Same Round Death is Harsh!

[Narl]

I am a longtime BRP player and I'm looking forward to RuneQuest in Glorantha! I've been taking a look at of some of the differences from BGB combat to RuneQuest and noted one rule that seems overly harsh:

"When an adventurer has taken enough damage to reduce their total hit points to 0 or less, then the adventurer dies at the end of the current melee round unless healed or otherwise brought to positive hit points." RuneQuest p. 146

The BGB has the following rule:

"If your fatally-wounded character receives medical attention (through First Aid, Medicine, a power, an item, or some other means of hit point restoration) in the round he or she received the fatal wound or the round immediately after, and his or her hit points are brought up to 1 or more, your character has almost died, but will survive that particular injury." BGB p. 209

With RuneQuest requiring declarations at the start of the round, it seems very unlikely anyone is going to be brought to positive hit points in the same round they take a wound.

The BGB rule has created quite a few exciting and desperate situations the round after a wound. The potential for instant death in RuneQuest is still there with triple hit location wounds, but going to zero total hit points is an accumulation of smaller wounds that doesn't seem to me to make for a better game.

Any thoughts on this? Or good reasons for characters dying in the same round they go to zero?

[simonh]

Arguably the BGB supports modern and future era games in which advanced first aid techniques are available and might save a character that’s right on the edge of death compared to Bronze Age first aid. But then again RQ has powerful magical healing spells that are even more miraculous.

I agree with your assessment, allowing an extra round to save a dying character creates dramatic rescue situations that are fun to play and GM, and I can’t really see any down sides to it. That’s the way I’d go.

Simon Hibbs

[soltakss]

We houseruled that an Adventurer going to 0 HP died in CON SR afterwards, so Healing and First Aid could be performed in that time period. So, it gave a round and a bot for most people. We also made sure everyone had healing salves and at least heal 2, so we could slap a bit of healing on.

[styopa]

(shrug) RQ is deadly.  Always has been.

Easy enough to houserule that 0 or lower is unconscious, and that they're losing d6 hp at the end of each round, dead at -1/2 CON or something.

[Narl]

16 minutes ago, styopa said:

RQ is deadly.  Always has been.

The rule as written though is sort of pointless. No way are you going to get healed by the end of the round you take the wound because everyone has already declared their actions. It should either be instant death or death at the end of the next round.

[Atgxtg]

3 hours ago, Narl said:

The rule as written though is sort of pointless. No way are you going to get healed by the end of the round you take the wound because everyone has already declared their actions. It should either be instant death or death at the end of the next round.

There used to be a rule in RQ2 and RQ3 where you could change your action in the round. You took a 5SR (RQ2) or 3SR (RQ3) penalty, but this usually gave you more than enough time to switch to a heal. In RQ2, with DEX SR 3 and a 5 SR penalty,  you can get a Heal 4 off on SR 12. 

[simonh]

2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

There used to be a rule in RQ2 and RQ3 where you could change your action in the round. You took a 5SR (RQ2) or 3SR (RQ3) penalty, but this usually gave you more than enough time to switch to a heal. In RQ2, with DEX SR 3 and a 5 SR penalty,  you can get a Heal 4 off on SR 12. 

So you could cast the spell in 11 strike ranks. If anyone took a killing blow after SR1, theres not enough time to help them.

You might be able to get a Rune spell of a bit quicker but I agree with Narl.

[Atgxtg]

3 hours ago, simonh said:

So you could cast the spell in 11 strike ranks. If anyone took a killing blow after SR1, theres not enough time to help them.

You might be able to get a Rune spell of a bit quicker but I agree with Narl.

No, because it not 11 SR later, it's on SR 12.  The count doesn't start on the SR you change your mind. 

For example, lets say someone got hit and dropped down to -2 HP on SR 6 by a spear. You were going to do something on SR 7, but change your statement. So you'd act on you DEX SR plus 5 for the change, plus whatever the point value of the spell. If you had DEX SR 3, you could do a Heal 3 on SR 11 (3+5+3) and bring your friend back to positive hit points. 

 

BTW this also means that if caught off guard you might have time to get a quick spell off or fire a missile weapon before being attacked in melee.

