Guide to Glorantha Group Read Week 10 - Northern Fronela

[David Scott]

Northern Fronela section discussion here!

Don't forget Colin Driver's epic maps and the artwork.

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6694-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-10/

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6695-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-10-deep-discussion/

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6663-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-10-errors/

[Joerg]

Rathorela during the Ban: Were only the Rathori asleep, or did their hibernation fall onto the other Hsunchen and the 100 k Vronkali?

[Psullie]

On 8/29/2017 at 5:48 PM, Joerg said:

Rathorela during the Ban: Were only the Rathori asleep, or did their hibernation fall onto the other Hsunchen and the 100 k Vronkali?

I'm guessing that of all the Hsunchen spirits in Fronela only bears hibernate, though badgers slow down quite a bit, then they were the only ones to sleep. I imagine they were quite cranky when they woke :-)

Also, page 233 suggests that the Rathori are the only non-Aldryami users of the longbow in Glorantha! Surprised I'm only seeing this now.

 

[Joerg]

8 minutes ago, Psullie said:

I'm guessing that of all the Hsunchen spirits in Fronela only bears hibernate, though badgers slow down quite a bit, then they were the only ones to sleep. I imagine they were quite cranky when they woke :-)

The descriptions give quite different impressions.

p.202

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Many of the political entities thrived. Those which were self-sufficient throve best, such as Loskalm, the Rathori, and the Jonatings. 

The Rathori hhibernated during the Ban, avoiding losses or development. If the other Hsunchen and the Aldryami had the forests for themselves. If the forests and plants kept growing, any awakening Rathori would have to face Sleeping Beauty-like thickets of vegetation. There would be no way to get the impression that: (p.202)

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In 1594, the first wave of Rathori (Bear People) awoke, not knowing that years had passed. They went raiding with their neighboring elves, were astonished to see what their world had become overnight, and aborted their raids to hold council and assess the situation. 

This indicates that their own lands didn't end up overgrown.

Instead, Harrek noted that the planets had changed their positions drastically. (p.229)

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was among the First Wakeup in 1594. When he saw that the planets were wrong he began wandering

I suppose the most significant changes would have affected Lokarnos and Entekos, if the Awakening date was roughly the anniversary of the date when they went to sleep.

p.231 offers the suspicion that it was the anniversary of the day they went to sleep:

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Most Bear People slept through the entire Ban, thinking it but a single night. Most of them woke up in 1594, 1607, and 1618.

Most, not all. I wonder whether those who didn't sleep through the Ban multiplied like crazy while the rest stayed in hibernation, given the sudden surplus of resources (except for salmons?)? Were the non-sleepers devotees of the White Bear? If so, did Harrek slaying and binding the White Bear affect their ability to remain awake?

All of this could have happened at once if Rathorela during the Ban was some kind of Hero Plane. And if this goes for Rathorela, why not for the rest of Fronela?

But then, the Glowline is some sort of border for an alternate reality, too.

 

8 minutes ago, Psullie said:

Also, page 233 suggests that the Rathori are the only non-Aldryami users of the longbow in Glorantha! Surprised I'm only seeing this now.

This detail was already in Genertela Box and accompanied the longbow discussions for the 1993/4 project RuneQuest - Adventures in Glorantha. It was hard to miss back then if you cared about archery in RQ.

[Psullie]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

This detail was already in Genertela Box and accompanied the longbow discussions for the 1993/4 project RuneQuest - Adventures in Glorantha. It was hard to miss back then if you cared about archery in RQ.

Do you mean the Crucible of the Hero Wars box for RQ3 - I don't recall that being said apart from listing the Longbow as their cultural weapon. As for AiG Dragonewts were given longbows p. 187. 

[Brian McReynolds]

22 hours ago, Joerg said:

Most, not all. I wonder whether those who didn't sleep through the Ban multiplied like crazy while the rest stayed in hibernation, given the sudden surplus of resources (except for salmons?)? Were the non-sleepers devotees of the White Bear? If so, did Harrek slaying and binding the White Bear affect their ability to remain awake?

