RQ3 Sorcery - what's wrong with it?

[Guest Vile Traveller]

We've all hard many times that RQ3 sorcery is broken, and that there are some fixes out there. I have only a little experience with sorcery RAW, but we didn't come across any serious issues - it's possible we weren't playing it right, but it seemed to work okay. I've never used any of the fixes like Sandy's Sorcery (never could get into Malkionism, so it didn't make it into any of the games I played or ran). So, my question to the floor is two-fold:

1: What exactly is wrong with sorcery as written; and

2: What do the internet fixes "fix"?

[NickMiddleton]

Mechanically, the only serious issue we ever had was Free INT - A complete novice with say 15% in some Sorcery skills and a couple of spells can do MORE with their spells than a more experienced Sorcerer with say 55% in their skills and half a dozen spells, as the later (absent any items) has less Free INT to manipulate their spells with...

One can criticise the way the manipulations scale, and the overall utility of the system for typical adventurers but these are more flavour problems than systemic, and I found they were all (to a degree) addressed by the same fix: get rid of Free INT. Limit Manipulations by skill / 5 (for powerful Sorcery) or skill /10 for moderated sorcery. So a Palsy skill of 66% allows a total of either 14 or 7 levels of manipulation: if the casters Range skill is 24%, their Duration is 32% and their Intensity 49% they can apply up to 5 (3) levels of Range, up to 7 (4) levels of Duration and up to 10 (5) levels of Intensity - but whatever combination they choose cannot in total exceed 14 (7) levels of manipulation.

There are more extensive fixes: Dave Cake had a set I remember rating quite highly a few years back; Sandy Petersen wrote a comprehensive revision the entire RQIII magic rules that's generally very well regarded.

Cheers,

Nick

[Atgxtg]

I agree with Nick. The major problem was Free INT. Since Free INT was INT-Spells known, novices were capable of very powerful magic, when they made their cast rolls. Experienced magi did have ways to store spells "out of mind" but even so, a guy with a 18 INT would always be able to cast more powerful magic than one with a 13 INT and lots of skill. As INT is one of the few stats that can't be trained up, this caps a sorcerers ability heavily based upon one random roll.

The best fix for this, IMO, is to link Intensity and other spell manipulations to skill rather than Free INT. Sandy Peterson did that, as did Nick in a houserule.

Minor issues with Sorcery revolve around the steeper learning curve compared to the other magic systems, and it effect on a point-for-point basis. Overall, sorcery spells and weaker that spirit or divine magic on a per point basis, but make up for it in terms of flexibility and customization. Given enough time and MP, a sorcerer can set up magical effects that the others can't even dream of.

[RosenMcStern]

Disclaimer: I have played and run about 10 hi-level sorcerous characters with those rules, before trying variants, so I am deeply aware that I know the Rules-As-Written of RQ3 Sorcery very well - and I will argue strongly about them. Reply at your own risk.

The observations made so far are all correct. Free INT as a concept is unfair, and not the best idea in game design.

However, the basic problem is in fact another.

A RQ3 sorcerer is not meant to be generated by simply adding percentiles to skills and expecting that everything works. Exactly like a RQ3 shaman. The idea is that you start as an underling and ramp your character up to the higher levels, either through play or by means of running character generation as a mini-game à la Traveller. And this is FUN.

Once you have done it the right way, you will discover that INT and Free INT are false problems. A couple INT spirits are enough to store all of your spells without worrying about Free INT any more, even if you lack a familiar. Each INT spirit costs 2 POW to make, and as a sorcerer you will gain POW often. So, let us archive the Free INT problem: you spend 4 POW and it is no longer a problem. Now you can cast magic with greater effectiveness than that newbie.

However, when you want to keep spells going for a long time, the problem is not Free INT, it is magic points. You can make as many long duration spells as you want, but you need the mana. Thus you need POW spirits, a lot of them, and matrices.

I think you have all understood where this is heading. There IS a difference between the Adept and the Apprentice, but it is not based on skill. It is based on magice items already enchanted. If you have enchanted your way to high Free INT and high Mana, you rule. The drawback is that you are reliant on magic items. Lose them, and you are ****ed up.

Note that using Skill/10 or Skill/5 instead of free INT does not solve the problem completely. You are still dependent on magic items for mana.

So the real problem is that playing a RQ3 sorcerer is fun, but you will play as a guy who is always scared of losing his magic items. This could, of course, lead you to running the adventure as someone who stays in his tower and only interacts through sense projection. Sounds rather Sauron-like, doesn't it?

[Atgxtg]

Once you have done it the right way, you will discover that INT and Free INT are false problems.

NOT true!

