Guide to Glorantha Group Read Week 10 - Deep Discussion

[David Scott]

This is the Deep Discussion thread for Week 10 - Feel free to speculate, move away from the Guide section under discussion and into other related areas.

https://basicroleplaying.org/topic/6694-guide-to-glorantha-group-read-week-10/

 

[Joerg]

Harrek’s timeline appears to be somewhat erratic.

Sometime between 1594 and 1607 Harrek roams Jonatela, which still is under the Ban.

1607 he slays the Red Emperor in the service of the Satrap of Darjin, Feathered Eye Woman.

1609 he slays Rathor and binds him into his skin, worn ever since.

1612 he roams around the Kingdom of War.

1615 he leads an army to plunder Sog City.

1616 he leads the fleet of Wolf Pirates against the Holy Country.

1617 he is on Ygg’s Isles, becomes champion of Ygg and leads half the population south, plundering Arolanit and Seshnela, making a short trip to Jrustela (leaving behind some of the Yggites at Ginorth and Gothalos?), and takes up residence at Three Step Isles.

1621 he starts his circumnavigation just in time to take Garrath Sharpsword and his gang over from the Giant’s Cradle.

By 1624 he has plundered Teshnos, Teleos, Yanchi, Fonrit and Curustus, has left Hunralki in Pithdaros and joins Broyan for the battle of Pennel Ford, then going on to plunder the remnants of the City of Wonders.

1628 he fights Argrath in the Rightarm Isles, then goes on to plunder Muse Roost. At some point he plunders Boldhome and becomes persona non grata.

1631 he returns to Banamba, adding his own element of destruction to the Chaos Wars between Afadjann and the free Veldang.

Some time after Muse Roost he meets Jar-eel in the Battle of Heroes. 1628, before the sacking of Boldhome?

 

 

I wonder whether all the dates are that well considered, or whether the 1616 raid wasn't checked against his Fronelan dates.

[scott-martin]

35 minutes ago, Joerg said:

1607 he slays the Red Emperor in the service of the Satrap of Darjin, Feathered Eye Woman.

I've never been clear on how he came to imperial attention or was delivered into the Dart Wars without heroquest-level resources. In theory someone waking up in 1594 could build a reputation north of the Janube for a few years and then follow the Thaw downriver to hop one of the new ships or take the completely audacious overland route -- IF they knew where they were going and had a strong reason to go there. The only other mundane alternative would be hanging out until 1599 when the Sweet Sea passage theoretically opens up. It would have been expensive in any scenario.

Presumably there were Lunar agents / slave "recruiters" in the area that early to recognize his unusual "talent" and his early saga is intricately wound up in the Thaw. But how did they get there? Relics of the Arrolian era? I hope they were well rewarded, at least initially.

And then coming home to bind the Bear would have been almost as difficult. While it's tempting to think he personally triggered the 1607 wake-up on the way back in, I bet there's a story there too.

Edited August 29, 2017 by scott-martin

[Joerg]

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

I've never been clear on how he came to imperial attention or was delivered into the Dart Wars without heroquest-level resources.

Apparently Harrek wandered through the separated parts of Fronela as if the Ban happened to someone else. There is no way he could have entered Jonatela from Rathorela before 1616, yet he was active there before he even went to the Empire.

Looking at the map of the Thaw, I think that it doesn't conform to the text in a number of places. Stomble looks as if it opened to Loskalm rather than Jonatela. The Thaw towards Congern's kingdom may be hard to map, but if Stomble was annexed before Okarnia emerged to the rest of Fronela in 1616, the 1616 thaw line should be outside of Stomble. The Thaw of Akem around Sog City contradicts the Thaw date given in the Sog City description.

Tracing Harrek's journey through the Ban is pretty hard, given the vaguness of that map.

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

In theory someone waking up in 1594 could build a reputation north of the Janube for a few years and then follow the Thaw downriver to hop one of the new ships or take the completely audacious overland route -- IF they knew where they were going and had a strong reason to go there. The only other mundane alternative would be hanging out until 1599 when the Sweet Sea passage theoretically opens up. It would have been expensive in any scenario.

