. Now you might not care about that, but the majority of Pendragon players probably would, and if you were to publish that game as Pendragon, you'd lose most of the fans and kill off the game, because you weren't being true to your sources. P.S> AN EC version of the King Arthur story would be neat, too. I'd be all for it. I just wouldn't want it to be connected to Pendragon. Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerDee Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, Atgxtg said: But the point is, what makes the game Stormbringer is the game system. If you run the same setting with a differernt system, it's not the same game. Rubbish - you are confusing game system with feel of the game. They are not the same thing, stop doing this! 2 hours ago, Atgxtg said: irst off they are not really direct measures, other than STR and SIZ, they are abstract measures. Secondly, why can't they be role-played? Unless you are going to be able to bench press 800 pounds, and be 6'8" then this is just dumb. 2 hours ago, Atgxtg said: No it can't. You either have it or you don't. In real life two people can say and do the same thing and get different results. It is one of the reasons why one person can get away with something and another cannot. I do, as do quite a few others. There have even been threads in the BRP and Pendragon forums over it. The reality is appearance makes a big difference in how people act and treat each other. It probably shouldn't-matter as much as it does, but it does. The chances of taling your way out of a speeding ticket improve markedly if you happen to be drop dead gorgeous. And situations where appearance matters come up far more often than those where how much some can lift does Make it a trait modifier to whatever stat you want. You don't need a stat for it. 2 hours ago, Atgxtg said: As long as anything and everything works within Moorcook's multiverse. Otherwise it just becomes your Fan Fiction If you are doing a multiverse game, unless it takes in account different types of settings it is worthless garbage! 2 hours ago, Atgxtg said: LOL! For starters it wouldn't be all that easy, as you would be violating copyright. Assuming for the moment that copyright wasn't an issue, you could do it but it wouldn't be easy. DC has done it. The fictional book Transmigration of Souls did it. Doctor Who has done it. 2 hours ago, Atgxtg said: I am being crystal here. I just don't think you follow me. Glorantha is a word where everything is divine and spiritual in some way. It's not based on science in any way. And speaking of Glorantha, it is a good example of why we shouldn't just throw everything into the big mutliverse pot. On the grounds my previous post said Legend - Glorantha is not relevant. Champions did it with Mystic World using the same system that Ken Hite used in Gurps Cabal - they just went into more detail. So yeah, you can totally do it. 2 hours ago, Atgxtg said: Those are both just your opinion. If you think RQ was shite then your on the wrong forum. It was in reference to the Terraphiles FFS. 2 hours ago, Atgxtg said: Can you prove that in any way? Quote 1: It was an All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self—not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence’s whole unbounded sweep—the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike. Quote 2: "The waves surged forth again, and Carter knew that the BEING had heard. And now there poured from that limitless MIND a flood of knowledge and explanation which opened new vistas to the seeker, and prepared him for such a grasp of the cosmos as he had never hoped to possess. He was told how childish and limited is the notion of a tri-dimensional world, and what an infinity of directions there are besides the known directions of up-down, forward-backward, right-left. He was shewn the smallness and tinsel emptiness of the little gods of earth, with their petty, human interests and connexions—their hatreds, rages, loves, and vanities; their craving for praise and sacrifice, and their demands for faith contrary to reason and Nature. Quote 3: Then the waves increased in strength, and sought to improve his understanding, reconciling him to the multiform entity of which his present fragment was an infinitesimal part. They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension—as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity. The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where ’Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones. Though men hail it as reality and brand thoughts of its many-dimensioned original as unreality, it is in truth the very opposite. That which we call substance and reality is shadow and illusion, and that which we call shadow and illusion is substance and reality. https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/cthulhu-mythos-respect-thread.680410/ https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/cthulhu-mythos-respect.335992/ 2 hours ago, Atgxtg said: Again that's just your opinion. This is pretty much fact by anyone with a brain. So yeah, pretty much one of the most powerful beings in all of fiction. 2 hours ago, Atgxtg said: But you are not open to the idea that not all change is necessarily for the better. Just becuase you think mixing A and B is a great ide doesn't mean that other will. Change for the sake of change isn't a good thing. Unless the game evolves it dies, kind of like Palladium is. Find good things from other rpg's that can be assimilated, then do so. Edited July 14, 2020 by RogerDee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 1 hour ago, RogerDee said: Rubbish - you are confusing game system with feel of the game. They are not the same thing, stop doing this! Game system has a huge effect on the feel of the game. That's why there are various RPGs that potray the same or similar settings. RuneQuest, HeroQuest and 13th Age all have supplements to run in Glorantha, yet each one plays and feels different. Likewise Chaosium published a Dragonlords of Melnibone supplement to run the Young Kingdoms using the D&D rules, and is isn't the same as running Stormbringer. Each set of game mechanics affects the way the game plays out/That's why we aren't all just playing D&D. Iron Crown's Middle Earth RPG, Decipher's Lord of the Rings RPG, and Cubic 7's The One Ring are all set in Middle Earth, yet they all play differently and have a different feel to them. THey are not all the same game. 1 