Hide, wicker and wooden shields.

[Tupper]

Wooden shields are more expensive than wicker shields, which in turn are more expensive than hide shields.  However, I couldn't find any mechanical difference between (say) a medium wooden shield and a medium hide shield.  Is there any advantage (in RQG) to paying the extra for a wooden shield?

[styopa]

16 minutes ago, Tupper said:

Wooden shields are more expensive than wicker shields, which in turn are more expensive than hide shields.  However, I couldn't find any mechanical difference between (say) a medium wooden shield and a medium hide shield.  Is there any advantage (in RQG) to paying the extra for a wooden shield?

Makes a better sled ... ?

[soltakss]

No real advantage.

A lot of these things are cultural. If you are an Agimori warrior, you might use a wicker shield, because that's what they use. Wood is scarce and used for other things, but thin branches that can be woven together is cheap. If you are an Aldryami, then you could just grow a wooden shield or enough supple branches to weave a wicker shield. 

[StephenMcG]

Might be a cultural thing but there are very few starting characters that will use three times as much economic resource for the same game effect...  🙂 Players are very goal oriented, especially in the character creation element of the game (including the shopping phase...).

As few NPCs will be shopping it seems odd to include the three types unless they think the GM is going to severely restrict the availability of the cheaper types under certain circumstances.

Stephen

[PhilHibbs]

15 minutes ago, StephenMcG said:

Might be a cultural thing but there are very few starting characters that will use three times as much economic resource for the same game effect...  🙂 Players are very goal oriented, especially in the character creation element of the game (including the shopping phase...).

All your friends are going to laugh an point at you with your hide shield, showing off their smart wooden ones. Do you really want to be the Adidas guy when all the cool kids are in their Off-Whites?

[StephenMcG]

If only that were true, NPCs might point and laugh, their friends will be asking them why they wasted their clacks on the most expensive shield...

[PhilHibbs]

11 minutes ago, StephenMcG said:

If only that were true, NPCs might point and laugh, their friends will be asking them why they wasted their clacks on the most expensive shield...

I think the serious answer is, it's a cultural thing. More primitive cultures have cheaper shields and less money. More advanced cultures have more expensive shields and more money. Sure you can be from a wealthy culture and have a cheap crappy looking shield, and the only consequences will be roleplaying ones, not game mechanical. Except that you might find it hard to get your damaged shield repaired.

[styopa]

On 6/12/2018 at 9:36 PM, Tupper said:

Wooden shields are more expensive than wicker shields, which in turn are more expensive than hide shields.  However, I couldn't find any mechanical difference between (say) a medium wooden shield and a medium hide shield.  Is there any advantage (in RQG) to paying the extra for a wooden shield?

There's no way hide, wood, and wicker shields would be identical.  Otherwise the entire Roman Empire would have been armed with cheap wicker hoplite shields.

There's a reason that there's a technological progression that - afaik - never went 'backward'. 

[Atgxtg]

If it helps, there was an article for RQ3 that gave different stats for hide, wood and wicker shields. I can dig it out if people are interested.

[trystero]

21 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

If it helps, there was an article for RQ3 that gave different stats for hide, wood and wicker shields. I can dig it out if people are interested.

I'm interested.

[Atgxtg]

Okay, I dug  out the article(Heroes Magazine Vol 2 Num 2). Anybody who doesn't trust my numbers or just wants to see the article for themselves can let me know and I'll see if I can scan the table for RQ3 or just type it out. It's small, but its's RQ3 so the STR, ENC and Price are different from RQ2 .  But here is a RQ2 adaption (hopefully it is RQG compatible). 