Another possibility might be that Rathor slept through the Ban as well. (No evidence for this that I know of, but if his people weren't worshipping him through rituals and religious ceremonies, surely this would weaken him in some way.)  With their Ancestral Spirit slumbering, they may have been incapable of having children who were Rathori, as their offspring may have had no Bear-spirit within them. This could have led to a dying out of the remaining, awake Rathori, leaving people who were not Rathori, but something 'else'. The 'Not-Rathori' could have become one of the strange groups of people who 'appeared' when the Ban started to lift across Fronela.

Without their ancestral ways to guide them through every-day life, their communities may have been riven with kin-strife and other anti-social problems/chaotic acts, which could have ripped their society apart. What came out the other side may have no resemblance to the Rathori culture that they originated from. Those crazy bastards from The Kingdom of War must have come from somewhere! It's possible that some of them may be descended from the 'awake Rathori', who are now something else entirely. Just a thought! :-)

[davecake]

Lalja Vainemule is a bit too obvious a reference to the great Finnish culture hero Väinämöinen for my tastes (or Vainemune in Estonia), also a great shaman and a magical singer. Also, by making him an Uncoling, it kind of confuses the ethnic Finns and the indigenous Sami (who are far more associated with reindeer), which I think might be quite problematic. 

 

[davecake]

Anyone know anything more about the Neechen? 

[davecake]

The rolling lead centipedes of Oral-Ta have always reminded of these M.C. Escher creatures

[davecake]

Is the Rathorelan Blue Bear related to the Tibetan blue bear, the Alaskan blue bear AKA glacier bear, or some different gloranthan species, perhaps one that is actually blue? 

[jajagappa]

Odds and ends of thoughts on Northern Fronela:

• We've known some parts of this for a long time - e.g. Harrek and the White Bear Empire, the Glacier - so mostly focusing here on what caught my eye.
• Fral Angor - if he fought Black Hralf the Weasel, then he lived in the days of Snodal and remembers Rathorela from well before the Ban.  What's his role in Rathorela?
• Courtwood Forest - ruled by the Elf King: "He is a mercurial figure, sometimes very friendly and generous, but sometimes very cruel and malicious" - makes me think of Thranduil.
• Finho - "Gold was recently discovered in the hills" - expect Yukon Cornelius to show up here, ready to fight the Abominable Snowman.
• Tastolar - "The highlands of the region, from whence the Third Eye Blue people first came, are still cut off by the Ban." - wonder if anything new emerges here, or what has become of the Third Eye Blue folk? Or was this area cursed by the dwarves and left as a dangerous ruin guarded by dwarven constructs?
• Hsunchen - "a shamanic priesthood called variously the Snake Masters, Cowled Vipers, High Ones, Great Lords, Holy Ones, and so on." - seems like the return of one of these shaman-priests could mark the start of a Fronelan Campaign.
• Uncolings - "famed for their powerful shamans, who are a match for the wizards of Loskalm" - these must be able to draw on a range of powerful spirits and magics.  Perhaps their quests upon the Spirit Plane even connect up to Gods War events interacting with the 'nodes' of the wizards?
• Liked seeing the range of Hsunchen here, even though many of the tribes are small. 
• "Lotara, the great raccoon spirit, was once a lover of Trickster, which may explain his children’s propensities." - Wonder if this spirit connects with the Raccoon Guardian of Tusunimmi Ford or Mister Raccoon (not to mention Tunoral the Raccoon God of the Vanchites)?
• "the Hogari and their mammoths are not related to the more numerous mastodons familiar to the inhabitants of northern Fronela" - tells us that there aren't many mammoths, but are a fair number of mastodons in northern Fronela.  What other Ice Age animals may still exist here?

[Joerg]

6 hours ago, jajagappa said:

Odds and ends of thoughts on Northern Fronela:

• We've known some parts of this for a long time - e.g. Harrek and the White Bear Empire, the Glacier - so mostly focusing here on what caught my eye.

Actually, a lot information about the White Bear Empire was presented here in much clearer form and more detail than before.

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• Fral Angor - if he fought Black Hralf the Weasel, then he lived in the days of Snodal and remembers Rathorela from well before the Ban.  What's his role in Rathorela?

With all Rathori characters: when did he awaken? Was he present when Harrek killed the Polar Bear god, or did he emerge later?

Black Hralf was put to rest in the 16 years between Snodal's return from Altinela and the Syndics' Ban.

