Shaman spells, spirit combat

[GianniVacca]

The new BRPS book doesn't provide anything. Has anybody come up with any great ideas?

[Newt]

The MRQ SRD shys away from Shamans as well.

For SimpleQuest, I did very quick Shaman and Spirit Combat sections, based off old RQ2/RQ3.

Being a Shaman gives you the ability to

• Disassociate from Body
  
• See into Spirit World
  
• Assess harmony of the Spirit World
  
• Knowledge of the Spirit World
  

In addition Shaman’s commonly learn the following Battle magic spells; Drive out Spirit, Spirit Shield and Summon spirit.

Spirit combat again is based off the old RQ2/RQ3 with the added bonus that Spirits with POW greater than 20 do an additional D6 per 10 POW over 20. Its also explicit in the rules that if a Shaman beats a spirit they can automatically bind the spirit.

These rules are on p62 & 63 of the SQ Zero edition that can be found here D101 Games - SimpleQuest

[GianniVacca]

These rules are on p62 & 63 of the SQ Zero edition that can be found here D101 Games - SimpleQuest

My... I had downloaded your ruleset but hadn't read that far (shame on me). Did you playtest that part extensively?

[Newt]

Alas no.

I plan at some stage before the final game comes out to do a High Powered Characters Game, which will have a Shaman in the party (along with A Magus and Priest and heavily magically arm and armoured warriors).

At the moment though I'm crossing my fingers that its practically paraphrased from earlier editions that worked, that there will be no major hiccups.

[NickMiddleton]

The new BRPS book doesn't provide anything.

Err, page 114? And pages 342-343 (Ghost write up).

Has anybody come up with any great ideas?

Can't see any issue with using RQIII Shamanism (other than my long standing gripes with that system) with BRP, provided one fine tunes the BRP options to suit. Likewise with the RQII version. Not tried building anything specifically from what's in BRP but the basics are there (pardon the pun).

Cheers,

Nick

[GianniVacca]

Err, page 114? And pages 342-343 (Ghost write up).

Thanks for pointing those out, but they don't really constitute fully-fledged shamanism rules (how to become a shaman, fetches, bound spirits, allied spirits...)

[NickMiddleton]

Thanks for pointing those out, but they don't really constitute fully-fledged shamanism rules (how to become a shaman, fetches, bound spirits, allied spirits...)

yeah, I realised after I posted that I'd got rather fixated on the "spirit combat" bit... oops!

Cheers,

Nick

[TRose]

Sandy Petersen had some rules written up for Shaman , besides his sorcery rules.

I went looking for them but could not find a working link so maybe some one else can help.

[NickMiddleton]

Sandy Petersen had some rules written up for Shaman , besides his sorcery rules.

I went looking for them but could not find a working link so maybe some one else can help.

Hmm that's weird - his Sorcery rules are all over the shop, but the Shaman stuff mostly 404's...

Found these at the Stabbing Cat - https://www.msu.edu/user/moulinfr/spirit.html

https://www.msu.edu/user/moulinfr/Votanki.html

Ah Ha Found 'em:

Philip Hibbs' Link Page

All safe and sound on Phil Hibb's site...

Cheers,

Nick

[Harvey Walters]

Hmm that's weird - his Sorcery rules are all over the shop, but the Shaman stuff mostly 404's...

Found these at the Stabbing Cat - https://www.msu.edu/user/moulinfr/spirit.html

https://www.msu.edu/user/moulinfr/Votanki.html

Ah Ha Found 'em:

Philip Hibbs' Link Page

All safe and sound on Phil Hibb's site...

Cheers,

Nick

Speaking of Sandy's rules, has anyone got a copy of his heroquesting rules? I've heard mention of them a few times, but never found them online.

Michael

[GianniVacca]

I was looking for shamanism rules specifically written with the new version of the BRP System in mind- Sandy's rules do not qualify

[soltakss]

The problem with Shamanism is that everyone has their own ideas and opinions of what constitutes Shamanism.

