Guide to Glorantha Group Read Week 3 - Fonritian

[David Scott]

Fonritian Section discussion!

Main thread: https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6492-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-3/

Week 3 errors: https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6432-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-3-errors/

Here's one of the sketches for the Fonritian illustration by Jeff Laubenstein

Here's the original art direction from 2012 (links not checked):

Fonritan Overview

 A cruel slavocracy, slavery defines and dominates Fonritan society. The descendants of Doraddi gone horribly wrong and their rulers perverted by Chaos worship, Fonritans hold that Life is Slavery. They reason that the soul is slave to the body, the powers and elements are slaves to the Runes, people are slaves of their ruler, and the gods are slaves to Time. In short, they acknowledge Slavery as the Order of the Cosmos, and submit to it. Outsiders often claim that this philosophy is merely a justification for the cruelty of the upper classes.

The people of Fonrit have blue, black, or white skin, as well as any possible mixture thereof. Most of the ruling class are black Agimori, while the most miserable slaves are predominantly blue-skinned Veldangi. The majority of the population is of mixed blue and black origin, called the Torabs.

Free men wear a flowing wide sleeved robe, usually decorated with intricate embroidery or a tunic and wrap-around skirt. They wear jewelry, including beaded collars, gold necklaces, arm rings, and anklets, and high conical hats, often with projections extending from the top. Free women typically wear flowing robes, face veils, and even more jewelry than men. Veils are worn by married women. Slaves are attired as their owner provides or as their occupation requires, most typically just a wrap-around skirt. Wealthy slaves wear jewelry. Temple slaves (who may be richer and more powerful than any masarin) are dressed in accordance with the wishes of their god. Military slaves carry weapons and wear armor. Kaddam, at the other extreme, often wear little more than a breech-cloth. Wool and linen, often vibrantly colored, are the most common textiles, although silk is favored by the rich. Decorations such as embroidery, fringe, exotic feathers, gems, and even gold-dust are used by those who can afford them.

Slaves are marked with scarification and tattoos that display ownership and occupation. Scarification is also used for initiatory status.

Fonrit is Bronze or Early Iron Age in technology. Spears and swords are the primary weapons. Fonritan slave soldiers use a heavy curved single-edged sword; masarin carry a very broad, leaf-shaped short sword. Shields are large and made of hide. Barbed javelins and crossbows are typical missile weapons. Armor is typically helmets and breastplates made of bronze or thick hide.

Fig. 1. Female Masarin Sorcerer: At the top of Fonritan society are the city tyrants, called a jann, who serves only their personal gods. Each tyrant is served by free nobles, called masarin, who own vast numbers of slaves but are not owned by other individuals (but can be owned by gods). Masarin make up no more than 5% of the population. Sorcery is common in Fonrit. Sorcerers seek to understand and manipulate the magical master-slave hierarchies and networks that order the Otherworld.

Our female masarin sorcerer is dark-skinned with facial features that look Somali or Eritrean. She wears a golden veil like http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0510/feature2/images/gallery.2.4.jpg. She wears a long, ornately embroidered, wide sleeved robe like http://www.geminitourism.com/Post/PostDosyalar/image/0-Mailing/kaftan.JPG. Her eyes are darkly rimmed with kohl and she wears make up. She is decked out in jewelry: beaded collar, gold neckrings, arm rings, anklets, bracelets, earrings, nose rings, and more. Her nails are extremely long and elaborately lacquered - she is displaying that she never has to do any physical labor. Runes that could be on her include the Chaos Rune, the Fire Rune, the Mastery Rune, the Law Rune, the Moon Rune, and the Illusion Rune. He skin is intricately marked with occult symbols displaying the magical hierarchies she has mastered.

Fig. 2. Male Slave Soldier. About 5% of the population is slave soldiers who form an entrenched military caste in Fonritan society. They are better treated than other slaves and typically segregated into their own barracks-communities. They are similar in conception to the Mamluks of Egypt or the Slave Dynasty of Delhi. They are primarily infantry, although some cities maintain war elephants.