 

[Narl]

4 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

For example, lets say someone got hit and dropped down to -2 HP on SR 6 by a spear. You were going to do something on SR 7, but change your statement. So you'd act on you DEX SR plus 5 for the change, plus whatever the point value of the spell. If you had DEX SR 3, you could do a Heal 3 on SR 11 (3+5+3) and bring your friend back to positive hit points.

I may have missed it, but I don't see anything about changing statements in the new rules. Even the option was there, it makes no sense that if you go to zero later in the round (past SR 7), you die sooner and with less chance for anyone to act to help.

The rule as written would play out like this:

PLAYER: That hit put me below zero!

GAMEMASTER: Well, you aren't dead yet. You have until the end of the round.

PLAYERS: What can we do then?

GAMEMASTER: Absolutely nothing. Death at the end of the round is inevitable and this rule exists only to prolong your suffering! :-)

I really think the rule should be revised. The game is already so deadly I think there should at least be some opportunity for next round healing. Plus, it turns a "Well, guess I am dead" situation into a crisis where all the adventurers work to save their fallen ally. A regular occurrence in my BRP games and much better gaming in my opinion!

[Atgxtg]

14 minutes ago, Narl said:

I may have missed it, but I don't see anything about changing statements in the new rules.

Ah.

14 minutes ago, Narl said:

Even the option was there, it makes no sense that if you go to zero later in the round (past SR 7), you die sooner and with less chance for anyone to act to help.

Good point, epseically if they have the SR12 called shot rule. 

14 minutes ago, Narl said:

I really think the rule should be revised. The game is already so deadly I think there should at least be some opportunity for next round healing. Plus, it turns a "Well, guess I am dead" situation into a crisis where all the adventurers work to save their fallen ally. A regular occurrence in my BRP games and much better gaming in my opinion!

Yeah, either they need a way to heal you in the one round you got, or something. I could see something like it takes time for the soul to leave the body and the victim loses 1 magic point per round. When they are out, then they are dead. Maybe massive damage has you lose MPS quicker? Just a thought.

[simonh]

18 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

I could see something like it takes time for the soul to leave the body and the victim loses 1 magic point per round. When they are out, then they are dead. Maybe massive damage has you lose MPS quicker? Just a thought.

Interesting idea, but I don’t think recently deceased ghosts should be significantly weakened like that. I’d want them to be pumped up and mad as hell.

[Atgxtg]

9 minutes ago, simonh said:

Interesting idea, but I don’t think recently deceased ghosts should be significantly weakened like that. I’d want them to be pumped up and mad as hell.

Okay how about the soul sticks around for one round per point of POW? No loss, just a time limit. 

Edited June 10, 2018 by Atgxtg

[simonh]

39 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Okay how about the soul sticks around for one round per point of POW? No loss, just a time limit. 

Sounds good, but that many rounds is forever in a combat. I don’t think I’ve ever gained out a fight much longer than ten combat rounds, and the average is significantly less than that.

[Atgxtg]

Me too. To be honest we just ran with 0 HP is dead. That is until RQ 3 came out and gave something like 10 MR, depending on where you looked. I do think Narl has a point. RQ combat is especially deadly, and probably should be a little more forgiving. In real life instant kills are pretty rare, and multiple injuries don't really add together to kill you quite the way they do in RQ. I mean someone who's had a leg severed isn't going to die if they take a 1 point arm hit. Yeah the guy might bleed out a little quicker, but most fatalities take a little time to kill ya. So I could see doing something to make things a little easier.What I could see is the time being dependent upon how badly damaged the soon to be deceased is. Maybe subtract 1 round per point of "excess" damage? 

 

Or maybe a Spirit Magic Spell that could restore the recently deceased to their body. 

[Joerg]

19 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

There used to be a rule in RQ2 and RQ3 where you could change your action in the round. You took a 5SR (RQ2) or 3SR (RQ3) penalty, but this usually gave you more than enough time to switch to a heal. In RQ2, with DEX SR 3 and a 5 SR penalty,  you can get a Heal 4 off on SR 12. 

What if the lethal wound is dealt on a later SR? Does the potential Healer have to reserve the magic support action to the end of the round and stay out of offensive action?

There are hits which are instantly deadly, but the exact nature of hit points is muddy. Decapitation or full body mutilation (like being trod on by a dinosaur) shouldn't really qualify for a healing attempt, but other wounds where internal bleeding or just open arteries contribute to the dying may allow a slightly more operaic death moment with a chance for intervention (fellow characters' or divine).