 

Small Hide Shield: STR 3+, Absorbs 2, Price  5, ENC 0 (0.25 or 0.5)

Medium Hide Shield; STR 7+, Absorbs 3, Price 10, ENC 1 (0.5)

Large Hide Shield: STR 10+, Absorbs 4, Price 17, ENC  1 (0.75)

 

Small Wood Shield: STR 5+, Absorbs 4, Price  10, ENC 1 

Medium Wood Shield; STR 9+, Absorbs 6, Price 20, ENC 2 (1.5)

Large Wood Shield: STR 12+, Absorbs 8, Price 35, ENC  3 (2.5)

 

Small Wicker Shield: STR 4+, Absorbs 3, Price 8  , ENC 1 (0.5) 

Medium Wicker Shield; STR 8+, Absorbs 4, Price 15, ENC 1 

Large Wicker Shield: STR 11+, Absorbs 5, Price 25, ENC  2 (1.5)

 

Here is the method I used based on the RQ3 Shield article. 

 

Hide Shields:  

STR: 2 points less 

Absorption: 1/4 (small 2 points,  medium 3 points, large shield 4 points)

Price: 1/3

ENC: 1/4  (this doesn't port over well to RQ2. small ENC values, unless you want to use half or quarter ENC points, so I rounded off and put fractional values in parentheses)

 

Wood Shields:  

STR: Normal 

Absorption: 1/2 (small 4 points,  medium 6 points, large shield 8 points)

Price: 2/3

ENC: 3/4 (this works out to the same unless you want to use half points of ENC, which I did in parentheses). 

 

Wicker shields were not covered in the article, but I  extrapolated what I consider to be a reasonable approximation by averaging the stats for hide and wood shields:

Wicker Shields:  

STR: 1 point less 

Absorption: 1/3 (small 3 points,  medium 4 points, large shield 5 points)

Price: 1/2

ENC: 1/2( again that doesn't port over well to RQ2 without using half points of ENC, so I did both in the table).

 

 

 

Edited June 17, 2018 by Atgxtg

[Tupper]

That's awesome.  The numbers make a lot of sense.  A hide shield is probably lovely to carry around (since it doesn't weigh much) but its ability to stop a heavy attack is probably a bit limited compared to a wooden shield.

[Atgxtg]

Thanks. I didn't write the original article just tried to translate it into RQ2/RQG. If I were doing it from scratch I probably would bump the absorption ratings up a bit  to make them more useful, especially for RQG where the average human has a +1d4 db. Why parry with a 2 point shield if you got a decent weapon? 

[Ian_W]

44 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Thanks. I didn't write the original article just tried to translate it into RQ2/RQG. If I were doing it from scratch I probably would bump the absorption ratings up a bit  to make them more useful, especially for RQG where the average human has a +1d4 db. Why parry with a 2 point shield if you got a decent weapon? 

A possible answer is 'because you'd prefer the cheap shield to be destroyed'.

In any case, I think the core problem isn't the shield, it's the prices.

In Prax, an entirely wooden shield is rare, expensive and a status symbol. Everyone else just makes do with cured zebra-hide stretched over a frame. And wicker shields - the Zola Fel gives many things, including reeds that are both tough and strong.

In Sartar, wood is a lot more common, but enough putting leather to make two pairs of boots and a helmet onto a shield ? That's the shield of a man with cows. And a wicker shield, in human size ? That's Duck export work, that is. They make quality, and they want silver for it too.

The prices strike me as right for Pavis, but wrong for Sartar.

Edited June 18, 2018 by Ian_W

[Atgxtg]

35 minutes ago, Ian_W said:

A possible answer is 'because you'd prefer the cheap shield to be destroyed'.

But would you rather die for it? The typical hit in RQG is going to be around 8 points, so a 2 point shield, by itself doesn't do much for you. Now the good thing is that most cultures that used hide shields seemed to have used big hide shields, and a 4 point shield plus some armor and/or protection is more useful.

35 minutes ago, Ian_W said:

In any case, I think the core problem isn't the shield, it's the prices.

In Prax, an entirely wooden shield is rare, expensive and a status symbol. Everyone else just makes do with cured zebra-hide stretched over a frame. And wicker shields - the Zola Fel gives many things, including reeds that are both tough and strong.

