davecake

My way is to spend time on the *interesting* details. Hey, they sold you some weapons that you think they got from a Lunar Patrol, or they have troll goods for sale where did they get those, or ancient treasure or foreign goods or the special flowers that you can show the priestess. What isn't very interesting is, say, monitoring the effective carrying capacity, feed requirements, and hoof health for each of 12 mules. My point is that in the RQG sorcery system your effectiveness as a sorcerer is directly connected to doing a large amount of boring busywork about how many days you spend meditating to have a chance at casting that Enhance INT which is just used to enhance your Free INT for the next spell that takes several days to cast as well, but how many days, because that determines what the Enhance INT duration needs to be, but maybe if I did that later in the season it might not need to be as long and oh god I am bored just even thinking about how dull it gets. And a sorcerer that doesn't do all that and just casts sorcery spells without doing masses of preparation is often either fairly pointless or completely uninteresting, limited and inflexible, or both. Not only does 'will this be fun to play?' not seem to be a design goal, I sometimes think it was designed to be dull on purpose.

No. I am in no way implying that your player has to learn about runes, the denizens of the otherworld, the or the laws of magic. That even sounds fun. I'm just saying they have to do project management, which does not sound fun to me at all. They end up doing what everyone did in RQ3 - create big spreadsheets working out how many spells they can manage to keep up, by working out how many Free INT points they can have (in RQG by multiple castings of Enhance INT), how that matches to their stored POW and POW regeneration reserves, how to get their (often quite small) casting %age up to something substantial, usually by multiple days of preparation, and procuring various necessary material and casting on the right day of the week/week of season/season, and so on. You do a lot of fairly dull stuff, to try to optimise efficiency of casting, because you are an RQG sorcerer and you are pretty useful at casting helpful sorcerer in actual adventure (you know about 3 spells that you can even reliably cast without hours of preparation, and they still take long enough that the fight is likely over), so you try really hard to make sure your character is as prepared as they can be (and has buffed your friends), because that is basically where all your utility is. Basically, other players do a bit of stuff about talking to their gods etc, you spend a few hours on spreadsheets.

Ah yes. If you want to play a merchant, take up accounting and maintain inventory. If you want to play a musician, learn to play an instrument and learn all the scales. Etc. Making your player do the busywork and unexciting parts of your characters life is the opposite of good game design.

What you haven't read is not evidence of anything. I cited several other examples in my original post in the thread.

Why would he be a sorcerer? His creations are created by mundane science. He is the most astonishing Dronar in the world - in caste he is a mere artificer, but he has been able to achieve more from his mundane creations than anyone thought possible. Perhaps because no one else would put so much effort into things that are much easier performed by sorcery. But as they are within caste law, he is unaging and has been able to push his skills to an astonishing degree.

Well, sure, but in sorcerous societies those very few are overwhelmingly going to become sorcerers? Literally, the rules say those with an INT above 16 become sorcerers in Rokari soriety. So literally every sorcerer has a high INT. Well, sure because most of the population aren't sorcerers? However, when discussing which runes sorcery uses, we really only are concerned about those that are sorcerers. [examples of complex stacking of Enhance INT] One of the things I disliked about RQ3 sorcery was this sort of complex maths to calculate optimal casting. RQG not only decided to double down on it, but because day of the week etc are now relevant, added calendars as well as spreadsheets. So basically, playing a sorcerer has become an exercise in project management.

Yes, which is the exact opposite of what I suggested, which was to look at the lore and see if that suggests Fire is dominant. Given that I can't see anything in any of the sources to suggest that Fire sorcerers are dominant, or even noted, then anything in the rules which would make them so would seem to be a problem with the rules. The opposite, if anything - Water sorcerers are obviously the mainstay of the Waertagi but also seem very significant among the God Learners (and the Water spells in the rules suggest sorcery is absolutely massive in naval battles), Earth magic is important in the history of Seshnela, Darkness sorcery is known to Arkati sorcerers, especially the troll ones, Orlanth linked sorcery sects are known (eg the Chariot of Lightning sect), even Irrippi Ontor uses Moon sorcery, but Fire seems the least noted elemental sorcery in Gloranthan history, which would be very weird if it was obviously the most beneficial to a sorcerer by far - Enhance INT RAW means it substantially benefits literally every other use of sorcery, which no other element comes close to.