hour ago, RogerDee said: Unless you are going to be able to bench press 800 pounds, and be 6'8" then this is just dumb. Why is is dumb. Look, the attributes used in a game are picked by the game designers and not necessarily required. Most games use stats similar to D&D because that was either how D&D did it, or the stats have become something of a legacy aspect of RPGs. But games can and have benn designed without them. 1 hour ago, RogerDee said: Make it a trait modifier to whatever stat you want. You don't need a stat for it. YOu don't need a stat for STR, CON or DEX either. If you read the stories the physical characters of the EC or his companisons rarely factor in the way they do in a RPG. 1 hour ago, RogerDee said: If you are doing a multiverse game, unless it takes in account different types of settings it is worthless garbage! That is just your opinion. I'll counter with "If you are doing a multiverse game, if it takes in account different types of settings it is worthless garbage!: Not every character or setting mixes well with another. For instance take a standard D&D world with standard D&D magic and mix with with most other settings and you ruin them. Pretty much all the Eternal Champion and Cthlhu stories become sort of meaninless if clerics can go around rasing the dead and wizards can blast stuff with high damage spells. When you mix settings and characters the various differences and incosistiences between them will crop up and force a GM to alter one or the other to make them both work. 1 hour ago, RogerDee said: DC has done it. The fictional book Transmigration of Souls did it. Doctor Who has done it. No, they haven't. Each created their own multiverse they didn't just grab everyone else. They couldn't. Yes, sometimes a comapny can arrange to do a crossover and mix characters from different universe for a bit, but that doesn't mean they can do so at their whim. Don't you understand that? For instance, unless you get permission from Michael Moorcock to use his Eternal Champion and multiverse stuff, you can't do so without violating his copyrights and being subject to legal action. It's a major reason why Chaosium doesn't reprint Stormbringer or make it available as a PDF, like many of their older games. Some things are in the public domain, mostly because their creators died long ago, and thus are fair game, but most of the stuff you are thinking of belongs to people. People who can opt to sue you for stealing their intellectual property. 1 hour ago, RogerDee said: On the grounds my previous post said Legend - Glorantha is not relevant It is if you make it part of your multiverse. You want to just pick and choose stuff, but if you accept something from a setting you have to accept all that comes with it. 1 hour ago, RogerDee said: Champions did it with Mystic World using the same system that Ken Hite used in Gurps Cabal - they just went into more detail. So yeah, you can totally do it. No. Champions created a multiverse, not taken someone elses specific multiverse. For a game desing standpoint you can do it, as long as you remove the stuff specfic to the orginal IP. Magic World is aprime example. It's basically the Stormbringer/Elric rules without any Michael Moorcock stuff. 1 hour ago, RogerDee said: It was in reference to the Terraphiles FFS. Oh. I haven't seen it. 1 hour ago, RogerDee said: Quote 1: It was an All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self—not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence’s whole unbounded sweep—the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike. Quote 2: "The waves surged forth again, and Carter knew that the BEING had heard. And now there poured from that limitless MIND a flood of knowledge and explanation which opened new vistas to the seeker, and prepared him for such a grasp of the cosmos as he had never hoped to possess. He was told how childish and limited is the notion of a tri-dimensional world, and what an infinity of directions there are besides the known directions of up-down, forward-backward, right-left. He was shewn the smallness and tinsel emptiness of the little gods of earth, with their petty, human interests and connexions—their hatreds, rages, loves, and vanities; their craving for praise and sacrifice, and their demands for faith contrary to reason and Nature. Quote 3: Then the waves increased in strength, and sought to improve his understanding, reconciling him to the multiform entity of which his present fragment was an infinitesimal part. They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension—as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity. The world of men and of the gods of men is merely an infinitesimal phase of an infinitesimal thing—the three-dimensional phase of that small wholeness reached by the First Gate, where ’Umr at-Tawil dictates dreams to the Ancient Ones. Though men hail it as reality and brand thoughts of its many-dimensioned original as unreality, it is in truth the very opposite. That which we call substance and reality is shadow and illusion, and that which we call shadow and illusion is substance and reality. https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/cthulhu-mythos-respect-thread.680410/ https://forums.spacebattles.com/threads/cthulhu-mythos-respect.335992/ Fan Fiction. You quote fan fiction as fact? 1 hour ago, RogerDee said: This is pretty much fact by anyone with a brain. So yeah, pretty much one of the most powerful beings in all of fiction. More like anyone who fails to use theirs. Let me push your claims a little. In Star Trek there are ultra powerful beings such as the Q who can wipe stuff out of existience with a mere snap of thier fingers. Is Yog Sooth immune to that? And if he is so powerful, how come he hans't managed to open the doorway to Earth? You see that's why there is no way to measures these things on an absolute scale. Lets say you create a all powerful being, and note it in a story. Now I create a character who in also all powerful. Is your all powerful being more powerful than mine? What if a write a sotry where my all powerful being kicks yours around? Unless there is some sort of absolute authority to go to it's just comes down to opinion. 1 hour ago, RogerDee said: Unless the game evolves it dies, No. There are quite a number of good games out there that haven't evolved much at all. An RPG thrives or not becuase it has an interesting setting, and good support in the form of adventures. 