Our male slave soldier is a torab (of mixed black and blue origin - you can decide what that should look like). He wears an ornate bronze breastplate over a cotton skirt and tall protective helmet. The look should be based on the Benin Bronzes:

http://wysinger.homestead.com/benin44.jpg

http://www.flickr.com/photos/thecolchesterkid/4379747215/

http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/course/79-104/Readings/Gallery/Gallery1/HWC494.jpg

http://cdn5.wn.com/pd/4a/46/bb7c14b91117899fbdb436e2df06_grande.jpg

http://www.galerie-herrmann.com/arts/art3/Ife_Benin/87_Krieger_Leo/Warrior_gr.jpg

He carries a heavy, curved, single-edged sword like this: http://i.pbase.com/o6/93/329493/1/126240773.5vxB7fg5.LondonMar10462.jpg (with the Death Rune carved on the blade) and also a heavy hide shield. He might also have a barbed javelin or crossbow.

Around his arms he wears protective amulets with the symbols of the Sun and the Moon.

He is marked on the face and limbs with ritual scarification, which marks him as a slave soldier of this city-state.

Edited July 10, 2017 by David Scott

[davecake]

My assumption is that the weapons are restricted by custom, not law - e.g. a slave champion, gladiator or bodyguard of high status might use a masarin style short sword, the reason slave soldiers use a heavy single sided sword is they are cheap to manufacture in quantity (like a Chinese saber). 

First I have heard of Fonritian slavers attacking Seshnela! Where else in Genertela are they likely to attack? 

We know very little about pre-Garangordite first age Fonrit (apart from Thinokos).  The rule of Jraktal The Tap implies an exploitative sorcerous rulership, but in practice it sounds as if the conquered Veldang were animists or theists, and relatively peaceful. But we also know little of the Hungry Goddess of the Veldang. 

The section on crafts implies the existence of that classic RPG and fantasy literature institution, the assassins guild.

I also have always assumed alchemy and perfume making were branches of the same profession, but this section implies they are different - and checking Revealed Mythologies, this is my error, as they have different divine patrons.  

There appears to be a native Fonritian sorcery tradition. How much this is related to the worship of the Glorious Ones I don't know? I would assume that Fonritian sorcery has some influences from both the God Learners and the ancient Vaseline practices. Some Malkioni influence via Umathela is also likely. 

[davecake]

Deities list - the Hungry Goddess remains little more than a name. I'd love to know more.

Ikadz and Seseine are both known, explicitly under those names, in both Fonrit and Peloria, but not really anywhere else. It would be really interesting to know which region is the source (I'm assuming Fonritian, as neither deity is mentioned in GROY or the Entekosiad, and Seseine appears in other Pamaltelan myths), and how they came to known. I personally think both have their origins in Vadeli practices, but what is the Pelorian connection? Somehow via the Artmali/Blue Moon connection? Or a God Learner thing? 

 

[jrutila]

All of this section was new to me. Nice to see that there is some civilization in Pamaltela also. I think slavery is a central point of Fonritian culture. Every chapter had some kind of mention about slavery and I like how the whole culture builds upon that even in the god level. I can't help but draw similarities to Westeros and Slaver's Bay. At least in the tv series the city was liberated from an old habit and way of life (haven't read the books, sorry). I would imagine that "liberating" Fonritians would shake their core religious foundation and face much bigger oppression (against dragons, hmm..).

[davecake]

The Slavers Bay analogy isn't bad, but yes, many Fonritans take it even further, and don't even philosophically acknowledge the idea of freedom. And I think if you took that foundation away, yes, their religious foundations shaken the rulers would be likely to turn to Vadeli nihilism and Chaos. 

Live also heard Fonrit described as mixing West Africa and Moorcock's Melniboné.

The blues understand the idea of freedom, but have nearly forgotten what it's like, I think there would be a lot of desire for vengeance before they even tried to be really free. I think it would get very bloody indeed. 

[davecake]

Fonrit is an area ripe for some really fun gaming possibilities- but like many cool gaming settings, that's because it's an incredibly awful place by many criteria, with all manner of ghastly, horrific, vicious and lurid goings on. 