I have never found much need for them to worship anything other than the Bloody Tusk, which is already a pretty good war god, and with some overlap with ZZ anyway. Pain Tooth, Fear, and Seal Wound is pretty good. And note that in RQG, their chronically low Charisma means they can know very little spirit magic (though their access to useful combat spirit magic is otherwise very good). But luckily they have an easy obvious solution to this problem, through the Bloody Tusk - Death Binding. I think they will even Death Bind each other in lethal dominance duels etc. So I think they not only almost universally join the Bloody Tusk, but tend to invest extra POW in Death Binding defeated enemies, and keeping collections of severed hands etc. I was a player in a campaign with Tusk Riders as enemies, they make great campaign villains because they are SO hateable. They captured my Babeestor Gor PC by casting Sleep, that they could cast because they had captured and murdered and Death Bound a Chalana Arrow healer. Then they cast Seal Wound and tortured her nearly to death - the Seal Wound meant she could not be healed and was incapacitated and in pain for a season. My Hate (Tusk Riders) passion got pretty high - then I fumbled it on the last battle against them, and fled. Luckily when I had a chance to collect myself, I realised Babeester Gor provides a way to counteract the demoralising effect of a fumbled Passion - Berserk.

IMG, the Vadeli know how to make special weapons that will bind your spirit into them if they are touching you when you die (usually because you've been stabbed with them), known as Telendarian weapons (usually daggers, occasionally swords, the Vadeli could probably create lances and other things if they wanted to), thus preventing Resurrection (and Speak with Dead, Summon Ancestor, etc) until they choose to release the spirit. hey are thus great assassins weapons if you want to ensure someone isn't resurrected, or even worse nefarious purposes like making them your spiritual slave. Vadeli, being utterly devoid of morals, often cast Tap POW to destroy any such captured soul. These weapons are known to the sort of people who might want to know about them. The Vadeli may even sell such weapons for a price, certainly lend them out at least. (yes, they are somewhat inspired by Morganti weapons in the Vlad Taltos series)

Well, that's one way of looking at it. Another way is making the fiction fit the rules. Enhance INT, associated with the Fire Rune, would be a massive advantage to sorcerers who had the Fire Rune over all other sorcerers. Do we have anything in Gloranthan lore that suggests that Fire rune sorcerers are particularly powerful and notable? I don't think so, so they shouldn't be in the rules either. So IMG Enhance INT exists, but does not effect Free INT. It can make you good at a bunch of other stuff though. But of course, this is the egregious munchkinery thread, so go nuts.

The one spell we know he gets, because he grants it as an associated cult to a few cults, is Command Horse.

Well, I was thinking a bit further East, given Ive just been writing about the East Isles for the Jonstown Compendium, and had my head buried in Revealed Mythologies and mysticism for a year or so. It’s hard to see the Vithelan Great Sages, all of whom struggled against what seems like Chaos, as secretly Chaotic. Mashunasenndefeating Oorsu Sara and then Avanapdur, for example. But the general point of a lot of Glorantha treatment of Mysticism comes across very Orientalist, especially the early stuff and Kralorela in particular, is true. I think pointing to sources like Waley is not far off. But like Joseph Campbell, Greg was quite capable of using some sources while simultaneously criticising too rigid or mistaken approaches. The God Learners can be taken as both Greg saying Joseph Campbell has a lot of value and is disastrous if taken too literally. Nysalor and the Arkat story can be taken as Greg saying the idea of enlightenment from Indian (mostly) thought can be misinterpreted terribly and immorally, but that isn’t all there is to it (and I think Greg had some personal reasons for putting that view, and was familiar with some of the misguided Orientalist interpretations). Greg’s thought often has hidden depths to it. But damn I wish he was still here to talk about it with us.

