Daka Fal and Grandfather Mortal

[Sir_Godspeed]

Just some simple questions - but I'm reading the Sourcebook more thoroughly now, and I've read that the God Learners thought these to be the same, right? Before and after assuming control of a part of the Underworld and guiding/judging the dead?

The Praxians worship him (I assume, he's a part of their pantheon at any rate), and say that he came in the Gray Age to separate the living from the dead. Do the Orlanthi/Heortlings have any similar stories, or did other entities perform that task? (Orlanth, Issaries, Ernalda).

Is Daka Fal the Judge of the Dead in Orlanthi mythology as well? Does he have an (expressed as opposed to implied) relation to Ty Kora Tek?

Is he considered an ancestor, or is the identification between Grandfather Mortal and Daka Fal considered obscure by most modern Orlanthi?

According to the Sourcebook, Grandfather Mortal, after he was killed, became a king in the Underworld. I'm guessing this is partially to explain why Trolls (Man-Rune Darkness beings) exist. Is this just a God Learner synthetic theory, or is a belief that trolls also have? Do they consider him an ancestor, or mate of Kyger Litor? Why couldn't he join them in their passage up from Wonderhome when the Sun fell and scorched it lifeless? I understand he was "dead", but there were already ghosts abound. Did he choose to stay?

Cheers.

[Leingod]

Found this: http://glorantha.temppeli.org/digest/gd/2006.03/1790.html

Quote

Daka Fal, as I understand it, played a specific part in helping the Praxians to survive the end of the Great Darkness and the Dawn, and is identified in Praxian Ancestor worship mostly because of that. As Greg said, the association of Daka Fal/Grandfather Mortal with the Man rune makes him the de facto source of all human (or humanoid?) ancestor worship, but not necessarily named or specifically venerated by other cultures within their own ancestor worship.

It is my understanding however that Daka Fal is worshipped, or at least recognised, more broadly as the Judge of the Dead.

I think that means that the Orlanthi probably recognize him in his role as the Judge of the Dead, and God Learner influence may connect him to Grandfather Mortal, but they probably don't put much emphasis on his worship as their ancestor the way the Praxians do.

I'm not sure whether or not Grandfather Mortal is the ancestor of the Trolls; some might claim so, but the Darkness/Troll pantheon doesn't always need two to tango.

[Oracle]

3 hours ago, Sir_Godspeed said:

...
Is Daka Fal the Judge of the Dead in Orlanthi mythology as well? Does he have an (expressed as opposed to implied) relation to Ty Kora Tek?

Is he considered an ancestor, or is the identification between Grandfather Mortal and Daka Fal considered obscure by most modern Orlanthi?
...

According to HeroQuest Glorantha, p.69, The Fate of the Dead: An Orlanthi View

Quote

...
The crowd is silent, each awaiting their turn. At the front of the hall is the throne of Daka Fal, Judge of the Dead. He used
to be Grandfather Mortal, the first person to be made and the first person to die.
...

From the The Book of Heortling Mythology, p.58, The Court of Silence

Quote

...
At the front of the hall is the throne of Darhudan Judge of the Dead. He used to be Grandfather Mortal, the first person to be made and the first person to die.
...

Daka Fal = Grandfather Mortal
Darhudan = Grandfather Mortal
Daka Fal = Darhudan = Grandfather Mortal

So, yes, Daka Fal is the Judge of the Dead in Orlanthi mythology. And he has been Grandfather Mortal, before he died and became Daka Fal/Darhudan.

If he's called Daka Fal or Darhudan depends on regional influences/histories/myths probably.

[scott-martin]

47 minutes ago, Leingod said:

I'm not sure whether or not Grandfather Mortal is the ancestor of the Trolls; some might claim so, but the Darkness/Troll pantheon doesn't always need two to tango.

Kyger Litor had to couple with Man Rune for trolls to happen. Where else would Subere get it?

[womble]

1 hour ago, scott-martin said:

Kyger Litor had to couple with Man Rune for trolls to happen. Where else would Subere get it?

Wouldn't it be Subere coupling with Granpa Mortal to get Kyger Litor (and thence all Uzdom)?

[scott-martin]

32 minutes ago, womble said:

Wouldn't it be Subere coupling with Granpa Mortal to get Kyger Litor (and thence all Uzdom)?

There are many approaches to KL but as an outsider I imprinted on the synoptic RQ3 version, she is the old Dark that became important when she stepped forward to mate with Man for her mistress. If I were to speculate further on the deep dark relationships I'd probably do them a disservice and hasten a bad end.

[davecake]

Daka Fal and Darhudan are considered effectively different names for the same entity by those who are familiar with both names, but there probably aren't many who would be. A Praxian who made it over to Kralorela would also probably recognise Ebe as another name for the same being, and in turn a Kralorelan who made it to the East Isles would probably recognise Iste as another name for Ebe.

There are lots of active Daka Fal worshippers in Prax, who revere their ancestors through shamanic worship, while most ancestor worship in Sartar occurs more as a part of pantheon worship ceremonies and there are few dedicated worshippers, so Darhudan is a known entity in myth but that has relatively few direct adherents in Sartar. 

Note that there is relatively little reason for ancestor worshippers to gather or interact with one another outside their own lineage, so these questions probably come up very little outside those times when two ancestor worshipper lineages from different cultures intermarry, which I can't imagine is common. Most ancestor worship is a family affair that you don't talk to outsiders about much. 

[soltakss]

On 1/22/2019 at 3:55 PM, Sir_Godspeed said:

Just some simple questions - but I'm reading the Sourcebook more thoroughly now, and I've read that the God Learners thought these to be the same, right? Before and after assuming control of a part of the Underworld and guiding/judging the dead?

The God Learners say that when Grandfather Mortal was killed, he went to the Realms of the Dead and became the Judge of the Dead.

On 1/22/2019 at 7:07 PM, Leingod said:

I'm not sure whether or not Grandfather Mortal is the ancestor of the Trolls; some might claim so, but the Darkness/Troll pantheon doesn't always need two to tango.

The Trolls say so. Kyger Litor was the Mother of the Trolls and one of her husbands was Grandfather Mortal. Whether they created trolls using magic, by using the power of the Man Run, or by getting jiggy with each other is pretty unimportant, really. Trolls are one of the peoples acknowledged to be descended from Grandfather Mortal.

22 hours ago, womble said:

Wouldn't it be Subere coupling with Granpa Mortal to get Kyger Litor (and thence all Uzdom)?

Kyger Litor is not a descendant of Grandfather Mortal. She is not, herself, an UzUz, she is the Mother of Trolls.