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10baseT

Heortland Viziel Esvulari

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I read the very helpful HQ Voices-Esvular that talks about an Esvular village on the coastal flats below Viziel. It talks about the village of Beauchief and the population being about half Orlanthi/Hendriki and half Esvulari. Well, i'm familiar with the Orlanthi family and clan structure but not the Esvulari. HQVoices-Esvular mentions the Esvular village leader is a knight who owes fealty to the count of Viziel who in turn owes fealty to the Earl's conclave. From other readings and posts, i gather the knights are more like cataphracts. But what i dont know is, how is, with all the great RQG that has come out, how is the Esvulari government or structure like? Are their still knights, dukes, counts and earls... and these report  up to the annual talar councils at Mt Passant? (mainly looking at 1625 but any info is great).

Oh, and bishops are called Watchers?

(my guess is, now that some silt may have settled and development done, more info may be at hand... and thank you in advance)

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1 hour ago, 10baseT said:

I read the very helpful HQ Voices-Esvular that talks about an Esvular village on the coastal flats below Viziel. It talks about the village of Beauchief and the population being about half Orlanthi/Hendriki and half Esvulari. Well, i'm familiar with the Orlanthi family and clan structure but not the Esvulari. HQVoices-Esvular mentions the Esvular village leader is a knight who owes fealty to the count of Viziel who in turn owes fealty to the Earl's conclave. From other readings and posts, i gather the knights are more like cataphracts. But what i dont know is, how is, with all the great RQG that has come out, how is the Esvulari government or structure like? Are their still knights, dukes, counts and earls... and these report  up to the annual talar councils at Mt Passant? (mainly looking at 1625 but any info is great).

The Esvulari structure themselves according to the social norms that were established by the Middle Sea Empire (I'm inferring from p86 of History of the Heortling Peoples).  They probably have a big book of how its done that Belintar initially used to organize the Holy Country.  They have separate organisations for government, army, trade, sorcery and treasure.  The Middle Sea Empire book distinguished between Religion and Sorcery but I don't think that's viable now.  There's also a Navy but that would be mainly fishing since the Closing.

 

 

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9 hours ago, metcalph said:

(I'm inferring from p86 of History of the Heortling Peoples

Thank you, that was a good read. So it sounds like they still use the term knights. And Deputies run the provinces (which the Orlanthi call Earls) and they are assisted by Comes (which the Orlanthi call Shire Reaves or Sherrifs). While Orlanthi Chieftains still ruled their clans and and in their areas, are somewhat equivlent to the Deputies and Comes.

Edited by 10baseT

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7 minutes ago, 10baseT said:

Thank you, that was a good read. So it sounds like they still use the term knights.

It's debatable.  But nobody's going to complain if you call their mounted warriors knights.

7 minutes ago, 10baseT said:

And Deputies run the provinces (which the Orlanthi call Earls) and they are assisted by Comes (which the Orlanthi call Shire Reaves or Sherrifs). While Orlanthi Chieftains still ruled their clans and and in their areas, are somewhat equivlent to the Deputies and Comes.

There's really no difference between the Orlanthi and the Esvulari here.  The type of people the Esvulari appoint to be Deputies (The actual term would have been Vicar which is too ecclesiastical or the Greek Exarch (Ex-Archos -> From the Archon) which exists in Glorantha) and Comes (Counts) would be what the Orlanthi elsewhere call tribal kings and chieftains.  They might even think of themselves as such with the Malkioni titles being reserved for formal government usage.    

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The Esvlulari sestion of HQ Voices is one of the few there that needs an update, due to the latterly revised nature of the West (back to how Greg originally intended).

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The Esvulari "knight" is in all likelihood the local talar caste administrator, as all Esvulari are warriors (or war mages in case of their zzaburi). This is quite similar to the noble heavy cavalry of Rokari Seshnela, which in turn inherits the Hrestoli Man-of-all inititiation that most talar caste leaders of the pre-Rokari west used to undergo. It was possible for an Old Seshnegi talar to be purely an administrator or bureaucrat without any martial or magical abilities, but the higher offices sort of required the man-of-all status.

