DrGoth

I'm just running off the RQG definitions (p101) Villager - usually fewer than 100 Town - larger than a village, 300-1000 Obviously there are settlements in the range 100-300. But if you have a settlement of 300-400 that's a town. And most clans don't have those. In rural clans you have half in villages, half in steads (that's what Jeff said, it looks right to me, and I'm happy tog with it). So that means a clan of 800 would have 400 people in all of its villages. I;d see it as maybe 150 in the central village, than the remaining 250 split between 2 or 3 other villages.

I can understand why RQG simplified things that way. You could always introduce subrunes into your Glorantha if you think it gave flavour that works for you and your group.

I've always thought of the stereotypical BG cultist as someone who experiences great loss. BUt ther emust be many other types as well. Including those who are called at initiation, because that's the right thing for them.

Fair enough, but that still leaves me asking how the 30k+ people (which I think is still the canon figure) are split between the Alda-churi tribes.

Continuing my investigation of the Far Place... I'm trying to match https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=10158991363789017&set=gm.2079906742185314 and its extract https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/the-far-place/ with https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/the-tribes-of-sartar-1625-1626/ Versus the information in Wyrms Footnotes 15 (yes, I know its canonicity is questionable) Specifically, I'm looking at matching the clans on the clan maps to the tribes. The tribe boundaries on the two maps are similar but don't quite match. I'm assuming the well of daliath tribal map is more accurate than the WF15 one (p.31), especially as it matches more closely with the clan maps. For example, the elbow angle of the border of the Tanzarsk (sp?), the point of which lies on Jerra Hil. That matches with the Daliath tribal map and puts that clan firmly in the Vantaros. The Engol would also be in Tantaros, as would the Barley's Valley clan, as Alda-chur lies in their lands. However, there is no line on the clan map that matches neatly with the Vantaros-Princeros border on the Daliath tribal map. Also, at best, I can find five clans that lie in the Princeros lands (Sharl, Wild Bull, Mule Deer, Lanceros and Sidask (sp?)). And the Sidask lands seem to run right up to Alda-chur, which might mean they are Vantaros, not Princeros. But according to WF15 the Princeros have 8 clans, not 4-5. And are 10,000 strong. which means if they do have 4-5 clans, they are very big clans. More generally, from the sketch map, I'm only seeing 16 clans for the Princeros Vantaros and Tovtaros. Here's my guesses, based on the Daliath tribal map of which tribe for them Princeros Sharl Wild Bull Lanceros Sidask (sp) (and maybe they are Vantaros) Mule deer Vantaros Barley's Valley Bright Spear Gold Helm Engol Tanzarsk (sp) Dwarf Friend Tovtaros Brown Bear Haladon Orlinim Ulandring Blue Fort That gives them five (Tovtaros), six (Vantaros), five (Princeros), where WF 15 has Tovtaros 3, Vantaros 8 and Princeros 8 (19 clans). There could be one unnamed clan south of the Barley's Valley clan. The Daliath tribal map puts that area in the Vantaros and there is a small circle for a settlement, but there's no clan name. That would give the Vantaros 7 clans, very close to the WF15 number. Eight, if the Sidask are actually Vantaros. That the Tovtaors have 5 clans were WF15 said three is neither here nor there - 800 people per clan seems better for them anyway. But that would all leave the Princeros at 10,000 people and four clans. Which seems odd. The tribe sizes from WF15 are Tovtaros 4,000 , Vantaros 9.500 and Princeros 10,000, which match with the population for the Far Place from, eg, the guide and https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/the-far-place/, which gives the population around Alda-Chur as 31000 (which includes the Dinacoli and Alda-chur itself). The Amad, Bachad and Tres match up better between the various sources, but not perfectly Amad Wahote Pathrand (sp?) Sarnak Tres Kalintor Skase Agwari Bachad Flint Golden Poppy Turtle That's nine clans, which is what WF15 gives them, but WF15 has the Amad at two clans and the Bachad at 4 clans. the difference there would seem to be the Sarnak, which the Daliath tribal map puts firmly in Amad lands when compared to the map from facebook. But my real question is around the current canon numbers for tribal populations and clan numbers for the Princeros, Vantaros and Tovtaros. Do we know how they stack up? The biggest issue seems to be the Princeros, whose possibly 4 clans and 10,000 people seems a mismatch.

