Tying myself in knots over character creation skills

[PhilHibbs]

I'm trying to automate character creation, and I'm kind of stuck in a confusing place. It all looks really simple on the surface, but when you get down to specifics, it gets quite surprisingly thorny.

Cultures and occupations give weapon skills. Pretty simple, right? Well, sort of, but what it lists are mostly weapons, not weapon skills. For example, Battle Axe has two different base chances, one for 1H use and one for 2H use. Do you get to use your Sartar or Esrolia skill bonus with both? Sure, why not. Problem solved.

Javelin. 1H melee, or thrown? Both? So that means if the player has a choice of Javelin or Sling, and chooses Javelin, then they get two skills. If they choose sling, they don't get Javelin. That's tricky to implement in a spreadsheet!

1H Spear. Sartarites get 1H Spear. Great. Is that any 1H spear? If I choose Short Spear, then since Short Spear would also give 2H Short Spear, do I get that as well? Probably not, that's just being cheeky.

So for 1H Spear I choose Javelin. Well, Sartarites also get Javelin, which gives me 1H Javelin and Thrown Javelin. So now I have 1H Javelin twice! Do I get it twice? Probably not.

Both of those "probably not"s are obvious to a person. It's common sense. It's really tricky to implement in code though!

A related question is, if I have Javelin skill, and I can either throw it or stab someone in melee, are they the same skill, in that they both go up together?

Edited July 30, 2018 by PhilHibbs

[jeffjerwin]

2 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

A related question is, if I have Javelin skill, and I can either throw it or stab someone in melee, are they the same skill, in that they both go up together?

These seem like they should be different skills. Aiming and throwing a javelin is substantially different from handling a spear in close combat.

[styopa]

Precisely where I get my frustration over a lot of the 'hand-craftedness' of RQ2/RQG.  When you start to try to distill things down to what a computer can understand, then you run smack-dab into inconsistencies that are trivial to the human brain to resolve but end up with a programmer pounding their head against the desk at the arbitrariness.

For example all the different tables with different breakpoints for stat mods, SR, etc...."WHHHYYYYY????"

[PhilHibbs]

7 minutes ago, styopa said:

For example all the different tables with different breakpoints for stat mods, SR, etc...."WHHHYYYYY????"

I think different breakpoints are a good thing. If everything got 1 point better at 13, and 1 point better at 16, then there would be an even greater tendency to go for those breakpoints at character creation, and little incentive to do begin the training slog to the next breakpoint. I'd like more variety. It's a real shame that DEX doesn't follow this by having different breakpoints for DEX SR.

Edited July 30, 2018 by PhilHibbs

[Julian Lord]

13 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

I'm trying to automate character creation, and I'm kind of stuck in a confusing place. It all looks really simple on the surface, but when you get down to specifics, it gets quite surprisingly thorny.

Cultures and occupations give weapon skills. Pretty simple, right? Well, sort of, but what it lists are mostly weapons, not weapon skills. For example, Battle Axe has two different base chances, one for 1H use and one for 2H use.

RuneQuest is actually being not very realistic here -- someone who knows how to use a hafted weapon like a battle axe not only will be able to use it both 1H and 2H (unless say he's only got one arm), but the techniques that he has with the weapon will be directly transferable to all similar hafted weapons, such as maces or scythes (kopis).

13 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

1H Spear. Sartarites get 1H Spear. Great. Is that any 1H spear? If I choose Short Spear, then since Short Spear would also give 2H Short Spear, do I get that as well? Probably not, that's just being cheeky.

Pole arms, even a short spear that's light enough to be usable one-handed (with a shield for example), are 2H weapons. If you've skill with the spear, you know how to use it two-handed ; indeed, your normal spear-fighting stance outside of a phalanx is likely to be a 2-handed one using length to keep your opponent out of your quarter, speed and control to make your attacks from a safe distance.