Fighting Black Hralf doesn't necessarily mean fighting the White Bear Empire - it could have been a battle or duel for leadership (or mating or salmon rights). Black Hralf appears to have remained "in power" when he was finally killed by Snodal, Arthen and Svenlos. Fral Angor "wasn't killed", which is equally high praise as Argrath not being killed when facing off Harrek.

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• Courtwood Forest - ruled by the Elf King: "He is a mercurial figure, sometimes very friendly and generous, but sometimes very cruel and malicious" - makes me think of Thranduil.

Or the classical Sidhe type elf lord, or Oberon.

On the whole, the elf king sounds almost like a devotee of Orlanth.

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• Tastolar - "The highlands of the region, from whence the Third Eye Blue people first came, are still cut off by the Ban." - wonder if anything new emerges here, or what has become of the Third Eye Blue folk? Or was this area cursed by the dwarves and left as a dangerous ruin guarded by dwarven constructs?

The dwarfen curse of the theft of iron may have been the cause of the Kingdom of War (and violent death). After all, Iron is the Death Metal (cue electric guitar solo). Dwarf magic may have caused the bearers of the secret of iron to become the harbingers of war.

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• Hsunchen - "a shamanic priesthood called variously the Snake Masters, Cowled Vipers, High Ones, Great Lords, Holy Ones, and so on." - seems like the return of one of these shaman-priests could mark the start of a Fronelan Campaign.

The Ralian non-Enerali/non-Pendali were similarly ruled by a coven of shamans of the Serpent Brotherhood. This appears to be the Hykimi equivalent to the Korgatsu dragon of the Shan Shan or the horned Serpent of the Pamaltelan Fiwan. As mentioned before, the Hykimi appear to be the least pure of the Hsunchen (unless you count Kralorela as the transformation of the Dragon Hsunchen - to be discussed today or tomorrow).

 

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• Uncolings - "famed for their powerful shamans, who are a match for the wizards of Loskalm" - these must be able to draw on a range of powerful spirits and magics.  Perhaps their quests upon the Spirit Plane even connect up to Gods War events interacting with the 'nodes' of the wizards?

This appears to be a nod to the magical prowess ascribed to the magicians of the Finns (the Norse word for the Sami) in the Nordic Sagas (and in the Kalevala). They would have been a source of magical power for the White Bear empire, whose magicians might be more of a physical presence reaching into or through the spirit world rather than shamans acting in long range rituals and powerful curses. I have no idea about the magical renown of the other fenno-ugric reindeer herders of the eastern linguistic branch (related to the Magyars rather than to Finns, Eesti, Sami and Permiacs), but they might have similar rites.

Having experienced Lappland (at least coastal Lappland) in winter, I am inclined to give them some polar light related spirit powers especially powerful in the cold of winter. The Gloranthan sky has a weak polar light equivalent showing up in winter only, usually hiding in the upper rim of the Underworld sky beneath the waves, except for the deep of winter when the sky tilts the farthest south. I think that analogous to the Soul Wind the Praxian shamans summon in Nomad Gods, the Uncoling shamans may call Polar Lights forth to wander over the Glacier to the summoner.

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• Liked seeing the range of Hsunchen here, even though many of the tribes are small. Modern Lappland has 

Given the ecology of the region they inhabit, they (especially the Uncolings) are ridiculously large. According to Wikipedia, there are currently about 2800 Sami engaged in reindeer herding, an estimated 10% of the total population. Even if you take into account that the coastal sami of Halogaland had been assimilated into the Norse population by the 16th century through taxation, christianisation and enforced use of the Norse language, that is less than 10% of the Uncoling population, and might have been double that before Kväner and Norse chipped away at their livelihoods. Compare the area roamed by the reindeer herds and herders. Scandinavia (as defined by combining Denmark, Norway and Sweden) has over 300,000 square miles, and if you exchange the southern, Norse inhabited lands for northern Finnland, Kola and Karelia, the range of the Sami peoples will have been similar.

There is only one way the Uncolings can cope with their much much smaller range even in post-Ban Fronela - most of the 300,000 humans must spend most of their lives in animal shape. I would wager that your average Uncoling herd will be half animal-shaped human, half pure beast. No idea about cross-breeding, though - the Porent meetings might be the human rut season parallel to the reindeer rut, keeping the blood largely apart.