While it’s getting beyond dumbest theories - Chaos in the philosophical sense is the limitless potential of everything, the boundless possibilities of what could potentially be as compared to the Cosmos that is limited to what actually is. So without Chaos nothing truly new comes into being, including originally the Cosmos itself. So Chaos can’t be considered malign or evil in the philosophical sense, without it there would be nothing, and the mystics who are striving to transcend the limitations of this universe see that. Of course, Chaos in practice is quite different, it manifests as that which shouldn’t exist leaking through into a universe that rejects it, it’s an affront to consensus reality and a continual urge to break all rules, from the rules of physics to the laws of morality. Chaos as the philosophical foundation outside the universe and our reality, from which existence emerged, is one thing - the problem is when Chaos doesn’t stay there, Chaos leaking into the universe and breaking reality and laws is quite different, and generally horrifying and dangerous to mortal minds (not to mention reality itself). It gets conceptually quite Lovecraftian - gods from universes where the concepts of logic itself are different. The greatest of Chaos deities aren’t simply mutations of the non-Chaotic, but perverse twists of Glorantha metaphysics. Notably combining Opposed Runes (in oneself) is an Illumination power. A Seven Mothers cultist can learn both Death and Life Rune magic, but she can’t be good at casting them both unless Illuminated. Illumination is the mystic learning to perceive the world in ways that transcend mortal consciousness. Chaos sorcery might require Illumination, as it requires the resolution of incompatible logics, believing several impossible things at once. Well, Moon is a fast path to Illumination. My (possibly Dumb) theory is the Sevening rites of the Lunar cults are a ‘speed run’ of Nysaloran Illumination by pushing the mind of the cultist outside of normal perceptions with the help of a lot of madness magic - hopefully the cultist Illuminated without too much permanent damage to their sanity. Terribly dangerous to one’s mental health, but you can’t afford to wait around for years of meditation and riddles when you need more Illuminated Red Moon magicians for the Lunar College of Magic! Most Lunar sorcerers aren’t Chaos sorcerers except in the most paranoid sense, just sorcerers who know a bit of Moon rune magic, though.

Well, Mostali certainly believe in disembodied spirits, they just (at least the orthodox ones) think they are not terribly useful except as Energy. They seem to think any intellect in a disembodied spirit (even, or especially, a dead Mostali) is of little value, and may ultimately be somehow a delusion, a confused impression of living memories, hence their belief that an appropriate afterlife is just recycling of their energy into the whole. Individualists believe otherwise, but of course that is what they are heretics. Apostates may too. The Flintnail cult seem to be extreme OpenHandists, likely so extreme that even more moderate OpenHandists might not associate with them, but it's not clear if they have fallen into full apostasy. Probably though.

Not only do I think that there are quite a lot of anti-Chaos mystics in the East, it would be so terribly disappointing if there were no Chaos Sorcerers. It's just the clueless Pelorians that keep thinking mysticism must be Chaos. I suspect ultimately it is Yelm's fault. No, if the Runes are the fundamental building blocks of the universe, like the Sefirot in the Cabbala, then there should be the Qlippoth as well, the incomplete impure shells, the broken versions of the Runes, the cracks in the world through which Chaos gets in. They could be regarded as sub-runes of Chaos - not fundamentally changing the system of Runes, but elaborating it. We already know one of them - the Hunger Rune. Kind of Life and Death combined. Logically, there must be at least one more for each Power pair, but probably several more. It makes sense it would be known, because Chaos sorcery is clearly what Vampires do so they preserve the knowledge of their core rune, but other forms of Chaos sorcery were known in the Gbaji Wars (we know at least of the Chaos sorcerer Arinsor who was a foe of Talor), and while they would have been suppressed by almost everyone (both the Arkati and their proto-God Learner foes, and the Brithini and the Hrestoli, plus everyone who hates sorcery), they may yet have survived. Maybe the Vadeli know all about them? Though it's possible the Vadeli may be unable to use them, either because they are un-Illuminated or because they are still bound be their caste law. Anyway, what are the other anti-runes of the Chaos Sorcerers? Perhaps Entropy is one, and Corruption (corresponding to Kajabor and Wakboth?).