The quarterstaff is a bit of an exception to the rule, and so is the 2H greatsword (each for opposite reasons to the other), but otherwise 2H pole arm fighting techniques are all pretty similar. There's some overlap between the techniques, so that someone familiar with greatsword could use a quarterstaff or pole arm perhaps with a penalty, and so on.

Mêlée weapons like the rapier that need to be learned more specifically are, realistically, quite rare among those used in 3rd Age Glorantha.

13 hours ago, PhilHibbs said:

A related question is, if I have Javelin skill, and I can either throw it or stab someone in melee, are they the same skill, in that they both go up together?

Historically, weapon throwing needed to be learned and trained separately as special techniques.

BTW a steel longsword in the Western style is light and well-balanced enough to use efficiently enough as a thrown weapon -- but the bronze ones of central Genertela probably are not.

Longswords were nearly always used 2-handed BTW

Edited July 31, 2018 by Julian Lord

[styopa]

There's an argument (and I have a fair amount of half-baked notes) about recognizing that a lot of combat skills are generally shared between weapons until you get to extremely high levels of proficiency.

For example I toyed with (for melee weapons):

01-25 basic combat....at this skill level, it doesn't matter what weapon you pick up and use.  They all share this same skill - fundamentals of breathing, watching your opponent, etc..  Once you get your Basic Combat to 26...

26-50 basic specialization....you have to pick "Swinging" or "Thrusting".  Swinging, whether it's a mace, a sword, or a chair, 1h or 2h all are going to be about timing, dealing with blocking, your own center of gravity, etc.  Thrusting whether it's a spear, rapier, or dining fork they all share the same.  If you have 38% in "Swinging" and pick up a spear, then you default to your 25% basic combat skill until you've leveled up that "Thrusting" category.  Once you level either category to 51, you have to pick...

51-75 family specialization...per the RQ "groups" of weapons - I think I'd probably lump together 1H and 2H, because I don't think (at this level) they'd be THAT different, at least not as different as swinging an axe would be to swinging a scimitar.  

76-00 weapon specialization - it's the specific weapon on the table - 1h battleaxe vs 1h hatchet, for example.

00+ expertise - your weapon skill is tied to A SPECIFIC WEAPON.  YOUR broadsword, for example, not just any broadsword.

As I said, unfinished notes.  I personally think the 'expertise' level should probably be at 125+, but not sure where justifiably to insert another bracket.  I kind of think the 26-50 bracket could use a couple of more categories "shield" would be an intrinsically different method of attack than most swinging weapons, as would "hand to hand" (which itself could justifiably be broken into strikes and grapples).

 

So for Noob Guard at 45%?  You can hand him a 1h spear or pike or pitchfork, he's going to pretty much be as effective as his level of skill they'd all be pretty much the same method.

Elite Duellist at 118%?  If you can break her sword or get rid of it, you just knocked her down to 100% skill - a big advantage.

 

[Julian Lord]

10 hours ago, styopa said:

There's an argument (and I have a fair amount of half-baked notes) about recognizing that a lot of combat skills are generally shared between weapons until you get to extremely high levels of proficiency.

I almost made that exact same suggestion in my own post, but I was stumped by how to word it elegantly. Thanks for having done so !!

But I think that your "expertise" level should more realistically be done away with.

A degree of mastery for using your personal weapon is certainly a good heroic fantasy type idea, but I'd probably want to tie that into some Eastern martial arts or Western or Pelorian fencing schools teaching singular techniques, or Odaylan hunting lodges, or so on and similar, rather than applying it to attack skill % generally. And I'd probably define it as something like a new skill, equal to the specific weapon skill, maybe so that you get to make % improvement rolls with 1d8 instead of 1d6, with rolls of 7 or 8 being counted as 5 or 6 for the associated weapon skill, but as 7 or 8 with your personal weapon.

And of course needing to retrain the technique all over again to switch the skill to a different weapon, and etc etc insert all the other "special weapon" heroic fantasy tropes here.