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• "Lotara, the great raccoon spirit, was once a lover of Trickster, which may explain his children’s propensities." - Wonder if this spirit connects with the Raccoon Guardian of Tusunimmi Ford or Mister Raccoon (not to mention Tunoral the Raccoon God of the Vanchites)?

Mister Raccoon sounds like the best candidate for this, although the Sunset Isles are quite a bit of way from Fronela. Unless coastal islands of Fronela are designated such.

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• "the Hogari and their mammoths are not related to the more numerous mastodons familiar to the inhabitants of northern Fronela" - tells us that there aren't many mammoths, but are a fair number of mastodons in northern Fronela.  What other Ice Age animals may still exist here?

Woolly rhinos. No cave bears, or we would have Rathori equivalents. Bison. No animal predators other than bears and wolverines - out-competed by Hykimi hunter-gatherers and trolls.

Edited September 4, 2017 by Joerg
harbingers, damnit...

[jajagappa]

8 minutes ago, Joerg said:

The dwarfen curse of the theft of iron may have been the cause of the Kingdom of War (and violent death). After all, Iron is the Death Metal (cue electric guitar solo). Dwarf magic may have caused the bearers of the secret of iron to become the harbringers of war.

Kind of like the curse of the Rheingold but this is the Curse of the Janube Iron!  Perfect Nidan plot to get the humans to kill and destroy each other (and maybe some elves while they're at it).  Once Fronela is a post-apocalyptic wasteland, the dwarfs can continue the next phase in rebuilding the Maker's World there.

[jajagappa]

13 minutes ago, Joerg said:

I am inclined to give them some polar light related spirit powers especially powerful in the cold of winter. The Gloranthan sky has a weak polar light equivalent showing up in winter only, usually hiding in the upper rim of the Underworld sky beneath the waves, except for the deep of winter when the sky tilts the farthest south. I think that analogous to the Soul Wind the Praxian shamans summon in Nomad Gods, the Uncoling shamans may call Polar Lights forth to wander over the Glacier to the summoner.

Yes, I like that idea.  Wonder if such Polar Lights are slaves to the Winter King, or like Yelmalio able to resist the Glacier?  I'm inclined towards the latter.

15 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Mister Raccoon sounds like the best candidate for this

Would make sense.  If that is the case, they may be searching for clues to the whereabouts of both Mister Raccoon and Doctor Rock to restore them to their right places.

18 minutes ago, Joerg said:

Woolly rhinos. No cave bears, or we would have Rathori equivalents. Bison.

Both woolly rhinos and northern bison make sense.  Agree with no cave bears.  Might be a good area for giant beaver, though they wouldn't have any Hsunchen support.

[davecake]

Very insightful stuff, Joerg. I love the idea that the Uncolings survive only by mostly spending most of their time in reindeer shape. Maybe they do this every winter, then recover their human forms, and human clothes, every summer? Does this even apply to children, who are not initiated?

Could any possible Polar Light magic be connected at all to Altinela? 

There definitely seems to be a very consistent theme of the greatest Hsunchen shamans are serpent/dragon people (Hykim or Korgatsu), who represent a unifying over culture for the Hsunchen (and this extends to the Doraddi, who presumably learnt many of their greatest shamanic secrets from the Fiwan). Human non-hsunchen mostly perceive this as the Horned Man instead (and the doraddi see both the serpent and the horns). 

Wooly rhinos, mastodons, mammoths - According to Anaxials Roster, mammoths are god creatures, created by Valind, and Mastodons are spirit creatures, created by Valind, and the Elephant wars their part of the general god time Animal wars between god animals and spirit animals. But the Guide seems to reverse this, and the Mammoths are the spirit creatures, and the Mastodons presumably the creatures of Valind. The wooly rhinos (kunkorn) are also god-creatures created by Vadrus. 

It is possible that there could be bears that are not represented among the Rathori, if they were god bears. But we haven't heard anything about them, and the Rathori would likely war on them, so still probably not. 

Are the Neechen perhaps a human Valind worshipping culture?

[Joerg]

2 hours ago, davecake said:

Very insightful stuff, Joerg. I love the idea that the Uncolings survive only by mostly spending most of their time in reindeer shape. Maybe they do this every winter, then recover their human forms, and human clothes, every summer?