It isn't entirely clear whether the village belongs to a single clan or whether it is shared between the Esvulari administrative unit and the clan the local Heortling villagers belong to. Personally, I think that the lowland clans on the coast really are Pelaskites using the Heortling clan model, with distributed settlements not unlike the Red Cow folk, and that village actually being something like a twin village of Heortling/Pelaskite fisherfolk/coastal herders and farmers and an Esvulari domain.

The strictly endogamous caste system of the Esvulari makes it quite impossible for the talar leader and his free (commoner) folk to be actually blood-related, although it isn't clear whether that applies only to marriage, or only to sex. Unlike Rokari peasants, the freeman status allows individuals or families to leave their place of birth/residence and to seek out another talar or even another place without any talars to set up their business/farm/service.

In praxis, the property laws may be extremely similar to those of the Heortlings. In a Heortling clan, the clan property is supervised and allocated by the chieftain. The land, the majority of the herds, the buildings and the majority of the harvest or cottage industry products and even spoils of war are clan property. Most of what isn't is household (blood line) property. Personal property comes as a distant third.

For the Esvulari, a domain (tula, guild?) probably is tied to the (talar caste) office of the local lord (dominus?), whichever title he may have. There are likely a few offices tied to a domain, possibly also a number of offices that must be held by members of the free caste - foremen. Administrative stuff, resource allocation etc. is handled by the talars, while resource accumulation is handled by the commoners.

In a fishing community, the boats are likely to be clan property, although wealthy households may have boats of their own. Communally used nets to trap swarms with several boats cooperating will be clan property, single mobile fish or crab traps probably aren't. A household milk cow or oxen may be owned by the bloodline, as will a few sheep, pigs, or poultry. Much of the gear like trident spears, harpoons, and even knives will be household items on permanent loan to household members, although adults will start to accumulate personal property, too. Horses or donkeys probably belong to the domain and are assigned by the dominus or his assistants.

Legally, an Esvulari therefore relies more on his domain (representation by his officiating talar or his legal deputy) than on his kin (although the talar will put a significant portion of the load of fees incurred onto the household of the culprit, and will take his share in any form of recompensation. In short, a rural Esvulari domain works pretty much like an urban guild that consists of people from various clans or even tribes.

in Esvulari-dominated lands the domain often takes precedence over the Heortling tula. Mixed clans cannot really work, but mixed tribes under hereditary Esvulari leadership can work. It might be similar to the Far Shielings/Fordstone meta-community described in The Coming Storm p.30, although with much less of the flirting.

In case of almost urban cohabitation of Esvulari and Heortling clans in a rural place, the guild model might be drawn on once again. Communal (e.g. fishing) activities will involve participants of both the Esvulari and the Heortling population, and there will be rather clear distribution schemes to the clans and domains participating, such as maintenance and harvesting of permanent fish traps in estuaries or bays (including a measure of the tribute that will go to the Ludoch).

I wonder whether the lord of a domain is automatically a tribal officer (Heortlings would speak of thanes), alongside specialized officers for specific tribal activities.

 

The use of "comes" as a plural form is another of the (all too common) Latin fails in Glorantha, along with the apple goddess of disease, Mallia. Should really be "comites", pronounced in three syllables (co-mee-tais).

WIth the non-zzaburi Malkioni in RQG now using spirit magic (quite likely from Ancestor Worship) and rune magic (the Esvulari sort of associate spells from the Orlanth pantheon), they have lost much if not all that made them different from the Theyalans. I preferred the Midkemia-like approach of unsophisticated rote-learned spells, possibly requiring a written instruction, over this "pagan" version even for nobles and urban folk.

 

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On 7/23/2018 at 8:50 AM, Joerg said:

WIth the non-zzaburi Malkioni in RQG now using spirit magic (quite likely from Ancestor Worship) and rune magic (the Esvulari sort of associate spells from the Orlanth pantheon), they have lost much if not all that made them different from the Theyalans. I preferred the Midkemia-like approach of unsophisticated rote-learned spells, possibly requiring a written instruction, over this "pagan" version even for nobles and urban folk.