In Sartar, wood is a lot more common, but enough putting leather to make two pairs of boots and a helmet onto a shield ? That's the shield of a man with cows. And a wicker shield, in human size ? That's Duck export work, that is. They make quality, and they want silver for it too.

The prices strike me as right for Pavis, but wrong for Sartar.

Well, at the risk of going into the "wrong" edition, I think the solution is in RQ3. They had a rule in the GMs book where an item's price was multiplied by 2.5 each time you transported it away from it's place or manufacture to another type of market (urban, rural, wilds). Now if you multiples the prices by 2.5 or 6.25 for the transported goods, you might get prices more in line with what your thinking. That would work out to 63L or 155L for a large wicker shield, does either of those two prices sound about right to you?

They might have a similar rule in the RQG GM's book, but it's not out yet.

 

[Ian_W]

37 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

But would you rather die for it? The typical hit in RQG is going to be around 8 points, so a 2 point shield, by itself doesn't do much for you. Now the good thing is that most cultures that used hide shields seemed to have used big hide shields, and a 4 point shield plus some armor and/or protection is more useful.

Well, at the risk of going into the "wrong" edition, I think the solution is in RQ3. They had a rule in the GMs book where an item's price was multiplied by 2.5 each time you transported it away from it's place or manufacture to another type of market (urban, rural, wilds). Now if you multiples the prices by 2.5 or 6.25 for the transported goods, you might get prices more in line with what your thinking. That would work out to 63L or 155L for a large wicker shield, does either of those two prices sound about right to you?

 

The numbers quoted above are completely wrong, and the kind of gamey rules you get from people who don't know the history of combat. Or were writing a RPG combat system in 1978.

It is about the same difficulty to cut through three inches of hardened leather, three inches of wicker or three inches of wood, as that is what actively defending with the shield does.

Functionally, active shield work all about 'Did I get the edge of the shield on the edge of the weapon'. If you did, great. If you didn't, you're in trouble (and your block missed).

There are two theories with Bronze Age shields - a mucking big bronze shield that I don't move, it just protects my upper legs, abdomen and chest and in game terms acts as DR(*), or a small light shield that I try and get my enemy's weapon stuck in - because stopping their sword hitting me is good, but having their sword or spear stuck in my shield is best.

Similarly, parrying damaging swords should be an 'only if you do it wrong' - the reason all the dark age illustrations seem to show parrying with the flat is that's what a false edge/short edge parry looks like ('Absetzen' or 'setting aside' is the technique, and its got equivalents in Italian).

 

(*) To implement this, a Big Shield covers the shield arm and two declared areas, a Medium shield passively covers the shield arm and one declared areas and a small shield covers the shield arm. Any enemy attack on those areas adds the DR of the shield to the DR of the armor underneath. Yes, this does mean you can cover all the vital bits with a big shield. 'Parry' can be 

[Atgxtg]

20 minutes ago, Ian_W said:

The numbers quoted above are completely wrong, and the kind of gamey rules you get from people who don't know the history of combat. Or were writing a RPG combat system in 1978.

It is about the same difficulty to cut through three inches of hardened leather, three inches of wicker or three inches of wood, as that is what actively defending with the shield does.

Yup. Likewise, cuirboilli really ins't all that bad compared to plate. Chances are neither is getting cut or pieced by a blow and it is going to be the impact that counts. Plus slicing through hide is going to take a lot of the force out of a blow. The 2-4 AP is probably about right for what the shield can take, but not really what it can stop. 

 

 

 

 

[Ian_W]

10 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Yup. Likewise, cuirboilli really ins't all that bad compared to plate. Chances are neither is getting cut or pieced by a blow and it is going to be the impact that counts. Plus slicing through hide is going to take a lot of the force out of a blow. The 2-4 AP is probably about right for what the shield can take, but not really what it can stop. 