1 hour ago, RogerDee said: kind of like Palladium is. Find good things from other rpg's that can be assimilated, then do so. Palladium is great example as it disproves your argument. Palladium actually did pull all of it's settings together into one multiverse, RIFTS, which got it some attention for a bit, and then it died off because the novelty of the multiverse wore off. RIFTS mostly covered ground that Palladium had covered before, and relied on the ability to do crossovers to work. After a bit the novelty fades and people want good adventures. A game system is not better simply because it covers more settings and characters , but is better because of how it covers them. Look at how many FRPGs there are out there. Most cover the same ground with elves, dwarves, orcs, wizards, magical sword, and so on, but they are all different and have their own merits and drawbacks. 1 Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted July 14, 2020 Share Posted July 14, 2020 2 minutes ago, RogerDee said: I have tried my best to be charitable towards your statements, and tried to explain myself as best as possible. Yet you have essentially been- 1. Needlessly antagonistic 2. Pedantic 3. Obstinate 4. And been deliberately awkward at every step of the way, in essence making it difficult to progress this. I haven;t been atagonisitic, I've been trying to explain why what you wanted wasn't Stormbringer, or BRP anymore when you change the rules; and how you can't just take whatever IP you want and put in into a published game book. 2 minutes ago, RogerDee said: Those were direct quotes from Lovecraft writings you dumb fucking shit! Can you point out from where? And also can you show that when Lovecraft uses the terms like multidemisnonal that he means the same thing as Moorcock does -i.e. alternate realsities, and not something that just ins't a three dimensional object? 2 minutes ago, RogerDee said: You are so dumb, really you are! Insults won't get you anywhere. 2 minutes ago, RogerDee said: Marvel comics used Arioch as a Lord of Chaos, and servant of Shuma-Gorath. Dark Tower has used Randall Flagg, and called him Nyarlathotep; MArvel COmics got Moorcock permission to use Elric. As for the Cthlhu Mythos stuff, much of it is in the public domain as Lovecraft has been dead for over 80 years. I 2 minutes ago, RogerDee said: Doctor Who has featured innumerable Great Old Ones - in fact in DW the Great Intelligence is Yog-Sothoth - or their version of. Where on screen did they ever call the Great Intelligence Yog-Sottoth. 2 minutes ago, RogerDee said: DC Comics has the Lords of Order and Chaos, as well as angels, and demons - all of which are part of a higher world / dimension. Not the slightest bit similar to Moorcock - oh wait, it is! Similar yes, but not the same. It's perfectly okay to use similar concepts, but it isn't okay to just swipe them. If DC started to name thier Lords of Law and Chaso with the same names as that used by Moorcock, they would be vulnerable to legal action. 2 minutes ago, RogerDee said: Do we see the Q have the type of scale that Yoggy does? Oh wait, they don't. Are the Q a limitless intelligence....erm...no didn't think so. So yeah you van - you look at what the being can do. What have they accomplished? What has Yoogy accomplished. Oh, not much. He needs someone else to make a pathway for him. Realy, as far as all powerful entities goes, he's pretty much a non starter. 2 minutes ago, RogerDee said: We know the Q are limited, because evidence tells us. Quinn outright states that the Q may seem omnipotent - but they're not, and were like the federation /humans at some point. During the Q Civil War, Colonel Q outright states that if the battle continues the damage to subspace would be irreparable. So yeah, Q are limited. Their feats in EU are better, in some ways - but sadly none of them are currently canon. All enties are limited becuase unlimited entities don't work. It's the old paradox about an all powerful deity being powerful enough to create so big rock he cannot lift it. If he can't make it, then he isn't allpowerful, and if he can make it he is. Thing thing with Star Trek's point of view is that is writes from the view of a rational, explainable universe, while Lovecraft wrote the the point of view that the universe contained things that mankind not only shouldn't know, but could't comprehend or accept even if it did. If you mix them into the same universe (which, btw, Robert Block did in What Are Little Girls Made Of?) you need to somehow reconcile those view. In Bloch case, he just named dropped the Old Ones and left everything else according to the Trek Paradigm. 2 minutes ago, RogerDee said: No they thrive because they have to reinvent and improve - support is largely irrelevant. L5R, DnD, Pathfinder, Shadowrun, World of Darkness. All of the big names seek to improve, find better ways to do things. Sorry but you're dead wrong there. Every successful RPG survives because of support. All the games you mentioned publish lots of supplements. THat is how the compnaies make money and how their games thrive. D&D thrived and dominated because of the sheer number of supplements, especially adventures it produces compared to other RPGs. In factD&D remained pretty much the same for nearly 20 years in it's AD&D incarnation. But during that time most the supplements you'd see on the shelf at a gaming store or book store were from TSR. It wasn't until other companies started to publish lots of supplements that TSR's market share slipped. D&D 3E was OLG specifically to try and lure other companies into producing D&D supplements and secure D&D's dominance. Lots of companies did including most of the ones on your list, to get a bit of that D&D money. It why AEG's did a D20 version of L5R and began producing multi system supplements. It was why Chaosium printed Dragonlords of Melnibone. TO sell to a bigger fanbase. . Companies make money when people buy product, not when they use the product. SO a RPG without any support only generates income when the core rulebook sells. Hence every successful RPG company [generates adventures and other supplements to keep the money coming in. It's also a major reason for the "new edition every few years" model that many companies adopt. It allows them to sell people the rulebooks all over again. It's not the only reason for new editions, but it is a reason. Oh, and not every new change or version is an improvement. Each RPG has to compete with the memory of it's predecessor and if the fans don't like the new version they won't buy or play it. Pathfinder was successful because D&D 4E didn't do better with the fanbase that 3E. I know plenty of gamers who haven't switched from 3E, and just as many who prefer to play so called "dead" RPGs that haven't changed at all. If the GM can write good adventures for the players with what already exists, then the game doesn't need to change. 