There is no way he could have entered Jonatela, unless Timms is all that he visited.

If Harrek emerged in the Arrolian territories out of the mist at the borders, he would have stood out as heroquester extraordinaire. Note that it is the satrap of Darjin, homeland of the moon boats, which hires Harrek.

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

Presumably there were Lunar agents / slave "recruiters" in the area that early to recognize his unusual "talent" and his early saga is intricately wound up in the Thaw. But how did they get there? Relics of the Arrolian era? I hope they were well rewarded, at least initially.

Moon boats, into the Arrolian territories. At some point, Harrek grew restless in Jonatela, despite its internal thawing and opportunities for plunder and heroism, and ended up somewhere where moon boats traveled.

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

And then coming home to bind the Bear would have been almost as difficult. While it's tempting to think he personally triggered the 1607 wake-up on the way back in, I bet there's a story there too.

The irregularities of the Jonatelan thaw might well be a result of Harrek's presence, too.

 

[metcalph]

2 hours ago, Joerg said:

 

I wonder whether all the dates are that well considered, or whether the 1616 raid wasn't checked against his Fronelan dates.

I don't see what the problem is.  In Tales #10, he's reported as joining the wolf pirates outside Seshnela.  Ergo Harrek took a ship south from Sog where it was boarded by the Wolf Pirates.  He joins them to sail to Three Steps.  There he raids the Holy Country.  Then seeking more information about the Wolf Pirates, he sails to Ygg in 1617.  There is virtually no problem here.

[metcalph]

Harrek wakes in the westernmost portion of Rathorela in 1594.  He can reach the Sun Dome Temple and the Greenfields as they have thawed the previous year.

Immediately there's a big question: what has the Greenfields thawed to?  The lands surrounding them are all enclosed by the Ban for at least another year.  My best guess is that the Eastpointers reached it with   Moonboats in an effort to reach Riverjoin and other places (repeating the success of the Legion of Infants).

The use of Moonboats for transportation would also explain why Harrek was hired by the Satraps of Darjiin as they are the only ones who still know how to make them.

The newly emerging Kingdom of Jonatela is a problem as the King of Jonatela doesn't emerge from the Ban in 1610 by which time Harrek has already killed the Red Emperor and skinned the White Bear.  

However if we use the Moonboat hypothesis then Harrek could have reached Western Jonatela which is part of the kingdom now and may have considered itself to be the Kingdom of Jonatela until Congern came along.  At some point, Harrek is kidnapped and forced to fight as a gladiator (becoz it makes for a better story than simply being hired as one) in the Lunar Empire.  

[jajagappa]

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

At some point, Harrek is kidnapped and forced to fight as a gladiator (becoz it makes for a better story than simply being hired as one) in the Lunar Empire.

And another reason to Hate the Lunar Empire.  But did the Red Goddess know what she was creating/unleashing upon Glorantha???

[Joerg]

4 hours ago, metcalph said:

However if we use the Moonboat hypothesis then Harrek could have reached Western Jonatela which is part of the kingdom now and may have considered itself to be the Kingdom of Jonatela until Congern came along.  At some point, Harrek is kidnapped and forced to fight as a gladiator (becoz it makes for a better story than simply being hired as one) in the Lunar Empire.  

Harrek being kidnapped would be contra-indicative to him killing the designated target rather than simply annihilating his kidnappers when he comes to.

IMO he would have to have been ensnared and outwitted with generous doses of sex, drugs and release of mindless violence, perhaps like the legendary hashishimi. (Repeated sets of several dozens virgins worth violating would be reckoned acceptable maintenance cost for a heroquester like Harrek...) Promises of magical power to be taught and raided would keep Harrek in the game for a while, but I guess when he killed Ignifer without getting significant magical power or secrets from this he rage-quit and stomped back to Fronela. ("If killing their emperor remains an empty victory, there isn't anyone in this bloody empire worth the effort." or something like this.)

 

[Stew Stansfield]

Re: Yellow Bear:

There's a fun set of Greg's stories about the Hrestoli knight Sir Beobard and his adventures with/against the likes of the Yellow Bear, the Serpent King and his paladins (including the grey dwarf Bool), the Blue Moon of Hell, etc.