While Spirits and items will help to free up an experienced magi's INT. They can't give the mage INT that he doesn't already have, and that is not a false problem. A guy with a 10 INT is truly hampered in the power and complexity of his spells, and always will be. No amount of training and experience , or items will ever change that.

A couple INT spirits are enough to store all of your spells without worrying about Free INT any more

Nope. You spells are still going to be capped by your INT stat.

The problem isn't that experienced magi can't free up their full INT, they can do so quite easily by creating a familiar. The problem is that the magi are capped by their INT stat and there is nothing they can do about it. The other magical traditions are not hamstringed like that. They have ways of progressing beyond their limits. But not sorcery. It is somewhat ironic considering that sorcery in Glorantha is all about progressing beyond one's limits.

Edited October 30, 2012 by Atgxtg

[Guest Vile Traveller]

Hmm. It sounds pretty fixable to me. Is this a case of nothing much being wrong with RQ3, so the things that are wrong get more exposure? Because I've always had the impression that most comments about RQ3 sorcery paint it as essentially unusable.

Rosen, my limited experience with sorcery has been similar to what you describe - one of my players had an apprentice whom she brought up through the ranks to a fair level of power, and that was quite a fun campaign. I don't remember if we had Free INT problems, to be exact. But it does sound like something that could be dropped without adverse consequences.

As regards magic item dependency, that is relatively common in RQ as in other games. I'm comfortable with that.

[deleriad]

RQ3 sorcery is not unusable as written, especially if you use the errata Chaosium provided. What it does is to provide a very, very narrow bunch of options. On the basis of running an Ars Magica style troupe campaign for several years the main issues with sorcery for me were.

Book-keeping. There is a lot to track as a player of a sorcerer and even more as a GM. In actual play as a GM you end up pretty much hand-waving every NPC sorcerer.

Scope. The interaction between manipulation and spell list means that by far the most efficient use of sorcerer is to buff up warriors to extreme levels.

Magic item dependency. This is pretty much a deal-breaker for me these days. Because sorcery is so MP hungry every master sorcerer is really the sum of their magic items.

Untested spells. The spell list in general is all over the place and some of it, creating familiars in particular, appears to provide the opposite result to what you would think it would do.

I found that if you were prepared to make sorcery the focus of the campaign and use a troupe set up with a Pendragon style focus on integrating adventures with the seasons and domain management then you can use the system. At which point you realise, as we did, you know what, RQ3 sorcery's main problem is that it is dull. There is no sense of magic about it. It is like Battle Magic amplified. After about 2 years we switched to a variant of Sandy Peterson's system and things were suddenly far more interesting.

[RosenMcStern]

While Spirits and items will help to free up an experienced magi's INT. They can't give the mage INT that he doesn't already have, and that is not a false problem. A guy with a 10 INT is truly hampered in the power and complexity of his spells, and always will be. No amount of training and experience , or items will ever change that.

It all boils down to whether you wish to allow an INT 10 character to be a competent sorcerer. Personally, I would not want such a thing in my game.

The point is that RQ3 sorcery is NOT unusable. It works. It is just that - like it happens with Armour Class in D&D - there would be many other ways to do the same thing with better (and maybe simpler) rules.

[seneschal]

Sounds like those sorcerers are like superheroes (or villains) who depend on their gadgets. Take away the powered armor, the freeze ray gun, the rocket-powered roller skates, etc., and the character loses his powers. However, the authorities (and fairy tale dungeon keepers) are always complacent once they've tossed the Our Heroes (or the Big Bad) into the pokey. The magic lamp, ring of invisibility, atomic pogo stick is always left in plain sight -- on a shelf or in a display case -- possibly guarded but maybe not. After all, its former user is locked up tight. What could possibly go wrong?

[Atgxtg]

It all boils down to whether you wish to allow an INT 10 character to be a competent sorcerer. Personally, I would not want such a thing in my game.

The problem is the player doesn't get a choice. With all the other magical traditions, in fact with pretty much any other aspect of the game, a character can improve over time. A guy with a low POW can, theoretically, build it up over time. But a sorcerer can't improve his INT, and everything is depenat upon that INT stat. And since your starting magic is based upon your culture, the player really doesn't have much choice.

We just don;t have that kind of absolute restriction anywhere else in the game.

The point is that RQ3 sorcery is NOT unusable. It works. It is just that - like it happens with Armour Class in D&D - there would be many other ways to do the same thing with better (and maybe simpler) rules.

Agreed, it works. In fact, I'd say it works pretty well, up to a point. RQ3 sorcerers have a degree of flexibility with thier spells that wasn't surpassed until Ars Magica (RQ3 Lunar Magic worked even better and might be too good) . It's FreeINT that causes most of the problems. Using INT as an absolute cap was, IMO, one of the things that RQ3 did not improve over RQ2.