2 Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus Bone Posted July 19, 2020 Author Share Posted July 19, 2020 Right, so I'm not an admin here on this forum anymore but please @RogerDee & @Atgxtg can we refrain from personal attacks and use of bad language? I understand we have all different ways to interpret the EC Multiverse and that there are a myriad of ways of playing those out at the game table, but we really need to respect each other's opinions. Marcus Quote Stormbringer! - Exploring the worlds of the Eternal Champion at http://www.stormbringerrpg.com Unbound Publishing - Bringing back the fear - http://www.unboundbook.org DCtRPG.info - Supporting Dark Conspiracy across the decades - http://www.darkconspiracytherpg.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 5 hours ago, Marcus Bone said: Right, so I'm not an admin here on this forum anymore but please @RogerDee & @Atgxtg can we refrain from personal attacks and use of bad language? I understand we have all different ways to interpret the EC Multiverse and that there are a myriad of ways of playing those out at the game table, but we really need to respect each other's opinions. Marcus Marcus, I don't believe I have engaged in any personal attacks or use of bad language, although I will admit to be guilty of typos. I only disagreed with RogerDee over what would be good for Stormbringer. If I have posted anything here that someone considers to be a personal attack or to use bad language, then I apologize, as that was not my intent. Doing so would make it harder to get my points across. Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simlasa Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 9 hours ago, Marcus Bone said: we really need to respect each other's opinions. Nonsense! I respect other people having a right to have an opinion, but I don't need to respect the opinion itself. If some guy starts telling me the Earth is flat, or how some group of people are subhuman, or outright falsehoods about how some game system works... I don't need to 'respect' that. Also, from what I've read, Atgxtg has been VERY patient with RogerDee and refrained from personal attacks... whereas RogerDee HAS crossed that line. Atgxtg might want to step away to save their blood pressure, because it seems to be like arguing with an stone... but otherwise I think it's RogerDee who needs to get a clue and be a bit more polite. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerDee Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Simlasa said: Also, from what I've read, Atgxtg has been VERY patient with RogerDee and refrained from personal attacks... whereas RogerDee HAS crossed that line. Atgxtg might want to step away to save their blood pressure, because it seems to be like arguing with an stone... but otherwise I think it's RogerDee who needs to get a clue and be a bit more polite. Rubbish. I have very patiently tried to explain my point of view, and no I do not need 'get a clue.' On 7/14/2020 at 9:52 PM, Atgxtg said: Similar yes, but not the same. It's perfectly okay to use similar concepts, but it isn't okay to just swipe them. If DC started to name thier Lords of Law and Chaso with the same names as that used by Moorcock, they would be vulnerable to legal action. You finally have it, hooray! You can call them Old Ones, Lords of chaos or order -you just don't need to use the same names. In some cases you can get away with an expy. On 7/14/2020 at 9:52 PM, Atgxtg said: MArvel COmics got Moorcock permission to use Elric. As for the Cthlhu Mythos stuff, much of it is in the public domain as Lovecraft has been dead for over 80 years. This particular story had nothing to do with Elric - it just so happened a Lord of Chaos, and servant of Shuma Gorath was called Arioch. On 7/14/2020 at 9:52 PM, Atgxtg said: Where on screen did they ever call the Great Intelligence Yog-Sottoth. They didn't it is part of EU Lore. On 7/14/2020 at 9:52 PM, Atgxtg said: WThing thing with Star Trek's point of view is that is writes from the view of a rational, explainable universe, while Lovecraft wrote the the point of view that the universe contained things that mankind not only shouldn't know, but could't comprehend or accept even if it did. Star Trek universe may be rational, and in many ways is the same, in principle to Call of Cthulhu. It has things that man was never meant to know. "It has wonders both subtle and gross, and terrors to freeze your soul. But it is not for the timid." On 7/14/2020 at 9:52 PM, Atgxtg said: What has Yoogy accomplished. Oh, not much. He needs someone else to make a pathway for him. Realy, as far as all powerful entities goes, he's pretty much a non starter. Absolutely and totally false. Story: https://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/fiction/tgsk.aspx Quote 1: There were “Carters” in settings belonging to every known and suspected age of earth’s history, and to remoter ages of earthly entity transcending knowledge, suspicion, and credibility. “Carters” of forms both human and non-human, vertebrate and invertebrate, conscious and mindless, animal and vegetable. And more, there were “Carters” having nothing in common with earthly life, but moving outrageously amidst backgrounds of other planets and systems and galaxies and cosmic continua. This shows us that reincarnation likely exists, that there is some kind of soul, and the Atman are separate - and that that they exist in a Type I multiverse. Quote 2: Spores of eternal life drifting from world to world, universe to universe, yet all equally himself. Some of the glimpses recalled dreams—both faint and vivid, single and persistent—which he had had through the long years since he first began to dream, and a few possessed a haunting, fascinating, and almost horrible familiarity which no earthly logic could explain. Further hinted below. Quote 3: His self had been annihilated; and yet he—if indeed there could, in view of that utter nullity of individual existence, be such a thing as he—was equally aware