Your Mostali informant can spin it how they like, but I believe the account of Jolanti creation given in the Glorantha page 63 to be essentially correct - while refinement of the physical form, including sensory organs, limbs and communication organs are the work of stonemasons and sculptors of the Rock caste, creation of the Jolanti Tamestone consciousness and ability to act as independent servants, capable of carrying out orders, aka sentience, requires the participation of a Diamonddwarf of the Tin caste. Of course, ability to reason independently in ways that demonstrate goals independent from Mostali direction (aka sapience or intentionality) is an undesirable attribute, and attributable only to the interference of non-Mostali with Mostali Tamestones. Other castes are involved in the process, for example the great Iron-coated vats that the Jolanti are created in obviously involve Iron dwarves usually (though other metals are possible, probably resulting in less robust Jolanti), and melting that amount of stone probably involves Brass dwarves to manage that level of heat. The Jolanti are often enchanted by Silver dwarves, etc. Involving many castes and a Tin diamonddwarf, creating a Jolanti is a serious undertaking that most smaller communities may not be capable of, and it is quite understandable that creating the huge Jolanti of the past is beyond the capacity of (as far as we know) any modern dwarves (or at least the vast majority). Creating a Jolanti the size of the Faceless Stone statue requires a smelting facility that is even bigger than that, and hundreds to thousands of dwarves to rapidly sculpt such a huge being (no wonder they didn't have the capacity to give it a proper face). If one existed into historical times it is also certainly destroyed (the most likely candidate would be beneath Nida, and if so it was destroyed by the giants including Gonn Orta in the second age). In RQ3 terms, because they allow making a distinction RQG doesn't, the work of Rock dwarves gives the Jolanti their STR, SIZ, DEX, and their ability to speak at least, and the quality of their sense organs. But the Tin dwarves deepest magics are required to grant them a Fixed INT. It is probably Tin dwarf magic that grants them magic points that empower their permanent ability to move. Mostali have no desire for Jolanti to have true INT, and probably the only Jolanti with true INT are the result of Aldryami meddling, and this probably grants them CHA as well. Personally I also believe that: Nilmergs, in a terrible Mostali secret, may be a form of dwarf that is deliberately stunted and does not receive the Alchemical processes that grow the protodwarf into their adult, caste optimised, form. Gremlins are then nilmergs where the process of deliberate neoteny/mental retardation fails and an adult dwarf mind grows but without appropriate training. This would explain why they are able to develop, even by accident, the independent intelligence that Mostali methods are incapable of creating in the Jolanti. The various stone and metal animals documented in sources such as Anaxials Roster IMO are an emergency stopgap method, and not true independent creatures that can reproduce - they are when Mostali wanted emergency reinforcements to assist them in their wars, but lacking the resources required for Jolanti (in particular, there are a very limited number of Tin Diamonddwarfs) they resorted to a shortcut, perhaps taught to them by their Vadeli allies. The Granite Rhinoceros, Bronze Goats, etc probably are created by making bodies by normal Mostali processes, but then transferring the consciousness of animals into the constructed bodies. Though mineral species such as gargoyles may have a Mostali origin, perhaps long ago before Mostal had learnt to hate Growth, and before elves had killed Stone. Where Gobblers fit into this mess is another question entirely. Perhaps a rare gargoyle species then mutated by Alchemical processes?