[metcalph]

p43 I must confess the name of Jraktal the Tap doesn't do much for me.  It kind of implies that the Gods of Fonrit are associated with household appliances such as bathtub or kitchen sink.  Jraktal the Stealer of Souls say, would have been far more evocative to me.  Likewise the description of him as a Western Demon sticks out as a obvious God Learnerism.  A Vadeli demon might have been more accurate.

p44 I like the Benin appearance of the Fonritan soldier (looking it up I see the Benin Empire was originally ruled by the Ogisu dynasty - ha ha!).  It looks so much more interesting that the Barbary Coast model originally proposed for Fonrit.

p45 mention of flaunting the Chaos Rune on the sidebar of the Fonritan Sorcerors appearance is the first clue that Fonrit is an Awesomely Bad Place.

p46 on the topic of what the Artmali were like before Garangordos, the description of Selarn is suggestive.  Founded in the Great Darkness and having survived the harsh government and secret police of their rulers for centuries suggests at least one Artmali place had such traditions.

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

But we also know little of the Hungry Goddess of the Veldang. 

There's a suggestion in the past that she might be known as Krarsht.  

1 hour ago, davecake said:

There appears to be a native Fonritian sorcery tradition. How much this is related to the worship of the Glorious Ones I don't know? I would assume that Fonritian sorcery has some influences from both the God Learners and the ancient Vaseline practices. Some Malkioni influence via Umathela is also likely. 

A Jeff article has suggested that Ompalam is another name for the Invisible God (whether it was the local Vadeli name, I dunno).  But since Slavery is good, dedicating yourself to the Gods is also good which is why Sorcery is not as prominent as in Malkioni lands.  So the root source of Fonritan sorcery is Vadeli with some subsequent copying of the Abiding Book.  Then you would have the Silence and also the more recent Vadeli revelations. 

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, davecake said:

Ikadz and Seseine are both known, explicitly under those names, in both Fonrit and Peloria, but not really anywhere else. It would be really interesting to know which region is the source (I'm assuming Fonritian, as neither deity is mentioned in GROY or the Entekosiad, and Seseine appears in other Pamaltelan myths), and how they came to known. I personally think both have their origins in Vadeli practices, but what is the Pelorian connection? Somehow via the Artmali/Blue Moon connection? Or a God Learner thing? 

Seseine comes from Send Valu.  All that requires for her to appear in Peloria is for Ralzakark to synthesise a universal theory of Chaos (something which has been mooted as a plot in the Hero Wars) based on the theories of his captive God Learners.  I can't see any mention of Ikadz in the Guide although he does turn up as being worshipped by Broos in the Rubble.

[metcalph]

1 hour ago, jrutila said:

I would imagine that "liberating" Fonritians would shake their core religious foundation and face much bigger oppression (against dragons, hmm..).

Fonritans have been liberated before by the God Learners (who even set up a Blue state).  It does not follow that being politicially liberated means that you will junk your doctrines of slavery (which even the majority of slaves see as a Good Thing).  On current Fonritan experience, they would use the freedom to arm themselves to set themselves up as the heart of a new Empire.

[davecake]

1 hour ago, metcalph said:

Seseine comes from Send Valu.  All that requires for her to appear in Peloria is for Ralzakark to synthesise a universal theory of Chaos (something which has been mooted as a plot in the Hero Wars) based on the theories of his captive God Learners.  I can't see any mention of Ikadz in the Guide although he does turn up as being worshipped by Broos in the Rubble.

Yes, the close connection to Ralzakark and his captured God Learners makes that pretty plausible, and I don't recall any other canon mentions of Seseine in Peloria (even the non-canon ones are pretty plausibly linked to Ralzakark and/or God Learners). 

Now, Ikadz appearing in eg Lunar Hell in Sartar: Kingdom of Heroes is a bit harder to explain away, the representation there (and as a known foe of Humakt) makes him seem more integrated into theyalan myth. Perhaps the God Learners brought knowledge of Ikadz to Fonrit, whereupon they all just decided that a torture God was too Awesomely Bad to go past and adopted him wholesale. 

Its also possible that this was a real meeting of minds. The Fonritians had already inherited knowledge of torture magic from the Vadeli, the God Learners filled in the gaps and brought the name Ikadz. 