of being in some inconceivable way a legion of selves. Quote 4: In the face of that awful wonder, the quasi-Carter forgot the horror of destroyed individuality. It was an All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self—not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence’s whole unbounded sweep—the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike. This hints that the being is tied to the very multiverse itself, and in all likelihood is HPL's version of Narayana, tied not to one one universe, but every single one of them. Quote 5: “What you wish, I have found good; and I am ready to grant that which I have granted eleven times only to beings of your planet—five times only to those you call men, or those resembling them. I am ready to shew you the Ultimate Mystery, to look on which is to blast a feeble spirit. Yet before you gaze full at that last and first of secrets you may still wield a free choice, and return if you will through the two Gates with the Veil still unrent before your eyes.” Five humans have reached this stage, and six other nonhumans on Earth. Quote 6:: Then the waves increased in strength, and sought to improve his understanding, reconciling him to the multiform entity of which his present fragment was an infinitesimal part. Hints that there is a Supreme Self, a Supreme Carter - and to use a term from Hinduism - it is his Atman. Quote 7: They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension—as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity. It hints that there are infinite dimensions, and hints that even time (4th dimension) is small to such a being. Quote 8: Time, the waves went on, is motionless, and without beginning or end. That it has motion, and is the cause of change, is an illusion. Indeed, it is itself really an illusion, for except to the narrow sight of beings in limited dimensions there are no such things as past, present, and future. Men think of time only because of what they call change, yet that too is illusion. All that was, and is, and is to be, exists simultaneously. All time happens simultaneously, such that Yoggy is nonlinear in nature, and confirms time is meaningless to it. Quote 9: All descended lines of beings of the finite dimensions, continued the waves, and all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions Quote 10: Randolph Carter and all his ancestors both human and pre-human, terrestrial and pre-terrestrial; all these were only phases of one ultimate, eternal “Carter” outside space and time—phantom projections differentiated only by the angle at which the plane of consciousness happened to cut the eternal archetype in each case Confirmation that the Atman exists, of some kind of Ultimate Self. Edited July 19, 2020 by RogerDee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted July 19, 2020 Share Posted July 19, 2020 3 hours ago, RogerDee said: Rubbish. I have very patiently tried to explain my point of view, and no I do not need 'get a clue.' You called me stupid and used profanity. 3 hours ago, RogerDee said: You finally have it, hooray! You can call them Old Ones, Lords of chaos or order -you just don't need to use the same names. In some cases you can get away with an expy. I "had iit" a long time ago. What I've been trying point out is that generic copies of things are not true to the soruce matertial, not will it work out the same way as the orginal. 3 hours ago, RogerDee said: This particular story had nothing to do with Elric - it just so happened a Lord of Chaos, and servant of Shuma Gorath was called Arioch. Yes, because the writers at Marvel had read Moorcock and thre the name in as as homage to Moorcock. But there is a huge difference between doing a quick one off like that and making something part of the establish continuity. 3 hours ago, RogerDee said: They didn't it is part of EU Lore. Which means it isn't canon, so it isn't actually true. Look anybody can claim anything about two different characters, but unless it is acknowedlged by an offical source it's never happened. People put together all sorts of crossover stories all the time. Officially, Bambi did not get stepped on by Godzilla, no matter what might be out in a fan film. 3 hours ago, RogerDee said: Star Trek universe may be rational, and in many ways is the same, in principle to Call of Cthulhu. It has things that man was never meant to know. "It has wonders both subtle and gross, and terrors to freeze your soul. But it is not for the timid." Hold it Q. There is nothing in Star Trek that "man was not meant to know'. THe quite you gave from Q, in the epsiode which introduced the Borg, was to try and scare mankind from exploring, and it didn't succeed. 3 hours ago, RogerDee said: Absolutely and totally false. You fail to grasp that anything and everything major in the Cthulhu Mythos related is described as being beyond human power and comprehension by Lovecraft. It is a foundation for the Mthos , as it is all about the horror of the unknown and unknowable. So Lovecraft will go on with how powerful, terrible something is, without actually showing it do anything. What we do see, by the stories is that Yoggy, and most of the other Mythos nasties, cannot act for some reason, becuase if they did, we'd be finsiehd. That's also another example of how the world of Lovecraft and MUltiverse of Moorcock differ. The Eternal Champion is humanity's champion and a prime agent of the Cosmic Balance. He is quite a powerful force in the multiverse, as shown in the various EC stories. Yet by Lovecraft's standardards, he would only be human and thus outclassed and unable to comprehend the various Mythos entities. If fact the very idea of a Cosmic Balance is anathema to Lovecraft's core concept, of a mad universe filled with powerful beings that only spare us because we are beneath their notice. . 3 hours ago, RogerDee said: Story: https://www.hplovecraft.com/writings/texts/fiction/tgsk.aspx Quote 1: There were “Carters” in settings belonging to every known and suspected age of earth’s history, and to remoter ages of earthly entity transcending knowledge, suspicion, and credibility. “Carters” of forms both human and non-human, vertebrate and invertebrate, conscious and mindless, animal and vegetable. And more, there were “Carters” having nothing in common with earthly life, but moving outrageously amidst backgrounds of other planets and systems and galaxies and cosmic continua. This shows us that reincarnation likely exists, that there is some kind of soul, and the Atman are separate - and that that they exist in a Type I multiverse. No it does't. It shows up that there are "Carter's" throughout Earth's past, and throughout the cosmos. Space is a big place. It doesn't mean that there is any sort of multiverse. You can choose to believe that there is one, but is not implied by the text. Likewise the quote doesn't explain just what qualifies as being a "Carter" either. 