I think you still have this. The primary differentiator between the West and the barbarian belt was always the tissue of knights and sorcerers on top of warriors, peasants and cunning folk. Now there's more focus on the shared experience of the vast population that uses unsophisticated cottage magic below official scrutiny and caste taboo. They have the right to spells. The blue man lost a war and conceded that right to everyone with the ability, desire and opportunity to traffic with the right entities and learn the charms. Depending on circumstances, some will still consider this Midkemian "peasant magic" outside the zzabur system but still acceptable unto God. Others will have been taught that this is a reversion to paganism. (The teachers obviously have a vested interest in reinforcing their official monopoly and suppressing the obvious paradox of how faithful non-sorcerers do magic.)

The Menena are the natural swing case here since their earth mother lore is most rigorously suppressed in the texts we have and yet arguably ubiquitous in half the population. When women can't aspire to the priesthood witchcraft emerges. But even within the male castes the line blurs between apostasy and a birthright reclaimed. In my villages they still have something like literacy; it's just that the zzabur can't and won't see it for what it is. Maximum Fun For Your Glorantha.

Edited by scott-martin
peasant "books"
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And... 

If all this Gloranthan Scholarship gets in the way, I would just play it as an analog to Early Norman England... a thin foreign imposed administration of a somewhat feudal nature, over a well established native Chiefdom/Tribe.

I would continue to use Knight/Duke/Count/Earl, as it requires less explanation for players. For visuals however, I would probably resort to Osprey (if available) depictions of early Parthian or Iranian, or perhaps Sarmatian, horsemen. 

Then I would use the scholarship above to slowly introduce little quirks.

SDLeary

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15 hours ago, scott-martin said:

I think you still have this. The primary differentiator between the West and the barbarian belt was always the tissue of knights and sorcerers on top of warriors, peasants and cunning folk. Now there's more focus on the shared experience of the vast population that uses unsophisticated cottage magic below official scrutiny and caste taboo. They have the right to spells. The blue man lost a war and conceded that right to everyone with the ability, desire and opportunity to traffic with the right entities and learn the charms.

The Blue Man lost face, and the knights established their access to sorcery. And the Man-of-All is the one who has mastered the approach to sorcery (a technique, a rune), not the person training for it.

Having mastered the training for sorcery (literacy, technique, rune) doesn't make you a Man-of-All yet, there are other things to master, too. It can be assumed that a non-zzaburi who approaches the path of the Man-of-All will have mastered her own caste's proficiencies, but that leaves two more castes' proficiencies besides that of a sorcerer.

When I studied chemistry, I met enough people good at chemistry who failed to master the math test, even if they could apply the math to physical chemistry, despite being allowed to use whatever literature they brought into the test. I assume that it will be little different for talar caste applicants failing to get their dromal assignments done, and vice versa.

 

Hrestoli society has a place for these aspiring or flunking aspirants for man-of-all status.

The two sample societies in RQG don't have them.

The Rokari do have a soldier caste and a noble warrior caste, but neither are encouraged to encroach on the zzaburi privileges.

The Esvulari Aeolians don't even have a soldier caste - every Esvulari is expected to be able to pick up weapons and fight, although they do of course have professionals, both among the commoners and among the nobility. In a way, that's a fair step to the Man-of-All.

The concept of Men-of-all is a development which arrived in their lands only with Arkat's crusade, and by that time Arkat had already moved on and was about to move on even further, adopting an uz mother, and his followers after the Gbaji War appear to have been able to use the Kitori shapes and magic. There is a possibility that the real contact with men-of-all occurred only with the Slontan invasions of Heortland, and by that time the Esvulari noble cavalry may have been long established.