At one level, Shamanism is like HeroQuest's Common Magic - spells that everyone has access to in a culture.

However, it is more like the interaction between people and the spirits that are found everywhere. How you placate spirits, how to make them work for you, how to gain powers from them, how to worship them.

Shamanism is not just about shamans. It is about all the people of the shaman's culture.

But, Shamanism is also about shamans and what they can do.

If you list the powers of a Shaman then you can model them by using the rules for Powers. You need new Powers, though. Shamans could well use Astral Projection but what about controlling spirits? What about Spirit Quests, Healing, Curses, Blessing and so on.

It gets very complicated.

[RosenMcStern]

Yet it was very simple in RQ2/3 - admittedly simpler in 2, but still manageable in 3. So it can be written down in a comprehensible way rules-wise, because it has been done before. Explaining what shamanism is in society can be more complicate, as Simon pointed out.

[GianniVacca]

Yet it was very simple in RQ2/3 - admittedly simpler in 2, but still manageable in 3. So it can be written down in a comprehensible way rules-wise, because it has been done before.

So how would you describe RQ2 shamanism using the rules in the new BRP book?

Explaining what shamanism is in society can be more complicate, as Simon pointed out.

This is actually the part I'm less scared of, since I've done it before.

[Nightshade]

Well, honestly, I'm not seeing a whole lot in the new BRP that would prevent you from porting over shamanism from RQ2 or 3 as-is (I don't think it'd be a particularly good idea because I think there were some serious problems with both, but I don't see anything that would prevent it). One thing that _will_ be an issue is that unless you also port battle/spirit magic, much of what they do is irrelevant.

[RMS]

Well, honestly, I'm not seeing a whole lot in the new BRP that would prevent you from porting over shamanism from RQ2 or 3 as-is (I don't think it'd be a particularly good idea because I think there were some serious problems with both, but I don't see anything that would prevent it). One thing that _will_ be an issue is that unless you also port battle/spirit magic, much of what they do is irrelevant.

Having played a shaman in a campaign for a while, I think that without the magic systems a shaman can be very interesting and extremely powerful.* You do need to port or create the various spirits that a shaman has access to over, but with those spirits alone a shaman can be very nasty. However, it does definitely take away a shaman's ability to cast things in battle...but if there aren't any physical skill limitations your shaman can hold his own in battle and then play with spirits in the hours before or after.

* The only exception would be the obvious need for spells or skills (via old SB for example) to allow summoning, binding, and enchanting.

[Nightshade]

The problem is it takes a long time for a shaman to get a big enough fetch to contain most spirits, so unless the campaign permits a really large amount of downtime (which I gather from a post in another thread yours did) it can be problematic actually bringing the spirits to bear on whatever problem you're addressing.

[SDLeary]

The problem is it takes a long time for a shaman to get a big enough fetch to contain most spirits, so unless the campaign permits a really large amount of downtime (which I gather from a post in another thread yours did) it can be problematic actually bringing the spirits to bear on whatever problem you're addressing.

This assumes of course that you need a fetch, or that the spirits need to be bound to it. Why not bound to charms and fetishes? Tattoos? The RQ concept of the fetch or helper spirit as container for all things spiritual need not be the only one (and I've always seen it as a particularly Gloranthan thing). Binding could also simply create a link to the spirit, having them appear from the aether when "summoned to do bidding".

That brings up another point. Did anyone else ever find the concept of an INT spirit or a Spell sprit, or any of the other non-ghosty type spirits a bit mechanical?

SDLeary

Edited October 13, 2008 by SDLeary

[Nightshade]

This assumes of course that you need a fetch, or that the spirits need to be bound to it. Why not bound to charms and fetishes? Tattoos? The RQ concept of the fetch or helper spirit as container for all things spiritual need not be the only one (and I've always seen it as a particularly Gloranthan thing). Binding could also simply create a link to the spirit, having them appear from the aether when "summoned to do bidding".