[davecake]

I find the Hungry Goddess of the Veldang being Krarsht a bit dull, I guess.

i think Krarsht is known in Fonrit (what Krarsht worshipper wouldn't love the place?) but I think that only happened in historical time. Certainly Pamaltelan isn't supposed to be riddled with krarshtkid tunnels like Genertela, and Krarsht mythology only mentions Genertela AFAIK.

And some sort of dark side of the blue moon sounds more fun to me. But YMMV. Certainly the Artmali had their own dalliances with chaos. 

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, davecake said:

First I have heard of Fonritian slavers attacking Seshnela! Where else in Genertela are they likely to attack? 

Anywhere they can approach and depart without much interference, really. Think Barbary pirates in the North Sea, before the USA waged their first extra-continental war.

Slave-hunting is just another form of piracy, and has a long tradition, kept up by whichever culture sailed the seas in armed ships. Island and river dwellers are paticularly in danger of being snatched up in sudden raids. Given the complication of the Ritual of Opening, I see a possibility that the naval crew starts with their rites as soon as the slave hunters have disembarked, ready to take up the returning hunters and any captives upon their return.

4 hours ago, davecake said:

We know very little about pre-Garangordite first age Fonrit (apart from Thinokos).  The rule of Jraktal The Tap implies an exploitative sorcerous rulership, but in practice it sounds as if the conquered Veldang were animists or theists, and relatively peaceful. But we also know little of the Hungry Goddess of the Veldang. 

The Blues were described as peaceful and somewhat broken. There were ruins.

I wonder whether there may have been elephant Fiwan. Having all these variant trunk- and tusk-bearing beasts captured in the wild and forced to work does feel quite appropriate for the Fonritian mind-set, but doesn't feel like something the Veldang would have done.

I wonder whether the Veldang truly were awakened from their Darkness trauma. They certainly suffered from cultural PTSD. This may have had to do with their active use of and allegiance to Chaos in the Gods War. The Veldang and the Vadeli appear to be the only humans siding with Chaos who came out alive out of the Gods War, and neither in good shape in the Dawn Age. Perhaps their Greater Darkness "cultures" interfered with the Awakening.

 

4 hours ago, davecake said:

The section on crafts implies the existence of that classic RPG and fantasy literature institution, the assassins guild.

Rather than a single guild, I would expect rivaling clans with their own secrets.

4 hours ago, davecake said:

I also have always assumed alchemy and perfume making were branches of the same profession, but this section implies they are different - and checking Revealed Mythologies, this is my error, as they have different divine patrons.  

There are numerous "chemical industry" trades appropriate for Glorantha. Perfuming (with a side branch for incense and intoxicating fumes), poisoners/apothecaries, herbalists and distillers, dyers, glassmakers, and metallurgists. All of these have ties to Alchemy/Sorcery - they are knowledge-based industries changing the fabric of the world according to their will.

 

4 hours ago, davecake said:

There appears to be a native Fonritian sorcery tradition. How much this is related to the worship of the Glorious Ones I don't know? I would assume that Fonritian sorcery has some influences from both the God Learners and the ancient Vaseline practices. Some Malkioni influence via Umathela is also likely. 

Umathelan sorcery is God Learner sorcery, or descended thereof.

Any previous exposure would have been Vadeli sorcery.

The God Learners clearly were in control of at least southernmost Fonrit in order to be able to start the Six-Legged Empire in Jolar. The Guide states explicitely that neither Umathelans nor Tarien Doraddi ever reached the remote fringes of the Enkloso forest.

The forest of Vralos was much reduced in that time, though, so the Six-Leggers may not have required river access to the Koraru Bay. I wonder from where they imported their horses - Prax, Safelster, or just the West?

Do we have a date when the Six Legged Empire started? Once the Vralos forest was in decline, it didn't need naval domination, so its earliest efforts may have predated Tanian's Victory.

 

Quote

and the ancient Vaseline practices.

The joys of auto-correct. Is this tied to the Seseine cult?

 

5 hours ago, davecake said:

Deities list - the Hungry Goddess remains little more than a name. I'd love to know more.

I wonder whether this is tied to the deities worshiped by the Pujaleg of Laskal and Banamba. I guess we'll return to this when the Fonrit chapter gets discussed.