But I used to have a lot of fun with the Sorcery system. I used to love putting up long term spells. There were a number of times where 1 measly point of damage resistance, kept up as a precaution, saved a character's life.

As far as getting enough MPs go, it depends on how common magic items are in a campaign. In Glorantha, POW storing crystals were fairly common pretty much every experience PC wold up with one or two, and it would be easy for a sorcerer to collect a half dozen or so. Stafford knows there was at least one such crystal in just about every RQ2 adventure.

[soltakss]

Our RQ3 sorcerers quickly became Enchanters. First, they bound INT Spirits, as described above. Then they made Sorcery Matrices, which gave them a higher starting point and allowed them to manipulate the spells further. Finally, they attuned Crystals that gave them an edge (Enhancing Crystals work with sorcery in my games).

Even as written they work reasonably well.

But, getting rid of Free INT and using a skill-based limit works even better.

Personally, I'd have RQ3 Sorcerers spend POW to increase their Sorcerous Limits, so spending 10 POW on Manipulate allows the sorcerer to cast up to Venom 10, for example. That way, POW is a feeder for all the magic systems, with the possible exception of Spirit Magic, although Shamans put POW into their Fetches.

Spirit Magic: POW Increases a Fetch's POW

Divine Magic: POW is spent to gain magic

Sorcery: POW used to increase Sorcery Limits

Enchantment: POW is used to create Enchantments

Summoning/Ceremony - ????

[Atgxtg]

Hmm. It sounds pretty fixable to me. Is this a case of nothing much being wrong with RQ3, so the things that are wrong get more exposure? Because I've always had the impression that most comments about RQ3 sorcery paint it as essentially unusable.

Oh, it's playable and fixable. It's got a few flaws but it's nothing fatal. Most of us seem to have had problems with FreeINT, but there was a fix for it. And FreeINT could be replaced with another limiting mechanic if desired.

IMO, there really wasn't much "wrong" with RQ3. It is a fairly solid rpg. Most of the complaints that I recall about the game mechanics, were not so much that things didn't work, but that some bits required too much bookkeeping (the fatigue system was probably the most unpopular bit in the rules.), or that RQ2 did some things better.

Frankly the bulk of complaints about RQ3 weren't about the game system but about price and support. RQ3 considerably more than RQ2 did. RQ2 had built up a nice head of stream for Glorantha, and it took awhile for RQ3 to start printing substantial Glorantha stuff. A lot of the RQ3 Glorantha stuff was reprinted RQ2 stuff.

[Guest Vile Traveller]

I actually like the fact the RQ3 sorcerors are de facto enchanters, I think it serves to differentiate the system not only from divine and spirit magic but also from most other RPGs I've played. The various iterations of D&D have always treated enchantment as a bolted-on afterthought, which strikes me as odd for a game with such a plethora of magic items. If anything, I'd like to investigate that avenue further. One RQ2 artifice I never liked was the Rune Magic matrix creation spell, it just seemed a bit bland to me.

[Nightshade]

Just as a comment, the biggest problems we had with Sorcerers were actually wrapped around Duration; the progressive duration system made it possible to relatively painlessly spend a few days down during downtime building boost spells of very long duration. Yes this required a rather intelligent and skilled sorcerer to do it well, but you only needed one of those for it to become problematic.

Naturally, the easy fix was to get rid of the long term durations, but that also got rid of some more reasonable uses. In the end the latter were probably not worth the problems with the long durations.

[Guest Vile Traveller]

I found the way (or should I say a way) to deal with that was simply to increase the cost of adding duration, which made the decision of where to spend the power, time and cash more important while still allowing the cool factor of, say, a de facto permanently flying sorceror (made sense for her, as she was lame).

[d_ns]

Since we are hashing out RQ III Sorcery, can anyone tell me how Summoning ritual skill interacts with Summoning (Species) spell skill?

[Psychman]

Since we are hashing out RQ III Sorcery, can anyone tell me how Summoning ritual skill interacts with Summoning (Species) spell skill?

My recollection is that you have to roll once and succeed in both skills, so the higher skill is limited by the lower. The spell I suppose represents the specifics of summoning the species, the summoning ritual your skill/technique in the actual rituals.

[Aycorn]

I think frankly one of the biggest problems with it was that it was not especially well-explained. It needed to be written in a more idiot-proof manner. The original published rules weren't clear, and Sandy's web-published rules were somewhat sketchily-written. I had to read it very closely to really understand how it worked. They are great ideas, though.