Since I was refering to the RQ2/3 shamen specifically, yeah it did make that assumption.

That brings up another point. Did anyone else ever find the concept of an INT spirit or a Spell sprit, or any of the other non-ghosty type spirits a bit mechanical?

SDLeary

To a degree, but then, so were the things in the magic system they were designed to interact with.

[RMS]

The problem is it takes a long time for a shaman to get a big enough fetch to contain most spirits, so unless the campaign permits a really large amount of downtime (which I gather from a post in another thread yours did) it can be problematic actually bringing the spirits to bear on whatever problem you're addressing.

We have reasonable downtime - one or two adventures (long multi-sessions each) per game year in general, but there are seasons between adventures generally.

However, that's not what made the shaman so powerful. What really did it was the ability to contact and negotiate with friendly spirits to do things for him: spirits that are beyond his ability to bind or command with any confidence of success, but that aren't hostile to his goals...such as ancestor spirits or spirits wanting something in exchange (some sort of worship/sacrifice). Those are things that only a shaman can do and they can be extremely powerful in game play. You can port over the entire concept of ancestor worship without dealing with any of the specific spells and end up at about the same point.

If everyone else has magic, per default RQ, then the shaman really needs it to be on par, but if magic is scarce I'd think a shaman would be perfectly fine with only his ability to discorporate and wander the spirit world.

Also, SDLeary is correct in that even the held/forced spirits are generally much more due to building binding enchantment and holding the spirit there rather than in the fetch. Holding spirits in the fetch isn't particularly economical in my experience. Those MP as a battery are too important than to be tied up holding various spirits. Plus, many of our best adventures have been gathering rare/special items from which to construction the binding items, so it's been a dual win situation.

Edited October 13, 2008 by RMS

[Nightshade]

We have reasonable downtime - one or two adventures (long multi-sessions each) per game year in general, but there are seasons between adventures generally.

Just as a note, I suspect even among RQ players you'd find a three month chunk of downtime exceeds what the vast majority of them provide, so I think I'll stick to the term "large amounts".

However, that's not what made the shaman so powerful. What really did it was the ability to contact and negotiate with friendly spirits to do things for him: spirits that are beyond his ability to bind or command with any

But its of a piece; that all takes time, and its time that often simply isn't available. That was rather my point; this is only helpful if there's usually time to find and apply the spirits you need to the job, and where the kinds of problems you have permit that sort of time.

Also, SDLeary is correct in that even the held/forced spirits are generally much more due to building binding enchantment and holding the spirit there rather than in the fetch. Holding spirits in the fetch isn't particularly economical in my experience. Those MP as a battery are too important than

It isn't, but if you're pulling a shaman out of the context it was created in, it would likely become more important for two reasons: 1. You might not have anything else to do with the magic points and 2. You might not have any other way to do it.

[RMS]

But its of a piece; that all takes time, and its time that often simply isn't available. That was rather my point; this is only helpful if there's usually time to find and apply the spirits you need to the job, and where the kinds of problems you have permit that sort of time.

Just to be clear, this isn't done during "downtime" but is typically done as part of an adventure. We decide to stop for the evening and the shaman spends time chanting, etc. in front of the fire and heading off into the spirit world to hopefully find some help for an immediate problem: chasing off the wolves moving in towards the camp, negotiating to coordinate an attack on an enemy in the morning, allow us past the point he guards, etc. I don't see how any of this is in any way unusual. In fact, it's exactly what a shaman is supposed to be about, if we're using history/fiction as a guide as to what shamans do. They really aren't about whiz-bang magic in any context I've ever seen them show up in.

It isn't, but if you're pulling a shaman out of the context it was created in, it would likely become more important for two reasons: 1. You might not have anything else to do with the magic points and 2. You might not have any other way to do it.

If you aren't casting spells, you don't need the battery of the fetch quite as much, but you still need the fetch's MP for defense so the trade-off just moves a bit.