RQG (p.101) has "A village is a small settlement, usually with fewer than 100 inhabitants." I doubt there's real gap between steads and villages, with settlements of any size up to 100-120 found in rural areas. it does say 'usually' for that 100. So if (for sake of argument) we take things in multiplles of 20 (for ease) and take a village as being 80-120 and steads being less than that, we could have something like the following for a 1200 person clan. Half of them (600) live in villages. The main village, where the chief lives, has about 120 people. That leaves 480 for the other villages, probably 5-6 villages in the range of 80-100 people each. The remaining 600 live in steads, say 20-60 (average 40) people each. That would give about 15 steads. So for a 1200 person clan we have 6-7 villages, 15 steads. Hmm. I wonder if its the head of each settlement on the outer ring. Jeff - thanks for the information but there's one piece that I'm having trouble understanding. Unfree "Maybe one in ten people fall into this category". That's higher than I expected. Are those 10% all (or Orlanthi 'all' 😀) Sartarites? And is that 10% average tilted by the clans/tribes that keep thralls? If I assume yes to both questions, then maybe for clans that don't have thralls its 5%. But even that seems high to me. Because if my clan has 5% of its number as prisoners/captives/hostages, then so does every other clan - and they come from somewhere, including my clan. It would mean that, on an ongoing basis, 5% of the clan are elsewhere, held captive. Out of a 20 person household, it would be one member held that way all the time (on a rotating basis). if we assume that people get ransomed after at most (say) one year then in a 20 year period everyone on average gets captured. An Orlanthi could look forward to being held hostage roughly three times in their life. And spending three years of their life as a hostage. Of course, averages are misleading, and its more likely groups are taken together rather than one from each household. But then we get the following "Yes, grey bird stead has been empty for a year. Those rotten <insert enemy clan name here> captured them all in the raid last dark season. We're still getting the money together to pay the ransom. Now as soon as those useless <insert other enemy clan name here> pay the ransom for their people we took in fire season we'll be able to pay it." Of course, that would fit in with the constantly raiding and feuding Orlanthi, but I've never pictured clans as permanently having 5% or more of their members held as captives. Of course, the 10% might not be Sartarites. Praxians, Grazelanders and even Lunars (post 1625) are possible. But harder to get for those away from the borders and I've also never pictured 5-10% of the people in rural Sartar as non-Sartarite captives. Could I ask for some more clarification here?

BG didn't cut herself off from family - that's Humakt's area. So, on the model of cultists following in the path of their deity, a BG cultist won't be as isolated as a Humakti. Part of her is the protector, which implies some sort of bond with the protected. Humakt doesn't have that world view. And really, do we want the cults to mirror each other? 😄

Thanks Jeff (and all) A slight clarification on my part - when I was saying 'stead' I wasn't just thinking isolated farmhouses. I was thinking of small villages as well, made up of a few residences. Sorry. Is the longhouse a thing in Sartar? If so, is it only for the more isolated steads, or do they appear in the villages as well? What am I seeing (maybe only in my head 😉) is the the semi-free are still kin. Take an Orlanthi with three sons. The first may inherit the father's land and team. The family may have scrimped up enough to buy a team for the second son and have enough political capital to get him some land as well. But the third isn't so lucky, so has to either work for his brothers or someone else. Now, maybe his brothers really value kin, and scrimp up enough to eventually get a team for the third brother as well, allowing him to move up in the world. Does that sound plausible? Other ways I see people moving up are if they distinguish themselves in war (or even raiding). I am actually wondering how many isolated farmhouses there are. That isn't very good defensively. It would have to pose an easy target for raiders from other clans, non-humans or even broo (and other wandering chaos). It probably depends just how exposed you are. For the Colymar, who have a relatively safe area, spreading out might make enough economic sense (closer to where they need to be to work the fields) that the risk is worth it. Somewhere else (like, say the Princeros bordering Snakepipe) defensive considerations may outweigh economic. Their steads and villages might not just be larger on average but fortified as well. Actually, given all the non-humans around there, I wonder if that's generally true of the Far Place versus the rest of Sartar. A larger grouping, possibly even fortified, is much more defensible. I'm not talking huge, say 60 people. But there's a lot more warriors in that than in 20-25 people. If you look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neolithic_long_house (yes, I know, wikipedia, okay?) "Twenty or thirty people could have lived in each house, with villages composed typically of five to eight houses." Maybe a stead is a slightly smaller number. Again, I'm assuming longhouses are the thing, and about the same size as the neolithic ones. Even if not, the number of people in settlements still works. If the groupings are slightly larger it keeps the outer ring at a manageable size. Even in a 1200 person clan, if your steads/ villages run at 60-100 people you have maybe 20 in the outer ring. I'm assuming that the outer ring is composed of heads of 'families' which might mean about 60 people. But , again, that may vary even if different parts of Sartar. Regardless of that, I find it much more plausible that everyone lives in a stead or village as opposed to some of the semi-free in isolated cottages. Isolated cottages seem to be too easy for raiders ( see above) and harder to manage social transitions. Let alone the social isolation of those away from the steads/villages. So my take now is this. Everyone who lives rural lives in a stead or village. Maybe it's YGWV just what the minimum size of a stead is. That 'everyone' includes free and semifree. It's possible to move between classes, but it doesn't matter where you are on that scale, you're clan - you're kin. I do still wonder about the outer ring - if its based on heads of household and a household is 20-25, that's a lot of people in the outer ring in a 1000-1200 people clan.