15 hours ago, scott-martin said:

Depending on circumstances, some will still consider this Midkemian "peasant magic" outside the zzabur system but still acceptable unto God. Others will have been taught that this is a reversion to paganism. (The teachers obviously have a vested interest in reinforcing their official monopoly and suppressing the obvious paradox of how faithful non-sorcerers do magic.)

There were numerous things in HQ1 which weren't quite as I would have liked them, but I did like the possibility of having an "order" of guild magics under the general heading of sorcery, with "orderlies" invested deep enough to use their scripture for their magic.

The RQG sorcery rules work fine for what was RQ3 apprentice and adept level - for these, they are indeed a step up, with less paperwork though highly increased MP cost. The combination of Technique and Rune is a solid concept, one already used (but under-explored) in HQG, and great for the specialist user.

It isn't something a non-specialist could even approach.

There is bound to be a pre-Apprentice stage of sorcery. The question is how these people perform sorcery.
 

15 hours ago, scott-martin said:

The Menena are the natural swing case here since their earth mother lore is most rigorously suppressed in the texts we have and yet arguably ubiquitous in half the population. When women can't aspire to the priesthood witchcraft emerges. But even within the male castes the line blurs between apostasy and a birthright reclaimed. In my villages they still have something like literacy; it's just that the zzabur can't and won't see it for what it is. Maximum Fun For Your Glorantha.

I wonder whether the Menena caste is tied to the Earth Mother, or whether they are tied to the very principle of motherhood, regardless of element. There are a significant number of sea-wives in Malkioni history, too, starting with Malkion's mother Warera. Not all Tilntae are tied to land or trees.

Immortal Malkioni society apparently started out with a much lower number of women, and it isn't clear what concept of marriage they had. A few generations later, there would have been about the same number of female as male Malkioni/Brithini/Danmalastani, and the ubiquity would have been reached. These few generations later may very well have been born in the Grey Age.

Malkioni society is sufficiently patriarchal that children are supposed to be born within of wedlock or acknowledged concubinate. On the other hand, Rokari society has been discussed as lustful and concerned primarily with keeping reproduction inside the caste, and less obsessed about keeping sexual affairs within the marriage.

Menena certainly looms in any debate about caste restrictions and mores. The Brithini custom of assigning the sons into castes depending on birth order suggests that Hrestol and Fenela would have had two older brothers, one a Dromal and one a Horal. Likewise their cousin, the King of Brithos after Hoalar underwent the ultimate sacrifice, does appear more like a firstborn than like a third-born son. But then, maybe the count-up starts with the father's caste? That would produce an awful lot of Horali-born Talars, though.

By the time of the Gbaji Wars, the Seshnegi kings clearly considered all of their sons as members of the talar caste, as the two-generation dynasty preceding Gerlant's reign proves (Seshnelan king list part 1)..

 

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16 hours ago, SDLeary said:

And... 

If all this Gloranthan Scholarship gets in the way, I would just play it as an analog to Early Norman England... a thin foreign imposed administration of a somewhat feudal nature, over a well established native Chiefdom/Tribe.

I would continue to use Knight/Duke/Count/Earl, as it requires less explanation for players. For visuals however, I would probably resort to Osprey (if available) depictions of early Parthian or Iranian, or perhaps Sarmatian, horsemen. 

Then I would use the scholarship above to slowly introduce little quirks.

SDLeary

I was using both that and Anglo-Saxon immigrants lording over Romano-British subjects in my original approach to the Aeolians. Since (Roman) chain mail is no longer appropriate for the visuals, I might go Bactrian as one influence:

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/572520171371878528/

We do have three castes of Aeolians and a non-caste of non-Aeolian Orlanthi, some of whom may still act as rural nobles within the southern tribes.

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3 hours ago, Joerg said:

That would produce an awful lot of Horali-born Talars, though.

There's a lot in this post but this piece in particular might've just explained the Brithini Civil War. Besides if red fathers have yellow sons, one way or another it's natural to imagine blue fathers will balk at their heirs falling to the bottom of the system . . . or trying to enforce a "new interpretation" where blue breeds yellow.

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