It finishes on the acest cliffhanger, where Beobard's just about to head off against the Pumpkin Corps...

Sadly, I lent my copy to Loz years ago, when he was writing the Mongoose stuff, so can't check it.

Edited August 30, 2017 by Quackatoa

[Joerg]

Ok, back to Croesia, the moon goddess, where a small portion of the moon fell to earth in the Gods War, in Croesium. Croesium lies in inland Pomons, so there won't be any obvious worship of the tides. What was her connection to Varganthar? Were there any Veldang coming here?

I wonder that the name persisted, and wasn't changed to Annilla. There must have been God Learners researching this deity.

The Dara Happans place the fall of the Blue Moon in the War of the Many Suns, in the reign of Lukarius, after the flood receded, and before the Glacier swallowed up the lands of the north. Lukarius either shot her down with his bow (still strung with his umbilical?) or justiced it down, or Vadrus and other storm gods played ball with it, or...

We don't get an Artmali perspective on the fall of the Blue Moon, or how that fits into their empires, or whether it affected them at all, given the continued presence of the Blue Streak. How much identity of Velhara and the Mernitan Sedenya was there?

With the Blue Moon Plateau and Croesium we get two crash sites of the Blue Moon. There are bound to be others.

 

Another strange entity is the Light Lady of Ramona, an immortal spirit dispensing wisdom. Sounds pretty much like the wife of Lhankor Mhy.

[M Helsdon]

On ‎8‎/‎29‎/‎2017 at 5:53 PM, Joerg said:

Harrek’s timeline appears to be somewhat erratic.

Sometime between 1594 and 1607 Harrek roams Jonatela, which still is under the Ban.

1607 he slays the Red Emperor in the service of the Satrap of Darjin, Feathered Eye Woman.

1609 he slays Rathor and binds him into his skin, worn ever since.

1612 he roams around the Kingdom of War.

1615 he leads an army to plunder Sog City.

1616 he leads the fleet of Wolf Pirates against the Holy Country.

1617 he is on Ygg’s Isles, becomes champion of Ygg and leads half the population south, plundering Arolanit and Seshnela, making a short trip to Jrustela (leaving behind some of the Yggites at Ginorth and Gothalos?), and takes up residence at Three Step Isles.

1621 he starts his circumnavigation just in time to take Garrath Sharpsword and his gang over from the Giant’s Cradle.

By 1624 he has plundered Teshnos, Teleos, Yanchi, Fonrit and Curustus, has left Hunralki in Pithdaros and joins Broyan for the battle of Pennel Ford, then going on to plunder the remnants of the City of Wonders.

1628 he fights Argrath in the Rightarm Isles, then goes on to plunder Muse Roost. At some point he plunders Boldhome and becomes persona non grata.

1631 he returns to Banamba, adding his own element of destruction to the Chaos Wars between Afadjann and the free Veldang.

My attempt to define Harrek's itinerary:

Harrek was a Rathori Hsunchen, born in 1484. By the age of seven he committed his first murder. Harrek was initiated early, aged twelve.

Like all the Bear-People, Harrek went to sleep in 1499. He was among the First Wakeup in 1594 as the Syndic’s Ban gradually evaporated. When he saw that the planets were wrong he began wandering. For a time, he was a mercenary in Timms, the first portion of Old Jonatela to be released from the Ban in 1597.

Noted for his potential, he was taken to the Lunar Empire to participate in the Dart Competitions. In 1607 he was unleashed by the Wylua-oor clan, the rulers of the satrapy of Darjiin, upon their rivals in the Yanoriao-ilart clan, which unintentionally resulted in the death of a Mask of the Red Emperor at the city of Mephos.

Leaving the empire, filled with revulsion for its decadence, Harrek returned to Rathorela. He interfered with the annual sacrifice to Rathor in 1609, slaying the White Bear god and binding him within his skin, killing the outraged tribesmen who protested. Alone, he left Rathorela.