It would be possible to rule a damage to do immediately full shock damage, but to have the permanent damage creep up only slowly. And last action berserking (like Boromir's death scene) could benefit from such a rule, too.

[PhilHibbs]

7 hours ago, simonh said:

8 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Okay how about the soul sticks around for one round per point of POW? No loss, just a time limit. 

Sounds good, but that many rounds is forever in a combat. I don’t think I’ve ever gained out a fight much longer than ten combat rounds, and the average is significantly less than that.

1 SR per POW would do the trick. That's more than an extra MR for plenty of characters, hardly any would not survive long enough for a Heal Wound on SR1 of the next round.

Edited June 10, 2018 by PhilHibbs

[Atgxtg]

How common is Heal Wound in RQG.?Not every group had in in RQ2 or RQ3. I was thinking of providing enough time to get to the body and cast a high powered Heal. 

[simonh]

Heal Wound is Common rune magic, so pretty much any theist character with at least one Rune Point can cast it.

[soltakss]

37 minutes ago, simonh said:

Heal Wound is Common rune magic, so pretty much any theist character with at least one Rune Point can cast it.

And because Initiates no longer have just one-use Rune Magic, it is easy for any cultists to cast. It makes Heal reserved for those occasions where everyone is out of Rune Points, though, or for those few Adventurers who don't belong to a cult.

[Joerg]

12 hours ago, soltakss said:

And because Initiates no longer have just one-use Rune Magic, it is easy for any cultists to cast. It makes Heal reserved for those occasions where everyone is out of Rune Points, though, or for those few Adventurers who don't belong to a cult.

Does it? If a Heal (e.g. Heal 4) does the trick, why spend a rune point and às many or even more HP?

1 MP per strike rank, for any kind of magic - after all you could boost spells to go through Countermagic. That way the Heal Wound had no strike rank advantage over spirit magic Heal, for "last strike rank" saves you would need "Heal Body".

[Briquelet]

I like the rule. As someone who has lost countless RQ characters over the years, I advise you to think twice before engaging in combat. 🙂

[PhilHibbs]

5 hours ago, Joerg said:

Does it? If a Heal (e.g. Heal 4) does the trick, why spend a rune point and às many or even more HP?

Well clearly if you have time to ready and cast Heal 4, then you would not need to cast Heal Wound. But we are talking about when a character dies, so if you don't have time, because the character will be dead by then, you need to dig in to those Rune Points.

[Joerg]

58 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

Well clearly if you have time to ready and cast Heal 4, then you would not need to cast Heal Wound. But we are talking about when a character dies, so if you don't have time, because the character will be dead by then, you need to dig in to those Rune Points.

Heal Wound heals as many hit points, as you put magic points into the spell - and each magic point takes one strike rank to cast, regardless whether for spirit magic, divine rune magic, or sorcery. So where is the advantage, beyond the unlimited amount of MP you can put into that spell? Only Heal Body is cast on the spell strike rank. All of these healing spells are instantaneous, on the spell strike rank plus the magic points used. All of these spells are touch, too, if I remember correctly, so it involves some additional delay of a strike rank or three to get to the fallen comrade. Same round aid is only possible if your supporter has one healing spell prepared and uses the action "I will rush to the worst wounded of my comrades and heal him", then choosing not to for each round the comrades survive unscathed. Even better is an allied spirit performing this service.

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Joerg said:

Heal Wound heals as many hit points, as you put magic points into the spell - and each magic point takes one strike rank to cast, regardless whether for spirit magic, divine rune magic, or sorcery.

The rules say "Rune magic spells always take effect at strike rank 1." Seems pretty clear to me. Always is always, even with boosted spells. The "1 SR per MP" rule is specifically stated under Spirit Magic and Sorcery, but it is not mentioned in Rune Magic.

Edited June 11, 2018 by PhilHibbs

[styopa]

8 hours ago, Briquelet said:

I like the rule. As someone who has lost countless RQ characters over the years, I advise you to think twice before engaging in combat. 🙂

Or, have a Chalana Arroy person withholding action, then they can do whatever they like when someone drops.

It's kind of their raison d'etre.

Edited June 11, 2018 by styopa