I've been trying to get my head around some aspects of Orlanthi society. Specifically, stead organisation and the difference between what used to be called carls and cottars. I have looked at https://wellofdaliath.chaosium.com/world-building-glorantha/ where it says terms 'carls' and 'cottars' are no longer used. They did come with some particular baggage, so I can see that. My understanding is that (at least in Sartar) for Orlanthi living on the clan lands, most of them live in a stead. Which is centred on a longhouse. That is, shared accommodation for multiple nuclear families, who are related by blood. The head of a stead (used to be called a thane. is that gone with carl and cottar?) is an important person, maybe a member of the clan's outer ring. Within the clan there are those who (or whose head of family) own an ox-team (or half an ox-team) and are allocated land to plow and those that aren't. My understanding is that there are far more of the former (plow-men) than the latter (herders, stickpickers, crafters etc) If I'm wrong about any of that, happy to be corrected. My questions revolve around numbers, how they live and what social mobility there is. Let's take the social mobility first. Here's a (hopefully extreme) way to read some of the material: The owners of ox-teams (and their spouses and children) live in the steads, sharing the longhouse. The others live in (much more humble) cottages, separate from the steads. Membership of these groups is hereditary. I really hope that's not how it works, as that would rapidly lead to a heavily stratified society, with the lower levels perpetually locked out of any chance of improvement, effectively exiled from the steads, eking out an existence in small cottages, their children doomed to follow in their footsteps. It would be self-perpetuating. What plowman would want his daughter marrying one of them? So marriages would be within strata. It would almost be a caste-based society, with all that implies. Not what I think of when I consider "freedom loving Orlanthi". Another alternative is that it's not hereditary. You don't automatically follow in your parent's footsteps. Back in Sartar, Kingdom of Heroes, carls (I know, term gone) "own some military equipment". The implication I draw from that is that lower ranks don't. They are not part of the fighting force of the clan. So the situation could be more of a meritocracy, and that those that can fight and plow would be given land, regardless of their parents' rank. Similarly, the son of a plowman might find himself herding sheep if he couldn't fulfil the duties and obligations that went with holding land. The next area is about numbers. Clans in Sartar can number 1000-1200 or even more (adults plus children). If a typical stead numbers 20-25 people, that's lot of steads (up to 60 or more). That makes for a large outer ring. A stead might be larger - but that then makes for more people living under the one roof. How big are the longhouses and how many people do they hold? The other way to look at this is that 'stead' and 'longhouse' are not quite synonymous. That is, a stead might have more than one longhouse and/or residences in addition to the longhouse. So, to my actual questions: how many people live in each stead? and what does that mean for number of steads in a typical clan? how many people does a typical longhouse in Sartar hold? can there be more than one longhouse in a stead? are there residences in a stead separate to the longhouse(s)? if people live outside the longhouse, are they part of the stead or separate to it? if the social ranks of "owns a plow" and "doesn't own a plow" still hold, how is membership of those ranks determined? Is it hereditary, merit-based or something else? Is it only the "owns a plow" families who live in the stead/longhouse and the others live in cottages? (I know that's not either or, and could be a mix, but see the question about whether these extra residences are part of a stead or separate from it) if the "doesn't own a plow" rank is hereditary and those families don't live in the stead, does this mean we have a perpetual underclass in Orlanthi society? Anyway, if I have it all mixed up, happy to be corrected.

It was Dunstop, but I'm not sure of the date

I can see all that. But saying there is a conflict is very different to saying the cosmos is taking sides.