The question is whether it is summer or winter when they change their shapes. Winter offers additional nutrition through cadavers of beasts succumbing to the cold, so spending this time in the omnivore shape might be better. Another time when it might be wise to take human shape is after shedding the antlers.

2 hours ago, davecake said:

Does this even apply to children, who are not initiated?

Depends on how they are born. If they are born to beast shape mothers, they may well undergo the changes to human shape only for the times when a human shape is more advantageous. I suggested mating season for the time to wear the human shape in order to keep human and beast matings to a minimum (no more than among other Hsunchen).

 

2 hours ago, davecake said:

Could any possible Polar Light magic be connected at all to Altinela? 

No reason why not. It isn't clear whether the Altinelan guardians against invading Chaos have any elemental association at all.

2 hours ago, davecake said:

There definitely seems to be a very consistent theme of the greatest Hsunchen shamans are serpent/dragon people (Hykim or Korgatsu), who represent a unifying over culture for the Hsunchen (and this extends to the Doraddi, who presumably learnt many of their greatest shamanic secrets from the Fiwan). Human non-hsunchen mostly perceive this as the Horned Man instead (and the doraddi see both the serpent and the horns). 

The Serpent theme is also a tie to the Earth. The "civilized Hsunchen" (Pendali, Enerali, probably also Enjoreli) worshipped the land goddess, and trace their ancestry to her.

 

2 hours ago, davecake said:

Wooly rhinos, mastodons, mammoths - According to Anaxials Roster, mammoths are god creatures, created by Valind, and Mastodons are spirit creatures, created by Valind, and the Elephant wars their part of the general god time Animal wars between god animals and spirit animals. But the Guide seems to reverse this, and the Mammoths are the spirit creatures, and the Mastodons presumably the creatures of Valind. The wooly rhinos (kunkorn) are also god-creatures created by Vadrus. 

Other than saying that these beasts aren't Hsunchen spirit beasts, I wouldn't want to walk this "separate worlds" dogma too far.

The spirit beasts hunted by the Grotaron were called a sort of Mammoths, too.

2 hours ago, davecake said:

It is possible that there could be bears that are not represented among the Rathori, if they were god bears. But we haven't heard anything about them, and the Rathori would likely war on them, so still probably not. 

The Rathori do cover all bears except the Teshnan sun bear, but there has always been a Pelorian and Theyalan bear god in addition to the Rathori spirits.

I am not quite sure what to make out of the Jonatings. Jonat himself was a bear worshiper and a storm worshiper, but if you look at the Orlanthi of Fronela, all you get is cattle i Enjorela, and then some cattle towards Charg and Brolia. Jonatela follows previous polities like the Hykimi Alliance (outside of the great woods north of the Danube) or Golaros.

The Hykimi heritage of these people will be similarly Theyalanized as in Ralios, perhaps even without some identity outlet like the Ancient Beasts Society.

2 hours ago, davecake said:

Are the Neechen perhaps a human Valind worshipping culture?

Possibly the Hrimthurs?

The name reminds me remotely of the Nenets reindeer people of Siberia, distant cousins of both the Sami and the Hungarians.

All we know about the Neechen is that they are nomadic. Given the conditions they live in, they have hardly anything to gather, so they might be hunters or pastoralists. If pastoralists, they need some herd beasts that can survive under these conditions. Mammoths, reindeer and musk oxen are taken up by other peoples. Mastodons probably stick to the taiga rather than the turndra directly adjacent to the glacier.

What else is there to hunt and eat? Birds come for the insects, but either are active only in summer. Lemmings are there for the taking. Hunting these doesn't quite encourage a nomadic lifestyle, though.

Saiga antelopes might be a possibility as signature beasts.

[davecake]

The art notes for the picture of Harrek and Gunda 

http://www.glorantha.com/harrek-the-berserk-and-gunda-the-guiltyanother-lovely-picture-by-mike-perry/

And google= post

https://plus.google.com/108191783232173529938/posts/cdojaJYnXkJ

The hilarious part about this picture is that Gunda's look is deliberately not based on anything historical, but quite deliberately based on early 20th century childrens book illustrations and Wagnerian opera costumes!