By accident, he opposed some of the first raiding parties coming out of the Kingdom of War in 1612. Harrek became the general of an army of barbarians and mercenaries and led it to plunder Sog City in 1615.

Sailing from Loskalm with his loot, the ship he was abroad was intercepted by Wolf Pirates. Harrek killed enough of them to be offered terms, whereupon he took over the captaincy of their vessel. He led them in raids of the coasts of Kethaela in 1616, contributing to the trials suffered by the Holy Country that year.

By 1617, Harrek was in Ygg’s Islands. Despite all the odds, the piratical god Ygg chose him as champion and awarded him gifts. Harrek, in his great ship the Ice Serpent, led half the population from the barren islands. They called themselves Ygg's People of the War Bear.

Harrek and his pirates plundered the coasts of Arolanit, Seshnela and Kethaela. They then set off southwards, led by Vadeli guides, to find and pillage Jrustela. Instead of the rich cities they expected, they found a wild archipelago. Harrek threw the Vadeli to the merman who demanded human sacrifice to let the fleet go, and then he sailed back to raid Nolos and Pasos. Many other pirate ships joined them, and Harrek accepted them if they obeyed the rules of his fleet.

After several years, the pirates settled on the Three Step Islands, raiding and terrorizing the coasts of the Solkathi and Rozgali Seas. In 1621, Harrek met Argrath of Sartar at sea, sailing upon a giant wooden cradle. Together they circumnavigated the Inner Seas. Sailing eastwards, they plundered Teshnos, launching an assault on Dombain and installing a young queen there. Next, they arrived in Teleos and quickly plunged that land into confusion and war. Harrek captured and enslaved the powerful Emerald Frog, the Eater of Souls.

The next year, Harrek the Berserk and his Wolf Pirates reached Pamaltela, and descended in force upon Laskal, defeating the Bat People, ridding the Forest of Disease of its malevolent goddess, and gaining the submission of the local Sea Gods. Harrek established his claim to the throne of Laskal.

In 1623, Harrek and his Wolf Pirates sailed again to Jrustela, raising part of the isle and uncovering ancient God Learner temples preserved by powerful sorcery. Sailing north, late in the same year, they raided the coasts of Seshnela. Early in 1624, the Wolf Pirate fleet appeared in the Choralinthor Bay. Harrek’s second-in-command, Argrath, agreed to aid High King Broyan against the Lunar Empire. An army led by King Broyan, including the Warm Earth Alliance, and the Wolf Pirates, defeated the Lunars at the Battle of Pennel. Harrek’s price for his aid was to plunder the City of Wonder.

For the next few years, with civil war in Tarsh and nomad invasions in the north, the Lunar Empire was expelled from Dragon Pass. Harrek returned to the seas, raiding and pillaging, returning to aid Argrath in 1628, when the empire finally counterattacked. Outside the city of Bagnot, Harrek and Jar-eel confronted each other for the first time, and Argrath defeated the Lunars in the Battle of Heroes. Harrek then marched against Black Horse County, whose lord had fought against Argrath years earlier. Harrek and his men devastated it, and plundered great treasures from its bottomless basement. Harrek’s best friend Gunda was killed, throwing him into a black mood. When Harrek stopped at Boldhome to show off his plunder, he got into an argument with Argrath, and when Harrek was insulted his men sacked Boldhome. The Wolf Pirates sacked Wilmskirk in 1630 before heading south to re-join their fleet. In 1631, Harrek led his Wolf Pirates fleet back to Laskal.

He would return under the banner of the Flame Dragon…

Edited September 15, 2017 by M Helsdon

[7Tigers]

From my side, I've never liked Harrek: I've always considered him more as a psychopath murderer than a hero...

[M Helsdon]

15 hours ago, 7Tigers said:

From my side, I've never liked Harrek: I've always considered him more as a psychopath murderer than a hero...

Most Heroes are...

[Revilo Divad Of Dyoll]

4 hours ago, 7Tigers said:

From my side, I've never liked Harrek: I've always considered him more as a psychopath murderer than a hero...

One of the more interesting ideas from an interview with Sandy Petersen is that there was one superhero in all of time who embodied each rune.  Harrek is death/destruction/conflict.