Lord High Munchkin Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 What are the stats for human pygmies? This is a wide-spread question, as obviously there are the various animal riders of Prax, the wasp-riding Bezjalaf, the Teshnan and Kralori Pujaleg, and the Errinoru pygmies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 (edited) I don't think there are any official ones anywhere, yet. By height and weight (under 100 pounds) they would come in at lower than SIZ 8 in RQ3 and possibly in RQG. RQ3 touched a little on Earth cultures, but not much (we got Vikings and Saxons). Pendragon gives us more to go on, but isn't actually RQ, gives somewhat different stats for Vikings than RQ, and uses a different SIZ table. However, if we go with average SIZ in KAP5 and RQ we probably would end up in the right ballpark. I doubt the numbers would diverge by more than a point or two. Britons, Romans SIZ 14.5 (average in Knights & Ladies, but because KAP uses a different SIZ formula that work out to closer to SIZ13 In RQ3 ) Saxon, Dane SIZ 17.5 (SIZ 15 in RQ3 Vikings, which is about right for KAP to RQ3 SIZ) German, Spanish, Italians (Otrogoths) SIZ 16.5 (probably about SIZ 14 in RQ) Huns 12.5 (probably about SIZ 10 in RQ) Picts 11.5 (probably about SIZ 8.5 in RQ) So we could probably assume Pygmies are as small or slightly smaller than Picts, so maybe 2D4+3 or so for SIZ? Now in real life muscle mass is somewhat linked to overall mass. Or, basically you ca'tn have 100 pounds of muscle if you only weight 70 pounds. It's a square cube relationship between strength and mass, which would be about a two-thirds relationship in RQ and related games. So if Pygmies were about 5 points lighter in SIZ terms than the RQ average man, they would probably average about 3 points lower STR than an average man. So probably about a 2D4+3 STR. Now RQ has species such as Ducks who are smaller and not as strong as humans. SO we could compare these stats to theirs. Edited December 30, 2018 by Atgxtg Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord High Munchkin Posted December 30, 2018 Author Share Posted December 30, 2018 That stat range might be too big. The info from the GtG is: "Impala people are pygmies. Adult men are typically less than 4 feet 11 inches tall and women no more than 4 feet 8 inches." p. 26 "The Pygmies of Errinoru… A diminutive race of dark-skinned people lives in the jungles of Pamaltela. They are little more than three feet tall at most, and many are shorter." p. 546 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted December 30, 2018 Share Posted December 30, 2018 It might be. The under 4'11" bit matches with Earth "Pygmies". The 2D4+3 was for them. Part of the problem here is that one the one hand people probably want some variation when generating characters, let on the other hand the SIZ table get's condencsed at the low end. SO you want someone to be small, but you don''t want them ending up smaller than a housecat. We could alter the 2D4+3 to 2D3+4 or even 1D6+4 or something similar. If we apply the cube-square rule for the Errinoru we'd probably end up with a weight of around 25 pounds, or SIZ 3 ish. But I'd suspect we might end up with stats closer to the RQ3 Halfling, namely STR 2D6 and SIZ 2D3. Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord High Munchkin Posted December 31, 2018 Author Share Posted December 31, 2018 Been thinking a bit - random musings really…. After some “noggin-bashing” I arrived at the following (thanks for your input Atgxtg). Sadly my copy of ‘Foes’ is at work in my studio, so I am unsure of the RQ2 SIZ range used there for pygmies. Errinoru Pygmies STR 2D6 7 CON 3D6 10-11 SIZ 2D3 4 INT 2D6+6 13 POW 3D6 10-11 DEX 3D6 10-11 CHA 3D6 10-11 Impala Pygmies STR 2D6+3 10 CON 3D6 10-11 SIZ 1D6+4 7-8 INT 2D6+6 13 POW 3D6 10-11 DEX 3D6 10-11 CHA 3D6 10-11 Ostrich Pygmies The old RQ3 ‘Heroes Magazine’ gave the following for “pure-blood” Ostrich Clansmen: STR 2D6+1D4 9-10 CON 3D6 10-11 SIZ 1D4+7 9-10 INT 2D6+6 13 POW 3D6 10-11 DEX 2D6+6 13 APP 3D6 10-11 However, I am not a fan of that STR “extra die” and the odd dice bonus given to SIZ (most RQ3 stat bonuses were multiples of 3, although very, very occasionally there would be something else, but I don’t like it in this case). So, I think prefer this block: STR 2D6+3 10 CON 3D6 10-11 SIZ 2D3+6 8 INT 2D6+6 13 POW 3D6 10-11 DEX 3D6 10-11 I don’t see why they would arbitrarily have a higher DEX than any other nomads (individuals may vary). CHA 3D6 10-11 Anyway, thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byll Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 Impala riders are just -2 SIZ, +2 DEX in RQG P53 (Homeland Characteristic Modifiers) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Scott Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 2 hours ago, Byll said: Impala riders are just -2 SIZ, +2 DEX in RQG P53 (Homeland Characteristic Modifiers) For reference we are using the same for Ostrich and Bolo folk in RQG. 1 Quote ----- Search the Glorantha Resource Site: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com. Search the Glorantha mailing list archives: https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 3 hours ago, David Scott said: For reference we are using the same for Ostrich and Bolo folk in RQG. Thanks. So STR 8-9, SIZ 11. Yeah, that would work. Enough STR to use a bow or lance. Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 37 minutes ago, Atgxtg said: Thanks. So STR 8-9, SIZ 11. Yeah, that would work. Enough STR to use a bow or lance. Just curious: why are you dropping STR by 2 as well as size? It's not what David was referring to... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 Just now, womble said: Just curious: why are you dropping STR by 2 as well as size? It's not what David was referring to... Because I misread his post, not by design. 1 Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Scott Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Atgxtg said: Thanks. So STR 8-9, SIZ 11. The NPC calculations for the prax book are currently Impala & Ostrich riders (primary rune Fire, secondary & tertiary is any) STR 3D6 = average is 10.5 so 10-11 (possibly + 1 if Air secondary) SIZ 2D6+6 = average is 13 then -2 = 11 (possibly + 1 if Darkness secondary) INT 2D6+6 = average is 13 then +2 = 15 Impala cultural weapons, Self or Composite bow (depending on STR), darts, shortsword (no requirements) Ostrich cultural weapons, 1 Handed spear (lance), War boomerang, shortsword (no requirements) Bolo riders (primary rune Earth, secondary & tertiary is any) STR 3D6 = average is 10.5 so 10-11 (possibly + 1 if Air secondary) SIZ 2D6+6 = average is 13 then -2 = 11 (possibly + 1 if Darkness secondary) CON 3D6 = average is 10.5 so 10-11 then +2 = 12-13 Bolo cultural weapons Bolas, darts, shortsword (no requirements) I cheated though and made a handy praxian calculator: Edited January 1, 2019 by David Scott corrected cut and paste errors Quote ----- Search the Glorantha Resource Site: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com. Search the Glorantha mailing list archives: https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 (edited) Thanks! So now we know how big they are. Edited January 1, 2019 by Atgxtg Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted January 1, 2019 Share Posted January 1, 2019 22 minutes ago, David Scott said: The NPC calculations for the prax book are currently Impala & Ostrich riders (primary rune Fire, secondary & tertiary is any) STR 3D6 = average is 10.5 so 10-11 (possibly + 1 if Air secondary) SIZ 2D6+6 = average is 11 then -2 = 9 (possibly + 1 if Darkness secondary) INT 2D6+6 = average is 11 then +2 = 13 INT 2d6+6 averages 13, making 15 with Rune Affinity bonus. And for completion's sake, DEX 3d6+2 = average 12.5 so 12-13 (possibly +1 if water secondary). I gather. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord High Munchkin Posted January 2, 2019 Author Share Posted January 2, 2019 (edited) But since we know from the GtG that Impala riders have a "near maximum" SIZ of around 7-8 (to quote page 26: "Adult men are typically less than 4 feet 11 inches tall and women no more than 4 feet 8 inches") how is that going to happen with -2 SIZ on 2D6+6? With Air secondary that means a rolled possibility of Impala riders being 6'4" tall - not really very pygmy. Hmmm... as to whether Errinoru Pygmies have the primary rune Fire things get murky. Edit: I'm referencing the SIZ table on p. 52 in the Rulebook to get that 6'4", at maximum 17 SIZ possible, as rollable on 2D6+6 with -2, and the additional Air rune +1. Edited January 2, 2019 by Lord High Munchkin Clarification Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilHibbs Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 What about species maximum? Should those be affected by the tribal modifiers? This is an open question to anyone. I think it probably should be affected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atgxtg Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 4 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said: What about species maximum? Should those be affected by the tribal modifiers? This is an open question to anyone. I think it probably should be affected. I think it should too. In fact ir might have to. Otherwise there might be someone with a large enough plus to a stat who ends up rolling a number higher than the species max? Quote Chaos stalks my world, but she's a big girl and can take of herself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilHibbs Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 25 minutes ago, Atgxtg said: I think it should too. In fact ir might have to. Otherwise there might be someone with a large enough plus to a stat who ends up rolling a number higher than the species max? Not possible so long as the modifiers are only +/-2, but it does make a difference with rune bonuses. SIZ 18, +2 for Bison Rider, +2 for Darkness Rune, is over normal species maximum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kloster Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 21 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said: Not possible so long as the modifiers are only +/-2, but it does make a difference with rune bonuses. SIZ 18, +2 for Bison Rider, +2 for Darkness Rune, is over normal species maximum. This is not a problem because +2 for Bison is not above species max and Rune modifiers are described as being able to go above (RQG p54). Kloster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Scott Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 7 hours ago, Lord High Munchkin said: But since we know from the GtG that Impala riders have a "near maximum" SIZ of around 7-8 (to quote page 26: "Adult men are typically less than 4 feet 11 inches tall and women no more than 4 feet 8 inches") how is that going to happen with -2 SIZ on 2D6+6? With Air secondary that means a rolled possibility