And I'd probably use the skills ranges -- 01-49 ; 50-74 ; 75-89 ; 90+ (though an argument could also be made for 01-40 ; 41-74 ; 75-99 ; 100+)

Edited August 1, 2018 by Julian Lord

[Hteph]

I have also stared at those rules for a while and rigth now I'm toying with  just two combat skills Hack&Slash and Stabbing. Then some kind of specialisation at later stages., much like Styopa outlines. Probably draw in the RQ6 special weapons qualities and effects shenanigans for those who like to fiddle with their combat.

Then I need to squint at the missile combat and see if i can make some sense of that too...

[PhilHibbs]

1 hour ago, Hteph said:

Then I need to squint at the missile combat and see if i can make some sense of that too...

I think the three different types which I'd call Thrown, Strung, and Mechanical are entirely separate.

[Joerg]

16 hours ago, styopa said:

There's an argument (and I have a fair amount of half-baked notes) about recognizing that a lot of combat skills are generally shared between weapons until you get to extremely high levels of proficiency.

Thrown spear or atlatl is distinctly different from thrown axe, which is different from thrown knife, as visitors of the Kraken will be able to attest.

Bows may use different styles and releases - if you are using the English draw, a release behind your head is quite impossible, whereas thumb release as used by the Parthian on that frieze discussed a while ago here seems to allow such. I own have shot a small variety of bows, but usually using the English release, and only a few times using the sling release that fully-teched up compound archers use (maybe not fully, I have yet to see laser visors at work). That said, if you stick to your release style, you can pick up just about any bow and use it after acquainting yourself with its properties and ammo. (Which in my case often enough means not to draw it to full length because the arrows are way too short, reducing me to using the opera release way ahead of my face.)

Instinctive release and aimed sniping aren't completely exclusive, but might be treated as separate skills. Sniping will come easy with crossbows as you don't have to exert force to keep the tension in the bow as you aim, and it works well with not too heavy bows and some means of matching the line of sight across the point of the arrow and an anchoring in relation to your eye (such as face walking or string walking in barebow field archery), or a "visor" in the shape of stripes on your lower arm matched to a distance for completely horizontal shots. (If you are defending a fortified position, you will probably have distance markers out there in the killing field, and corresponding markers on your bow.)

Missile quality plays a big role. A stronger bow will need stronger shafts or way more fletching. Using perfectly matched arrows (craft(Fletcher)), your accuracy will be great. Using run-of-the-mill military issue arrows will require some experience to correct for different draw lengths or individual strength of a bow.

Weapon quality and familiarity cannot be more than a modifyer to skill, though, and skill may easily surpass 100% for archers used to firing under deleterious conditions (e.g. from unstable platforms like chariots).

Picking up an unfamiliar weapon (or ammo) in the middle of a fight should come with a penalty. Using a weapon after a few shots to determine its oddities should eliminate most of those penalties (it's like "shooting in the sight").

[Yelm's Light]

Knife fighting = shortsword = rapier = cutlass = florentine = claymore?  Mace = morning star = flail = quarterstaff = staff?  Uh no.

Edited August 1, 2018 by Yelm's Light

[styopa]

 

19 minutes ago, Yelm's Light said:

Knife fighting = shortsword = rapier = cutlass = florentine = claymore?  Mace = morning star = flail = quarterstaff = staff?  Uh no.

Not sure who you're responding to?  Who ever suggested those things were equal, or even equivalent?

[Yelm's Light]

9 hours ago, styopa said:

Not sure who you're responding to?  Who ever suggested those things were equal, or even equivalent?

You did.  The basics of those styles aren't anywhere near the same, certainly not enough to treat them that way, which is exactly what you're suggesting.

[PhilHibbs]

6 hours ago, Yelm's Light said:

You did.  The basics of those styles aren't anywhere near the same, certainly not enough to treat them that way, which is exactly what you're suggesting.