3 hours ago, RogerDee said: Quote 2: Spores of eternal life drifting from world to world, universe to universe, yet all equally himself. Some of the glimpses recalled dreams—both faint and vivid, single and persistent—which he had had through the long years since he first began to dream, and a few possessed a haunting, fascinating, and almost horrible familiarity which no earthly logic could explain. Further hinted below. Which again doesn't mean a multiverse. In fact the bit "which no earthly logic could explain" would mean that any sort of explanation you come up with for it would by definition, not be able to explain it. 3 hours ago, RogerDee said: Quote 3: His self had been annihilated; and yet he—if indeed there could, in view of that utter nullity of individual existence, be such a thing as he—was equally aware of being in some inconceivable way a legion of selves. Which can mean a lot of things other than the Eternal Champion. For instance, it could refer to the ceoncept of the Akasha, a sort of group consciousness. 4 hours ago, RogerDee said: Quote 4: In the face of that awful wonder, the quasi-Carter forgot the horror of destroyed individuality. It was an All-in-One and One-in-All of limitless being and self—not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum, but allied to the ultimate animating essence of existence’s whole unbounded sweep—the last, utter sweep which has no confines and which outreaches fancy and mathematics alike. This hints that the being is tied to the very multiverse itself, and in all likelihood is HPL's version of Narayana, tied not to one one universe, but every single one of them. No it doesn't hint that, because Lovecraft doesn't state that there is a multiverse. You basic methodology isn't sound. You are deciding on the outcome you want, and then deliberately interpreting things in the way that you want, so as to back up your pre-determined results. It's like someone "investigating" a UFO incident by stating that they know it was a UFO before they even look at the evidence. 4 hours ago, RogerDee said: Quote 5: “What you wish, I have found good; and I am ready to grant that which I have granted eleven times only to beings of your planet—five times only to those you call men, or those resembling them. I am ready to shew you the Ultimate Mystery, to look on which is to blast a feeble spirit. Yet before you gaze full at that last and first of secrets you may still wield a free choice, and return if you will through the two Gates with the Veil still unrent before your eyes.” Five humans have reached this stage, and six other nonhumans on Earth. All of which means what, exactly? Look, Lovecraft loved to use adjectives and make stuff out to be bigger and beyond humans, because that was what made for a good horror story and setting for the Mythos. It doesn't mean anything when compared to another authors setting. 4 hours ago, RogerDee said: Quote 6:: Then the waves increased in strength, and sought to improve his understanding, reconciling him to the multiform entity of which his present fragment was an infinitesimal part. Again, which means, what, exactly. It is just anyother vague alien powerful comment. It has not context to give it any meaning. LOvecraft loved to use comments like that to push his narrative that mankind did not and could not understand the universe. 4 hours ago, RogerDee said: Hints that there is a Supreme Self, a Supreme Carter - and to use a term from Hinduism - it is his Atman. None of which has any meaning in regards to Moorcock multiverse and Stormbinger.You might want to intrpret as all being part of the same thing, but that is just you wanting it to be that way., not something supported by the soruce material. 4 hours ago, RogerDee said: Quote 7: They told him that every figure of space is but the result of the intersection by a plane of some corresponding figure of one more dimension—as a square is cut from a cube or a circle from a sphere. The cube and sphere, of three dimensions, are thus cut from corresponding forms of four dimensions that men know only through guesses and dreams; and these in turn are cut from forms of five dimensions, and so on up to the dizzy and reachless heights of archetypal infinity. It hints that there are infinite dimensions, and hints that even time (4th dimension) is small to such a being. Yes, and it means nothing. There are scienstist today stupdying Quatum mechanics who postiatephsicists today who talk about a 11 dimesion, and 27 diemion universe. Does that make them smarter that Yog Sotthoth. And again, none of that has anything to do with a multiverse, nor does it mean that Yoggy is one of the most pwoerful beings in creation. It simply means that Ypoggy is more pwoerfula nd more aware that a human- which is the whole point. 4 hours ago, RogerDee said: Quote 8: Time, the waves went on, is motionless, and without beginning or end. That it has motion, and is the cause of change, is an illusion. Indeed, it is itself really an illusion, for except to the narrow sight of beings in limited dimensions there are no such things as past, present, and future. Men think of time only because of what they call change, yet that too is illusion. All that was, and is, and is to be, exists simultaneously. All time happens simultaneously, such that Yoggy is nonlinear in nature, and confirms time is meaningless to it. Once again the quite desont' prove your conclusion. For instance the quote states "Men think of time only because of what they call change, yet that too is illusion" which hints at something more that a being that views all time as one. 4 hours ago, RogerDee said: Quote 9: All descended lines of beings of the finite dimensions, continued the waves, and all stages of growth in each one of these beings, are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions Quote 10: Randolph Carter and all his ancestors both human and pre-human, terrestrial and pre-terrestrial; all these were only phases of one ultimate, eternal “Carter” outside