of Impala riders being 6'4" tall - not really very pygmy. Seeing as this is just about creating player characters and you get to choose your runes, a 6' 4" pygmy is a great character. So how does this work in a game? there is a back door in Praxian culture for those who literally don't fit in. Pygmy tribes are going to have the problem of the occasional large child who will never be ride their tribal mounts. Likewise being small is a problem is a tribe with large herd beasts. They get adopted by another tribe usually by the mediation of the Paps, less normally left with an oasis group and then enslaved, unusually sold off or enslaved to another tribe / outsider. But this is going to be rare stuff, the stuff of stories. Another alternative is that they are adopted by the Unicorn tribe, who accept those that don't fit or follow praxian social norms. As an aside, I roll average dice for NPCs or just use average stats. The Adventurers section in RQG is just that - for creating adventurers, not everything that applies to Adventurers applies to NPCs. Quote ----- Search the Glorantha Resource Site: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com. Search the Glorantha mailing list archives: https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Scott Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said: What about species maximum? Should those be affected by the tribal modifiers? This is an open question to anyone. I think it probably should be affected. No, @Jason Durall has already covered this: Quote ----- Search the Glorantha Resource Site: https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com. Search the Glorantha mailing list archives: https://glorantha.steff.in/digests/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilHibbs Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 3 hours ago, Kloster said: This is not a problem because +2 for Bison is not above species max and Rune modifiers are described as being able to go above (RQG p54). Kloster I can't find that on p54, but there is this on p52 in the box: Quote The combination of a Rune and a Homeland characteristic modifier cannot increase a characteristic to above the species maximum, so any points above the maximum are ignored. So that's already settled, no it does not increase (or decrease) your species maximum. It just seemed a little unintuitive to me that a pygmy could train up their SIZ to 21. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 51 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said: I can't find that on p54, but there is this on p52 in the box: So that's already settled, no it does not increase (or decrease) your species maximum. It just seemed a little unintuitive to me that a pygmy could train up their SIZ to 21. Though you can't train SIZ in any usual way... Also, you could think of it as not to do with their potential in the first place, it's just that small people stay in the tribe (or can get adopted in), while the larger specimens go out-tribe: it's the average size of the tribe member (who are all just normal humans), rather than the average size of a special 'breed'. I'd be inclined to be a bit wider in the application of such modifiers: a Farmer, for example, is very likely to be more muscular than a Scribe, just from what they do all day. I'd think about applying a strength modifier as part of some Occupations, potentially, if I was starting Chargen mechanics from scratch, and Homelands would also potentially have more and different modifiers: they'd count as 'points already trained', rather than as part of the dice roll (which is what determines the racial max). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kloster Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 57 minutes ago, PhilHibbs said: I can't find that on p54, but there is this on p52 in the box: You're right. I should have slept a few hours more. Page 54 allows above 18, not above max species value. Kloster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PhilHibbs Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, womble said: Though you can't train SIZ in any usual way... The rules don't say anything about what characteristics can't be trained. All the old RQ3 rules about DEX*1.5, and STR&CON to the highest (or was it lowest?) of STR, CON, SIZ are gone. I guess it's up to GM's judgement how far a pygmy can "beefcake" their SIZ, and what the negative consequences would be. Edited January 2, 2019 by PhilHibbs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted January 2, 2019 Share Posted January 2, 2019 1 hour ago, PhilHibbs said: The rules don't say anything about what characteristics can't be trained. All the old RQ3 rules about DEX*1.5, and STR&CON to the highest (or was it lowest?) of STR, CON, SIZ are gone. I guess it's up to GM's judgement how far a pygmy can "beefcake" their SIZ, and what the negative consequences would be. Nope. p418 Quote Other Characteristic Increase STR, CON, DEX, and CHA can be increased through training or research with gamemaster approval. The methods of increasing each characteristic vary, from physical training or conditioning (STR, CON, DEX) to focus on becoming more appealing to others (CHA). DEX is limited to the adventurer’s starting DEXÅ~1.5, or the species maximum, whichever is lower. INT and SIZ cannot be increased through non-magical means. All still there. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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