I think the principle is that the basics of melee combat are universal - awareness of your opponent, control of your own body under stress, getting over any reluctance to place yourself in harm's way. That's what you are learning up to the first break point where weapon categories diverge.

And really, saying "you did" when he clearly thinks that he didn't? That's a bit unnecessary.

Edited August 2, 2018 by PhilHibbs

[Yelm's Light]

In other words, no matter what the weapon, you can just pick it up and be as good with it as with any other weapon.

It was him that suggested it, and I didn't mistake it.  So I answered his question, and quite literally, thank you.

[Julian Lord]

7 hours ago, Yelm's Light said:

In other words, no matter what the weapon, you can just pick it up and be as good with it as with any other weapon

... at a very basic skill % level only ...

Broadsword skill 125% -- pick up a cudgel as an emergency weapon ? Skill 25%

So not, not "be as good with it as with any other weapon" ...

[PhilHibbs]

On 8/2/2018 at 4:03 PM, Julian Lord said:

... at a very basic skill % level only ...

Broadsword skill 125% -- pick up a cudgel as an emergency weapon ? Skill 25%

So not, not "be as good with it as with any other weapon" ...

Anyone with a skill of 125% is likely to have a +10 manipulation modifier anyway, so they have 25% already. I'd make that first threshold higher.

[styopa]

On 8/11/2018 at 3:58 AM, PhilHibbs said:

Anyone with a skill of 125% is likely to have a +10 manipulation modifier anyway, so they have 25% already. I'd make that first threshold higher.

Yeah, as stated not a fully fleshed-out system, more of a germ of an idea really.  It just seemed silly that super-nasty 140% greatsword warrior picks up a dagger and is...base skill only.

I'd agree that realistically the steps should probably be diminishing bands, not equal ranges.

So it might be:

01-40

41-65

66-80

81-90

91-100

..etc?

 

Edited August 13, 2018 by styopa

[PhilHibbs]

17 minutes ago, styopa said:

Yeah, as stated not a fully fleshed-out system, more of a germ of an idea really.  It just seemed silly that super-nasty 140% greatsword warrior picks up a dagger and is...base skill only.

I'd agree that realistically the steps should probably be diminishing bands, not equal ranges.

I'd go with 50, 75, 90, 100. Simple.

All weapons: cap at 50

Same style, e.g. Shalshing: cap at 75.

Same category (e.g. 1H Axes): cap at 90.

Same weapon (e.g. 1H Battle Axe): cap at 100. Above that, it needs to be your personal weapon, or a specific weapon that you have used a few times. Practice with a similar-skill partner should be ok for this, so if your sword breaks, you have to take some time out to spar before being able to use a replacement at full skill. Maybe 10% per hour of practice or something like that.

[styopa]

37 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said:

I'd go with 50, 75, 90, 100. Simple.

All weapons: cap at 50

Same style, e.g. Shalshing: cap at 75.

Same category (e.g. 1H Axes): cap at 90.

Same weapon (e.g. 1H Battle Axe): cap at 100. Above that, it needs to be your personal weapon, or a specific weapon that you have used a few times. Practice with a similar-skill partner should be ok for this, so if your sword breaks, you have to take some time out to spar before being able to use a replacement at full skill. Maybe 10% per hour of practice or something like that.

That's nice and simple!  Thanks!

I get hung up on missile weapons a little.  I can see MAYBE a shared cap across "missile weapons" at 25%, but I don't think it'd be higher.  Up to 50 might be shared across type - bow, sling, thrown (spear), thrown (axe), thrown (blade), but beyond 50 I just can't see where the coordination, techniques, even the missile flight wouldn't require some pretty category-specific knowledge/experience.  Above 100 would still be specific weapon.

That results in missile weapons skills generally not being as laterally "portable" as melee.  That seems credible?

 

Then again, every system is a rationalization between playability and realism; in that sense, maybe it would just be simpler to use the same tiers as melee 50-75-90-100.  So if you have sling at 95 and pick up a bow, you'd be at 50.