 

 

 

 

2-4, depending on if you're using a layer of zebra or a double layer of rhino, or two layers of linden laid crosswise or half an inch of oak, is probably what it can stop used passively front-on. But if you made your Block, the answer should be 'All of it'.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Ian_W

[styopa]

2 hours ago, Atgxtg said:

Thanks. I didn't write the original article just tried to translate it into RQ2/RQG. If I were doing it from scratch I probably would bump the absorption ratings up a bit  to make them more useful, especially for RQG where the average human has a +1d4 db. Why parry with a 2 point shield if you got a decent weapon? 

A 2 point shield still blocks missiles, which is damned useful.

[Ian_W]

20 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Yup. Likewise, cuirboilli really ins't all that bad compared to plate. Chances are neither is getting cut or pieced by a blow and it is going to be the impact that counts. Plus slicing through hide is going to take a lot of the force out of a blow. The 2-4 AP is probably about right for what the shield can take, but not really what it can stop. 

 

 

 

 

Well, just about every culture upgraded from cuirboilli once it could - and I do like the way a well-armored RW2/RQG fighter can pretty much ignore single handed weapons wielded by not-enhanced fighters. Note this is part of what makes Westerners so scary in Glornatha, as their sorcery-imbued metal armor makes them effectively immune to most weapons wielded by most people.

[Atgxtg]

29 minutes ago, styopa said:

A 2 point shield still blocks missiles, which is damned useful.

Okay, my RQ2 is out of date. Do shields just block missile attacks outright? I thought you just took the shield points off the damage. 

[Atgxtg]

20 minutes ago, Ian_W said:

Well, just about every culture upgraded from cuirboilli once it could

Yeah. Everybody will generally use the best armor they can afford. When your life is on the line you don't go cheap. 

20 minutes ago, Ian_W said:

 

 

- and I do like the way a well-armored RW2/RQG fighter can pretty much ignore single handed weapons wielded by not-enhanced fighters. Note this is part of what makes Westerners so scary in Glornatha, as their sorcery-imbued metal armor makes them effectively immune to most weapons wielded by most people.

Huh? A broadsword or spear doing 1D8+1+1D4  averages 8 points, which is 2 points more than 6 point plate (the best you can get without rune metals or magic). Toss in the  impales, and criticals, I don't see how they can ignore those attacks. 

[Ian_W]

6 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Okay, my RQ2 is out of date. Do shields just block missile attacks outright? I thought you just took the shield points off the damage. 

"Use of Shield Against Missile Weapons Thrown weapons can be parried if the target is aware of the attack and is ready to parry. Missiles shot by projectile weapons cannot be parried. However, a shield can be used to provide coverage against projectile weapons, if it is not used to parry that round. An adventurer may specify in their Statement of Intent (page 192) that they are holding their shield in one place, covering specific hit locations instead of parrying. If struck by a projectile, the shield protects those hit locations. If a shield is slung on the back of a missile target, the shield provides half its hit points as protection against chest hits when those hits are made from the rear." p219

[Atgxtg]

 

Just now, Ian_W said:

 An adventurer may specify in their Statement of Intent (page 192) that they are holding their shield in one place, covering specific hit locations instead of parrying. If struck by a projectile, the shield protects those hit locations. If a shield is slung on the back of a missile target, the shield provides half its hit points as protection against chest hits when those hits are made from the rear." p219

I would take that to mean that you got the shield's full hit point rating, not that it was an autostop.  

[Ian_W]

8 minutes ago, Atgxtg said:

Yeah. Everybody will generally use the best armor they can afford. When your life is on the line you don't go cheap. 

Huh? A broadsword or spear doing 1D8+1+1D4  averages 8 points, which is 2 points more than 6 point plate (the best you can get without rune metals or magic). Toss in the  impales, and criticals, I don't see how they can ignore those attacks. 

Now throw six points of Protection onto that 6 point armor ...

 

Edited June 19, 2018 by Ian_W