[Nightshade]

Just to be clear, this isn't done during "downtime" but is typically done as part of an adventure. We decide to stop for the evening and the shaman spends time chanting, etc. in front of the fire and heading off into the spirit world to hopefully find some help for an immediate problem: chasing off the wolves moving in towards the camp, negotiating to coordinate an attack on an enemy in the morning, allow us past the point he guards, etc. I don't see how any of this is in any way unusual. In fact, it's exactly what a shaman is supposed to be about, if we're using history/fiction as a guide as to what shamans do. They really aren't about whiz-bang magic in any context I've ever seen them show up in.

The problem is that the time taken isn't kind, especially for newish shamen; it can take days to find the kind of spirit you're looking for by the book (since its basically an hourly random encounter roll you only have a limited influence over), and you can end up running into a lot of things you don't want to find (and may not be up to dealing with) in the mean time.

Now if you were using a different approach to how you found such things than RQ3, that's a different story, but I'm trying to keep my comments to the material I'm familiar with, not other approaches I'm not qualified to assess.

If you aren't casting spells, you don't need the battery of the fetch quite as much, but you still need the fetch's MP for defense so the trade-off just moves a bit.

If you don't have other sources for spirit protection, you're probably right, but a shaman in an environment where spellcasting isn't common isn't any more at risk than anyone else otherwise.

[soltakss]

The trouble with shamans in RQ2 and RQ3 is that they didn't really work that well.

• The Spirit Plane was ultra-generic and didn't vary according to where you were
  
• Shamans could only access very generic and bland spirits
  
• Special or cult spirits were hard to find
  
• With the exception of some Zola Fel spirits there were no Spirit Traditions written up
  
• Shamans weren't really given an edge in spirit combat
  
• Shamans were virtually untouchable magically very quickly
  
• Shamans didn't have many options for binding/controlling spirits (bind into fetch or bind into enchantment)
  
• A powerful shaman was about as dangerous as a weak shaman - powerful shamans took theoretically longer to break down but in practice both types were untouchable in spirit combat
  
• Fetches were treated as virtually another type of allied spirit
  
• There were no Spirit Guides
  
• Other shamanic powers, with the exception of laying on hands and self-resurrection, were not used
  

So, if I wanted to create shamanic rules for BRP then I wouldn't necessarily start from RQ2 or RQ3. Instead I'd start from first principles. I'd list what powers and abilities a shaman should have, how a shaman interacts with his people, how shamanic worship should work, how shamanic people deal with their surroundings and so on. Then I'd work out simple game mechanics to model/mimic those.

[RMS]

The problem is that the time taken isn't kind, especially for newish shamen; it can take days to find the kind of spirit you're looking for by the book (since its basically an hourly random encounter roll you only have a limited influence over), and you can end up running into a lot of things you don't want to find (and may not be up to dealing with) in the mean time.

Now if you were using a different approach to how you found such things than RQ3, that's a different story, but I'm trying to keep my comments to the material I'm familiar with, not other approaches I'm not qualified to assess.

Ah. I took the table to be a generic random encounters table, not something to be used every time the shaman entered the spirit realm. I tied spirits to locales just like other encounters in the parallel material world, so a shaman with sufficient experience would know roughly where to find certain (individual) spirits: the spirit of the old dryad is always at the same grove of oaks, the spirit of the river is accessible anywhere in the river but more likely at certain locations, etc. Most of this is driven by luck rolls, if nothing else.

However, I'd argue that this is exactly how RQ3 was intended to be run (though I won't argue the point). I don't believe any of the tables in the game were ever intended to be used as gospel, but were there as guides for when you needed something quickly and didn't have the details figured out ahead of time...a lot like you never used the random encounter tables in the old DMG to run everything...just when you literally wanted a random encounter. The same is true of the fumble tables, the professions tables (which at least had to be pruned and crafted for each individual world), the weapons tables (not everything available just because it's in the table), etc.