space and time—phantom projections differentiated only by the angle at which the plane of consciousness happened to cut the eternal archetype in each case Confirmation that the Atman exists, of some kind of Ultimate Self. Not confirmation of anything, other that Yoggy is beyond mere mortals. It doesn't even rank him compared to the other Mythos power houses. Once again, I will point out that you are free to mix and match universe in your own games however you wish. But I will also point out that everyone else is free to interpret things the way they wish, as well. In order for something to be "Stormbringer" it has to be something that comes from Moorcock's works, or can be extrapolated from them. But you just want to mix all sorts of stuff on a whim and expect everyone else to go along with your interpretation of things. But hey let me give you a quote for a change, this is from the Multiverse Wiki: Kwll and Rhynn, now complete, were the most powerful beings in the Multiverse, and were even able to disregard the Cosmic Balance. They fulfilled their oath and slew all the Chaos Lords, but they also killed the Lords of Law for good measure, leaving mortals free to weave their own destiny, without the meddling of any gods from either side. Now since Kwll and Rhynn were the most pwoerful beings in the multiverse, they were certinaly more powerfult an Yog-Sottoth, whom they destroyed along will all the other gods. 2 Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RogerDee Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 (edited) 8 hours ago, Atgxtg said: You called me stupid and used profanity. I "had iit" a long time ago. What I've been trying point out is that generic copies of things are not true to the soruce matertial, not will it work out the same way as the orginal. Yes, because the writers at Marvel had read Moorcock and thre the name in as as homage to Moorcock. But there is a huge difference between doing a quick one off like that and making something part of the establish continuity. Which means it isn't canon, so it isn't actually true. Look anybody can claim anything about two different characters, but unless it is acknowedlged by an offical source it's never happened. People put together all sorts of crossover stories all the time. Officially, Bambi did not get stepped on by Godzilla, no matter what might be out in a fan film. Hold it Q. There is nothing in Star Trek that "man was not meant to know'. THe quite you gave from Q, in the epsiode which introduced the Borg, was to try and scare mankind from exploring, and it didn't succeed. You fail to grasp that anything and everything major in the Cthulhu Mythos related is described as being beyond human power and comprehension by Lovecraft. It is a foundation for the Mthos , as it is all about the horror of the unknown and unknowable. So Lovecraft will go on with how powerful, terrible something is, without actually showing it do anything. What we do see, by the stories is that Yoggy, and most of the other Mythos nasties, cannot act for some reason, becuase if they did, we'd be finsiehd. That's also another example of how the world of Lovecraft and MUltiverse of Moorcock differ. The Eternal Champion is humanity's champion and a prime agent of the Cosmic Balance. He is quite a powerful force in the multiverse, as shown in the various EC stories. Yet by Lovecraft's standardards, he would only be human and thus outclassed and unable to comprehend the various Mythos entities. If fact the very idea of a Cosmic Balance is anathema to Lovecraft's core concept, of a mad universe filled with powerful beings that only spare us because we are beneath their notice. . No it does't. It shows up that there are "Carter's" throughout Earth's past, and throughout the cosmos. Space is a big place. It doesn't mean that there is any sort of multiverse. You can choose to believe that there is one, but is not implied by the text. Likewise the quote doesn't explain just what qualifies as being a "Carter" either. Which again doesn't mean a multiverse. In fact the bit "which no earthly logic could explain" would mean that any sort of explanation you come up with for it would by definition, not be able to explain it. Which can mean a lot of things other than the Eternal Champion. For instance, it could refer to the ceoncept of the Akasha, a sort of group consciousness. No it doesn't hint that, because Lovecraft doesn't state that there is a multiverse. You basic methodology isn't sound. You are deciding on the outcome you want, and then deliberately interpreting things in the way that you want, so as to back up your pre-determined results. It's like someone "investigating" a UFO incident by stating that they know it was a UFO before they even look at the evidence. All of which means what, exactly? Look, Lovecraft loved to use adjectives and make stuff out to be bigger and beyond humans, because that was what made for a good horror story and setting for the Mythos. It doesn't mean anything when compared to another authors setting. Again, which means, what, exactly. It is just anyother vague alien powerful comment. It has not context to give it any meaning. LOvecraft loved to use comments like that to push his narrative that mankind did not and could not understand the universe. None of which has any meaning in regards to Moorcock multiverse and Stormbinger.You might want to intrpret as all being part of the same thing, but that is just you wanting it to be that way., not something supported by the soruce material. Yes, and it means nothing. There are scienstist today stupdying Quatum mechanics who postiatephsicists today who talk about a 11 dimesion, and 27 diemion universe. Does that make them smarter that Yog Sotthoth. And again, none of that has anything to do with a multiverse, nor does it mean that Yoggy is one of the most pwoerful beings in creation. It simply means that Ypoggy is more pwoerfula nd more aware that a human- which is the whole point. Once again the quite desont' prove your conclusion. For instance the quote states "Men think of time only because of what they call change, yet that too is illusion" which hints at something more that a being that views all time as one. Not confirmation of anything, other that Yoggy is beyond mere mortals. It doesn't even rank him compared to the other Mythos power houses. Once again, I will point out that you are free to mix and match universe in your own games however you wish. But I will