Sorry to Necro this, but I found a relevant quote the other day. Guide, p.160 "The God World cannot be reached physically. mortal worshippers reach it temporarily during Holy Day and Sacred Time ceremonies, and permanently upon death". Given the comment about death, I take the 'temporarily' to mean they get there but don't stay there. Now admittedly, it doesn't say "always" or "occasionally". But to me it's pretty clear that's what being said is that participants cross over, regularly at least. So I can't agree that usual Sacred Time is in-world. That quote from the guide says to me that the reverse is true - the usual Sacred Time experience is crossing over. Participants in sacred time rituals do regularly travel to the homes of the gods.

Just how much are the gold wheel dancers linked to the sun? they are gold wheel dancers, not sun wheel dancers. Yes, it is Sun Wheel ruins and gold is the sun's metal. But are they heavily solar linked?

The one bit I meet disagree with there is the holy day attendance, at least amongst theists (obviously). I suspect that is quite high across the board. The Gods are real and you need their protection. Better not slack off. While the real world middle ages aren't a direct analogy the vast majority of people attended the vast majority of festivals - one estimate is that you were expected (and did) turn up to church 90 days of the year. Those MP sacrifices count and you'd better show up!

Happy for Jeff to clarify, but I don't I don't see a lot of ambiguity in those quotes. It's pretty clear to me that Sedenya is part of the compromise after Castle Blue. I don't remember seeing anything saying the Hero Wars is about the cosmos rejecting Sedenya. it's a large series of magical conflicts. Yes, there might be those unhappy with the outcome of Castle Blue, but that's very different to the cosmos rejecting it. I have difficulty in seeing how the cosmos would reject it.

Castle Blue "The Natural Order had been torn by the fighting at Castle Blue, and after peace came again the universe was made whole once more by including the Red Goddess and her powers." Sourcebook p.159 "In 1245, a series of battles began which over the next two years tore the fabric of the real world raged about the magical Castle Blue on Lake Oronin. From this turmoil emerged the Red Goddess, intact and woven into the weave of the world. Since then the Red Goddess has been accepted as real and integral to the world of Glorantha." Guide p140-141 "The resultant battle of Castle Blue in 1246 forced the acceptance of the Red Goddess into the world as a deity. It was like an amendment to the Great Compromise." Guide, p.157 So, yes, Sedenya is now party to the Great Compromise.

Glorantha isn't the real world. That can't be said enough. Glorantha is a place where there are cosmic moral rules, even if we can't capture them properly. Many people still believe that this world has them to, but many people also do not. if you don't believe their are universal moral rules, you have to invent them. Glorantha ahs them. What are they? That's harder to answer. Chaos is slippery. The Red Goddess isn't 'evil'. Greg repeatedly said that the Lunars are not the bad guys. But he also said quite a few things about chaos. At least to me, that what causes chaos in Glorantha varies from society to society isn't moral relativism. It's that (like many things) how the rules of the cosmos apply isn't fixed and objective, at least to how mortals can understand it. Is it intent? It can be. Is it action? It can be. The closest I can come to it is that it depends on the cosmic compromise and how that get instantiated where you are. break the compromise, risk braking the world and you risk chaos. And remember, Sedenya is part of the compromise. Perhaps what is so shocking to other cultures is that the Lunars have proved you can do somethings with chaos and not risk the compromise. I don't think there's an answer to this question that fits with a 21st century humanist rationalist approach. We're talking completely different mindsets here.

Thinking about it in terms of devotion helps. Being devoted to that aspect of the world, if you can keep supporting it, why not?

I've always assumed that sort of thing was spirit magic. I seem to remember seeing something somewhere (yeah I know how specific and useful that is) that these are the sort of things most people (ie NPCs) actually sue spirit magic for.

It's what modern scholars, do sure. But in previous times? Not always so much. Remember Leonardo and mirror writing. Sometimes knowledge is hoarded, not shared.

The eassiest way would just be to up the number of enemies when needed. I haven't tried it, but I would think then it would run pretty much to normal. You'd even have the ability for Pcs to take different options, especially early on. You'd have to do something if any or all of the Pcs didn't want to be part of the cavalry. BUt even that would just have a few appropriate enemies, and then mounts on hand to get to the final confrontation.

Which to me gives you the one a stead idea (or an older one plus an assistant). That would cater for the numbers involved. In the RBopM the runes for it are earth and fertility. In theistic societies that don't worhsip Ernalda who would have it? Maybe Dendara for a start?

I love how things get necro'd on this forum. That's sincerely and honestly. All the necroing I've seen actually adds something useful and/or interesting to the discussion.

I'd go with what Jeff said about Ban.

I'd be a little surprised if this was possible. Clans that were feuding forced to adhere to outlawry proclaimed by the other clan? I think this makes it all a little too organsied.