[d_ns]

My recollection is that you have to roll once and succeed in both skills, so the higher skill is limited by the lower. The spell I suppose represents the specifics of summoning the species, the summoning ritual your skill/technique in the actual rituals.

That feels logical, but I'll be damned if I can find so much as an example that implies it, let alone an actual rule. Cormac's character sheet has him with "Summon POW Spirit" equal to his skill with the Summoning ritual, instead of POWX5 + Magic Bonus, so I think you're on to something.

[SDLeary]

That feels logical, but I'll be damned if I can find so much as an example that implies it, let alone an actual rule. Cormac's character sheet has him with "Summon POW Spirit" equal to his skill with the Summoning ritual, instead of POWX5 + Magic Bonus, so I think you're on to something.

p. 94 (softbound) Common Magical Procedures: Spells: Types of Spells

Ritual Spell: Such a spell can only be used during a ritual (see the Ritual Magic chapter) and can not be cast at any other time. These spells direct and define the ritual. The description of a ritual spell specifies the type of ritual with which the spell must be used, and a specific spell will not work with any other type of ritual. The magician's skill at casting these spells is always equal to his percentage in the specified ritual, ...

Learning of the specific spells is essentially learning the differences needed in the various summonings, so I would not require points to be put into the separate skills... unless I was in an evil mood.

SDLeary

[d_ns]

p. 94 (softbound) Common Magical Procedures: Spells: Types of Spells

Learning of the specific spells is essentially learning the differences needed in the various summonings, so I would not require points to be put into the separate skills... unless I was in an evil mood.

SDLeary

Thanks! That does definitely explain a few things. Except why you'd ever "study up" a Summon (Species) spell as a sorcerer. If the skill is always equal to the ritual, why increase the spell percentage?

[SDLeary]

Thanks! That does definitely explain a few things. Except why you'd ever "study up" a Summon (Species) spell as a sorcerer. If the skill is always equal to the ritual, why increase the spell percentage?

You wouldn't. You'd go thru the initial time to learn it as defined in the Sorcery section, and then leave it. If you haven't gone thru the initial learning phase, then you don't know the specifics to summon a particular type of being/spirit/etc.

Now, if we wanted to modify this a bit, Summon could be a Hard skill to learn (+1d3 skill point per successful skill check after research time). The general skill would be able to summon beings with varying difficulties to the skill. Each spell for creature type could then function as a modifier that would make it easier to summon that type.

Another option would be similar to Pendragon, where different types of creatures cost more MP to summon. Perhaps in this case, it could be X + MP of summoned creature, or some such.

SDLeary

[d_ns]

You wouldn't. You'd go thru the initial time to learn it as defined in the Sorcery section, and then leave it. If you haven't gone thru the initial learning phase, then you don't know the specifics to summon a particular type of being/spirit/etc.

That's understandable, it's just surprising that a system that expects one to expand one's skill with individual spells (like Sorcery) would be designed to use the same Ritual Skills at the expense of it's own skill system.

Does lend some validity to the RQII/Legend system (and maybe earlier) by which you gain skill percentages in your Grimoire, which impacts all of the related spells, including summoning spells.

[RosenMcStern]

That's understandable, it's just surprising that a system that expects one to expand one's skill with individual spells (like Sorcery) would be designed to use the same Ritual Skills at the expense of it's own skill system.

I do not see the point. In RQ3 Sorcery, you have "action" spells that you cast at the specific spell level, and ritual spells that you cast at your ritual skill. Basically, you learn them at a discount, as your skill is good for several spells at a time.

As for the difference in cost, this is already present in the RQ3 rules. When you summon something, you have to spend MP equal to the entity's MP, or the thing will not come (unless it is some monstrosity who actually wishes to "meet" you). Thus, in order to cast Summon Bad Man, you have to spend 35 Magic Points. Better have some matrices ready.

[d_ns]

I do not see the point. In RQ3 Sorcery, you have "action" spells that you cast at the specific spell level, and ritual spells that you cast at your ritual skill. Basically, you learn them at a discount, as your skill is good for several spells at a time.

As for the difference in cost, this is already present in the RQ3 rules. When you summon something, you have to spend MP equal to the entity's MP, or the thing will not come (unless it is some monstrosity who actually wishes to "meet" you). Thus, in order to cast Summon Bad Man, you have to spend 35 Magic Points. Better have some matrices ready.

I guess I just would have preferred a different wording or a different mechanic, but considering now that they also, potentially, impact free INT/max spells/manipulations, it might be valid to say "Your Summoning Ritual is 88%, so you're quite good at it, even though your Summon (Healing Spirit) is only 8%"