The Krarsht identification is one possibility, but it shouldn't be the only one. Maran Gor is a hungry goddess as well, so is the Black Eater, or the Maize deity (note that I don't suggest that maize is grown in Fonrit, but millet has quite a few similarities to maize).

 

5 hours ago, davecake said:

Ikadz and Seseine are both known, explicitly under those names, in both Fonrit and Peloria, but not really anywhere else. It would be really interesting to know which region is the source (I'm assuming Fonritian, as neither deity is mentioned in GROY or the Entekosiad, and Seseine appears in other Pamaltelan myths), and how they came to known. I personally think both have their origins in Vadeli practices, but what is the Pelorian connection? Somehow via the Artmali/Blue Moon connection? Or a God Learner thing? 

The God Learners don't appear to have been concerned that much with the Theyalan hate of Chaos. Ikadz sounds like a perfect tool to break the resistance of the Irensavalists.

Veldang in Peloria are still only a hypothesis. I have seen no proof to the contrary, but neither have I seen (or provided) actual proof.

There are Veldang race people like the Zaranistangi who don't claim descent from Artmal or his tribes. Worship of the tides is found in Kethaela and Maslo as well,

But it doesn't take the Veldang to have blue-skinned people introducing Ikadz and Seseine to Pelanda - the Vadeli might work just as well.

 

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

A Jeff article has suggested that Ompalam is another name for the Invisible God (whether it was the local Vadeli name, I dunno).  But since Slavery is good, dedicating yourself to the Gods is also good which is why Sorcery is not as prominent as in Malkioni lands.  So the root source of Fonritan sorcery is Vadeli with some subsequent copying of the Abiding Book.  Then you would have the Silence and also the more recent Vadeli revelations. 

I thought the Vadeli don't acknowledge the Invisible God mystery of the Logic devolution? While they might be aware of the energy form of Solace, I doubt they name it that way.

The Pamaltelan equivalent is the Creator, Langamul. Who, like Garangordos, is murdered by one of the Seventeen, and who returns in altered form.

The Fonritians have no use for any form of caste system, whether Malkioni or Thinobutu-inspired - their pyramid of slavery does this job remarkably well. This can get problematic, like when Pujaleg shaman-warlords take a seat on top of those pyramids, or when Harrek and his armada replace the Pujaleg, but then the self-centered interests of Fonritian politics means that Afadjann and Kareeshtu don't care much who rules in Laskal, as long as trade and proper suppression are observed.

 

[KeithN]

I assumed the hungry goddess was Krarsht but without the Krarshtkid link. The Cult of Krarsht is essentially a method for Krarshtkids to get fed. Without the Krarshtkids you might still have the Hungry Goddess, but not chopped up into little pieces by Storm Bull in Pamaltela. 

 

[metcalph]

1 minute ago, Joerg said:

Do we have a date when the Six Legged Empire started? Once the Vralos forest was in decline, it didn't need naval domination, so its earliest efforts may have predated Tanian's Victory.

The Six Legged Empire was supplied through Laskal rather than Vralos.  The God Learner presence in Koraru Bay lasted until 1077 ST (Guide p565).  The Kolarmori expedition to Jolar started in the reign of Darangram (858-870) and was anihilated in the reign of Ilotos (901-919) according to the Middle Sea Empire p24 and p26.  Personally I believe the Six Legged Empire just simply stopped sending messengers to the Middle Sea Empire and lasted for a century or two beyond that to make Hon Hoolbitku's struggle more momentous.

 

 

 

[metcalph]

8 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I thought the Vadeli don't acknowledge the Invisible God mystery of the Logic devolution? While they might be aware of the energy form of Solace, I doubt they name it that way.

How else would the Vadeli explain the origin of Glorantha?  The Invisible God created the World.  The name of the Invisible God (Irensavel, Zanbandan, Makan, Demogorgon, Ompalam) and its precise attributes are a matter of dispute among the Malkioni and govern their wider philosophy.  FWIW I don't think all Vadeli believe in Ompalam but that a philosophical school among the southern Vadeli did.

 

8 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The Pamaltelan equivalent is the Creator, Langamul. Who, like Garangordos, is murdered by one of the Seventeen, and who returns in altered form.