also point out that everyone else is free to interpret things the way they wish, as well. In order for something to be "Stormbringer" it has to be something that comes from Moorcock's works, or can be extrapolated from them. But you just want to mix all sorts of stuff on a whim and expect everyone else to go along with your interpretation of things. But hey let me give you a quote for a change, this is from the Multiverse Wiki: Kwll and Rhynn, now complete, were the most powerful beings in the Multiverse, and were even able to disregard the Cosmic Balance. They fulfilled their oath and slew all the Chaos Lords, but they also killed the Lords of Law for good measure, leaving mortals free to weave their own destiny, without the meddling of any gods from either side. Now since Kwll and Rhynn were the most pwoerful beings in the multiverse, they were certinaly more powerfult an Yog-Sottoth, whom they destroyed along will all the other gods. 1. I called you stupid because you totally ignored evidence from a feat thread full of Lovecraft quotes calling it fan fiction. 2. There is no canon policy for Doctor Who I'm afraid. Literally none, of any kind. Now if you have your own 'head' canon like I do, that being Tv and EU as being totally different. 3. Lots of things in Trek are things man was not meant to know, and seem blatantly supernatural - we have Organians, various weird energy beings or sentient parts of space, Douwd - all of which accomplish various actions without technology. Plus we have psychic powers too add on into the mix. 4. False - humanity is able to grasp the Mythos, Through the Gates is a prime example of that. Having his self and humanity stripped away as a result. 5. It says quite clearly in Quote 1. "galaxies and cosmic continua." meaning more than one cosmos, so this shows your statement to be wrong. 6. Again it clearly shows multiple universes, Quote 2 "Spores of eternal life drifting from world to world, universe to universe, " So again your statement is proven wrong, and there is in fact a multiverse, and that it is a Type I multiverse. 7. Again false, it clearly says there are multiple selves. Yet again ignoring of evidence. 8. Begging the question. Just because t does not mention multiverse, it does not mean it is not there. It has to show the principles, which indeed it does. In plain English no less. In point of fact Moorcock is the first person to use the terminology in his fiction in 1963, way after HPL time, so using this as measuring stick is dishonest. As Quote 7 very clearly says "not merely a thing of one Space-Time continuum." so again this proves you are wrong. 9. In regards to quote 5, it means that there are secrets left for Carter to know, and to uncover of the supposed unknowable Cthulhu Mythos. 10. It seems you are reading these quotes in isolation, try reading in context of the whole story. The whole story is essentially a lift from Hindu mythology, with regards to Atman, and Narayana. The multiple selves being individual beings with consciousness, and the Supreme Self, the true ultimate Carter, made up of infinite versions of himself, something which is backup with the aforementioned quotes. 11. Re quote 7. Appeal to ridicule, coupled with an Appeal to ignorance. Wow, I mean, just wow - it's a twofer. Again your statement is utter rubbish. 11 dimensions refer to the universe having 3, and the others are curled up and microscopic. In fact the Yoggy quotes, specifically refer to time as being in the fourth dimension, in the same way we are in the third dimension. At the time, it was a novelty, nowadays this thinking is a bit of a trope. But in the terms on HPL fiction - if that is how is designed his multiverse, that is how it rolls. In many ways, this set up is very similar to Doctor Who. 12. Regarding quote 8. ignoring of evidence yet again. How disingenuous of you. In fact it clearly says "All that was, and is, and is to be, exists simultaneously." so you are again wrong. 13. Re quote 9 & 10. As the quote is regarding Carter, and nothing to do with Yoggy, and it says quote clearly says are merely manifestations of one archetypal and eternal being in the space outside dimensions" again proving your statement false. Seriously, is English your second language by any chance? as that would certainly explain a few things. if not, then try reading them again, in context of the whole and not taken separately. 14. Re Kyll and Rhynn. Firstly that is another list of dumbest things said on this forum - most are by you by the way. Secondly. Yoggy is tied to the multiverse itself, so no. Also, if they were that powerful did they kill the Original Insect? Or did they kill God? I think on both counts that is a nope. So if they failed to kill powerful beings, instead of just angels (Lords of Chaos and Order respectively), they have no chance of killing Yoggy. So false yet again. As far as I can see, you are actively Ignoring Evidence, using Appeal of Ignorance, and others, such that the list of fallacies you are hiding behind is actively showing your true traits. So at this point I am fairly sure you are actively trolling! Edited July 20, 2020 by RogerDee Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trifletraxor Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 You guys... 3 Quote Ef plest master, this mighty fine grub! 116/420. High Priest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason D Posted July 20, 2020 Share Posted July 20, 2020 On 7/14/2020 at 9:17 AM, RogerDee said: Where do you think Lords of Gossamer ideas came from man? It is clearly a combination of Elric and the Dark Tower, and DnD. The inspirations for Lords of Gossamer & Shadow are listed on page 155 of the core rulebook, and do not include any of those sources. Take my word on this. 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caldor Brassnose Posted March 1, 2021 Share Posted March 1, 2021 Just rediscovered my old copy of Stormbringer (I throw nothing away it seems) GW/Chaosium edition and have decided to try and bring some old school sword & sorcery to my current players (all of whom are below 40 and have no knowledge of the Young Kingdoms). I have picked up pdfs of Magic World & Advanced Sorcery to have a look. Let's see how things go... 6 Quote “Yes, there are some backs on the street which cry for the knife.” Caldor Brassnose - Beggar Prince of Nadsokor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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