I wouldn't fret about correspondances with Garangordos who doesn't come back in an altered form.  A better idea would be Bolongo murdered Langamul who returned in the form of Ompalam.  Which is plausible.  

 

 

[Joerg]

34 minutes ago, metcalph said:

How else would the Vadeli explain the origin of Glorantha?  

Cynically, as a random separation of the Void into Being and Not-Being. With no intrinsic worth other than itself. A set of randomly occurring rules and principles that change and diversify as the universe proceeds to the state where it interacted with the Vadeli.

The only thing that matters to the Vadeli is the continued existence of the self, if possible in comfort and power, with just as much of the universe that is necessary to sustain the self.

34 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The Invisible God created the World.  The name of the Invisible God (Irensavel, Zanbandan, Makan, Demogorgon, Ompalam) and its precise attributes are a matter of dispute among the Malkioni and govern their wider philosophy.  FWIW I don't think all Vadeli believe in Ompalam but that a philosophical school among the southern Vadeli did.

We have only very indirect stories about the Vadeli, and from the most biased sources we can imagine, Zzabur, and countless unwilling subjects.

We know that Pamaltelan humans were enslaved in Chir and Poto, in western Pamaltela, south of Mt. Thakarn. These were quite likely members of the urban civilization that the mortal drinker Agimori developed and spread all over the places not occupied by inimical plant growth but instead by friendly lineage plants, as the Artmali migration had turned east initially.

But then, there may have been other disembarkations from Veldara and other celestial objects in other corners of Pamaltela. We still haven't agreed about the connection between the Fonritian Veldang and Jarkaru's empire.

 

34 minutes ago, metcalph said:

I wouldn't fret about correspondances with Garangordos who doesn't come back in an altered form.  A better idea would be Bolongo murdered Langamul who returned in the form of Ompalam.  Which is plausible.  

Yeah, forget about the Garangordos mention - this transformation through murder by Bolongo was what I wanted to suggest.

What if Vadel was identified with Bolongo, as the instrument creating Ompalam from the Spirit Before?

 

[metcalph]

How the Vadeli might explain the origin of Glorantha.

Quote

Cynically, as a random separation of the Void into Being and Not-Being. With no intrinsic worth other than itself. A set of randomly occurring rules and principles that change and diversify as the universe proceeds to the state where it interacted with the Vadeli.

Since the Vadeli are Malkioni, I think they would accept Malkion's premise that the Invisible God made the world.  The Vadeli might think the invisible god did so meaninglessly because it had no thought and therefore existence is ultimately pointless (I think their philosophy is far more twisted).  But I don't think they would outright repudiate a core tenet of Malkionism.

 

Quote

We have only very indirect stories about the Vadeli, and from the most biased sources we can imagine, Zzabur, and countless unwilling subjects.

The Vadeli are still around and can be asked for their views I think.

 

Quote

What if Vadel was identified with Bolongo, as the instrument creating Ompalam from the Spirit Before?

Vadel is Storm Age while Langamul's murder marks the division between the Green Age and the Golden Age, I think.  Vadel would be better off being the equivalent of Noruma and bring back the real ghost of Langamul/Ompalam and not the false inferior Amuron which the Doraddi believe.  He already has a contest with Bamat which involved spirit combat so he has a motive to find an alternative.

 

Edited July 11, 2017 by metcalph

[Joerg]

20 minutes ago, metcalph said:

How the Vadeli might explain the origin of Glorantha.

Since the Vadeli are Malkioni, I think they would accept Malkion's premise that the Invisible God made the world.

Zzabur claims that the Vadeli are a Malkioni offshoot in the Danmalastan mythic cycle of Malkionism. The Brithos mythic cycle which names gods as ancestors has the Vadeli as autochthonous population of Brithos when Malkion Aerlitsson arrives and creates the Castes through his marriages and sons. (There are two quite distinct origin tales of the Malkioni, and both are true. The Brithos mythic cycle is that related e.g. by the Waertagi, and it integrates the gods with their names known in the west with their origin. Those names were used as the "False Gods" in the old Prosopaedia, and they turn out to coincide with the names of the Ralian pantheon, also referred to by Bertalor in his unabridged essay on the metals of the gods.)

The Vadeli are clearly tied to the history of the Brithos-descended Malkioni of Fronela and Seshnela. They inhabited roughly the same place, or rather a southern region of the same place.

The Brithini don't refer to the Creator as the Invisible God. Given all this Makan/Malkioneran/Irensaval stuff, I sometimes wonder whether the (mortal) Malkioni do.

20 minutes ago, metcalph said:

 The Vadeli might think the invisible god did so meaninglessly because it had no thought and therefore existence is ultimately pointless (I think their philosophy is far more twisted).  But I don't think they would outright repudiate a core tenet of Malkionism.

That's if they were sharing the same ancestry as the other five tribes in the Danmalastan myths.

20 minutes ago, metcalph said:

The Vadeli are still around and can be asked for their views I think.

Sure. And the same single Vadeli will tell you different things every time you interview him or her. Would you trust any Vadeli to tell you the truth?

 

20 minutes ago, metcalph said:

Vadel is Storm Age

Nope? In the Danmalastan myth, Vadel passes back and forth between Bamatela and Danmalastan without having to cross a single sea, and likewise, at the same time, the Kachasti into Gennerela. Given that both Neliom and Sshorg first enter directly after Umath's birth, with Sshorga reaching Dara Happa at the height of the Golden Age, Vadel was clearly around in the Golden Age. By the Storm Age, Vadel served as writing material/literature. His offspring squared off with the Zzabur-led tribes of Danmalastan, leading to fun interaction like the annihilation of the Tadeniti (who were presumably instrumental in transforming their ancestor into a blue book) and the eruption of the Nidan Mountains.

In the Brithos myth, the children of Vadela were already present there when Malkion Aerlitsson (by necessity a product of the Storm Age) arrived in Brithos and founded the Castes.

Anyway, the activities of Vadel in Bamatela - imprisonment of a Big Spirit - bear some similarity to the murder of Langamul.

 

Back to Fonrit, the Chir and Poto slave coast myths clearly are Storm Time, and affect both Doraddi and Artmali.

20 minutes ago, metcalph said:

while Langamul's murder marks the division between the Green Age and the Golden Age, I think.  Vadel would be better off being the equivalent of Noruma and bring back the real ghost of Langamul/Ompalam and not the false inferior Amuron which the Doraddi believe.  He already has a contest with Bamat which involved spirit combat so he has a motive to find an alternative.

Sure, Vadel is the Sorcerer Supreme, at least some of the more unpleasant aspects thereof. (The more pleasant aspect Zzabur laying claim to the Shattering of the World and the Implosion of the Spike...)

Noruma is the supreme magician in the Pamaltelan (non-Fiwan, non-Thinobutan) myths.

 

To me the "Vadeli Legacy" stating that all Fonrit was conquered in the Fonritian culture section (p.46) came a bit as a surprise. From Missing Lands (p.87) I associated the Vadeli conquests with Umathela (1585 ST) rather than Afadjann and Kareeshtu, both of which have been portrayed as an unbroken rule of the Janns, who aided the Vadeli in their conquest of Kareeshtu 1587 ST as allies rather than as conquered vassals. While this alliance may have established Vadeli enclaves in Afadjann port cities, there doesn't seem to have been a conquest here, or further south around the Koraru Bay.

 

Jraktal the Tap is explained much later in the Guide. Garangordos is credited with breaking Jraktal's shackles, usually on Ompalam, but at least once the shackles are on Fonrit as a whole. (Another point in favor for my theory of a PTSD or even Darkness Survival Mode status of the Blues for the entire Dawn Age.)

 

I am a bit perplexed about the Fonritian languages, being mutually unintelligible though related. Are they in any way related to the dialects of the Doraddi of the Veldt (such as Arbennan or Tarint) or Thinobutos? To the Vadeli language (as inheritance of Fonrit having been Chir)? Especially since one logical source of difference, the language of the Blues, is preserved only in traces in backwoods Mondoro.

Fonrit had a lot less time to develop divergent languages from their heavily mixed population than e.g. the Doraddi of the Veldt. Is there something like the development of Jamaican Patois going on here, a language similar enough to the masters but strongly divergent, then taking off as the former masters (e.g. Jrusteli, Vadeli) had gone? Or are there influences from former Fiwan who had been assimilated into the slave states without much ado?

 

[Akhôrahil]

In Sweden, a "masarin" is a kind of sugar-glazed baked good. This makes reading the Fonrit section hilarious at times.

[Akhôrahil]

So who is Tentacule? What does a High Slavery God do that's not already covered by the other slavery-related deties?

[Akhôrahil]

And what kind of attitude towards tapping should we imagine that Fonritian sorcerors have? On the one hand, their view of the world as resolving around mastery and slavery would seem to indicate no restraints, but would their enmity towards Jraktal the Tap color their impressions about what is allowed? This has to be an important question - the matter of tapping is a big deal in the West, after all.

[metcalph]

13 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

So who is Tentacule? What does a High Slavery God do that's not already covered by the other slavery-related deties?

High-X is Gregspeak for a mystical or primal practice of X.  So the worshipper of Tentacule is a slave to God for the same reason that a Hrestoli has mastered All (There's some overlap between my interpretation and the Wool Cloaks and it may be that the two are the same).

The true slaves among them are all-powerful in that they act as instruments of Ompalam (they might claim to have caused the Closing and the Sun Stop because Ompalam willed it) but at the same time, they cannout act contrary to Ompalam.

[metcalph]

13 hours ago, Akhôrahil said:

And what kind of attitude towards tapping should we imagine that Fonritian sorcerors have? On the one hand, their view of the world as resolving around mastery and slavery would seem to indicate no restraints, but would their enmity towards Jraktal the Tap color their impressions about what is allowed? This has to be an important question - the matter of tapping is a big deal in the West, after all.

Perhaps prohibitions against Tapping exist but the rulers turn a blind eye to their sorcerors tapping for the most part.  It is only when a sorceror threatens to overthrow them that the rulers call down the traditional curses upon a worshipper of Jraktral.  Or some places could do it once a year with any sorceror  to keep them in check.

[metcalph]

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

Zzabur claims that the Vadeli are a Malkioni offshoot in the Danmalastan mythic cycle of Malkionism.

No.  The Vadeli are descended from the Viymorni (who apparently lived in Kumanku according to the Middle Sea Empire).  It doesn't have anything do with what Zzabur says but is a matter or record.  

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Brithos mythic cycle which names gods as ancestors has the Vadeli as autochthonous population of Brithos when Malkion Aerlitsson arrives and creates the Castes through his marriages and sons.

You should take care that you are quoting from a section of Revealed Mythologies that is quite old and outdated (and isn't called anything like the Brithos mythic cycle).  It's not canon and was included primarily for the geographical detail.

 

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

The Brithini don't refer to the Creator as the Invisible God. Given all this Makan/Malkioneran/Irensaval stuff, I sometimes wonder whether the (mortal) Malkioni do.

In Revealed Mythologies, Greg does not spell out the relationship between the Invisible God, Makan, Irensavel  etc as he's more interested in describing the names for the successive manifestations of the invisible god.  Nevertheless they are all the Invisible God and the Brithini do believe the Invisible God created the world.  For example, the Guide p408

Quote

The Brithini enclave of Arolanit is a
stronghold of ancient Brithini atheism. The
Invisible God is universally acknowledged
there as Creator. No other worship is allowed,
even by visiting outsiders.

And the Guide p53

Quote

Zzabur is responsible
for shaping the essentials of Western
thought and determining the way in
which Malkion and the Invisible God were
originally understood. All Malkioni schools
of wizardry are ultimately derived from
Zzabur’s philosophy.

 

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

Nope? In the Danmalastan myth, Vadel passes back and forth between Bamatela and Danmalastan without having to cross a single sea,

That's rather weak evidence to assert Vadel's actions were Golden Age.  Vadel's sea crossing antics may have been omitted because they were not important to the myth.

 

14 hours ago, Joerg said:

Anyway, the activities of Vadel in Bamatela - imprisonment of a Big Spirit - bear some similarity to the murder of Langamul.

You'll have to be a bit more detailed than that.  Langamul's murder comes when Bolongo is named at the end of the Naming.  Vadel is not part of a group being named when he fights Bamat.  I'm not seeing the similarity claimed.