They absolutely are a fun thing to have in the game, and they make awesome villains. Some dwarves were allies of Nysalor. And I think Chaos dwarves may have turned up in Sandy's game on top of the Plateau of Statues? In my 13th Age in Glorantha game I used Derros as Chaos dwarves, worked well. But I don 't think that the Flintnail cult have anything to do with it. But if you want to go that route in your game, go nuts. The Flintnail cult seem to use mostly Rock dwarf magic. But they also seem to have a lot of knowledge of Jolanti, which suggests Tin? In any case it suggests that Flintnail is not the same person as Isidilian, who is generally taken to be The Dwarf of Dragon Pass (who is a Quicksilver dwarf). Or they could include both, or the caste magics overlap a little - they don't seem too be able to create Jolanti, but they do seem to be able to understand their physical construction if not their sentience.

And in my games, I might let Odayla have Sureshot as an associated cult spell maybe? When I said I mean Foundchild, Zong, Rasout, Dastal, Hensarava, etc are all more or less cultural variations on Foundchild. Foundchild is a very basic deity who independently reappears in many different cultures.

Each Island is already known for its patron deity. There are some martial arts associated with a specific island, but more often a martial arts tradition will be associated with a famous hero. And islands known for god of hairdressing or special fruit, etc do not need an associated martial arts tradition. It would get quite silly quite quickly.

I loved how in HQG Odayla had an arrangement with Kolat shamans (now not restricted to Kolat shamans maybe?) in which the Odayla cultist could be given a spirit binding animal charm by a shaman, and then hunt down the appropriate animal and catch its dying breath and bind it into the charm. It’s not specifically said to apply in RQG, but Foundchild is said to have the Binding spirit magic spell in the Cults draft I have, which I assume is a typo for Spirit Binding, and I would love to this idea come back - it is a great bit of extra magic for hunters, not too powerful but very useful, and very evocative. I’ve found that hunters are quite popular PCs, but players tend to chafe a bit at the limited magic, and also that hunters are a fairly skill centric character concept, but are notably deprived of skills, so they tend not to be terribly good at doing hunter type stuff. Letting them earn some spirits is at least one way to help the former.

I think most hunter cults do have missile magic. Because most hunter cults are variants on Foundchild, and so have Sureshot. I also find the stuff about Yinkin and Odayla being associated cults of Foundchild, but that get no magic only the ‘right to participate in the Great Hunt’ to be pretty odd. I think most initiates of Yinkin or Odayla who hunt (which isn’t necessary all of them) can be initiates of Foundchild if they wish. Some do, some don’t - and if course, some may choose to use Foundchild magic other than missile magic (such as Beastmaster to lure prey into position for driving them, Disruption for small game, Mobility for running down prey, etc). It wouldn’t be that unreasonable for Odayla initiates, given the number of Odayla bow myths, to get Sureshot as an associate cult spell (Yinkin might be more of a Draw Beast type).

What gets me is that Yelmalio isn’t even close to being good at ‘happening to be soldiers’. In the Cults draft he is, I think, the third best at fighting of the three different light gods that are also fighting gods in the book, after Polaris and Yelorna? Even maybe fourth, after Kargzant, which is just a slightly better sub-cult? There seems to be a serious effort to maintain that Yelmalio must have no useful combat magic, not even spirit magic. Any reason a cult that love the bow can’t grant Speedart or Multimissile? Why a cult that loves spears can’t have Bladesharp? Why a cult whose pride, and biggest myths, are about standing firm and continuing to fight can’t have Vigor or Protection? Why, if Yelmalio are supposed to be so effective because of their perfect training and esprit de corps, why Humakt gets Morale but they don’t? This is one of the things that keeps being said about Yelmalio - that players are mistaken that Yelmalio is a serious fighting god. The real joke is that no, it’s Yelmalions who are mistaken that they worship a fighting god. Yelmalio obviously has no interest in having soldiers as worshippers… Yet the lore, before even Cults of Prax, tells us that Yelmalio troops are really dangerous an effective in battle, against any opponent, not just trolls - and then the RQ rules give us virtually no reason to think that is remotely plausible. (IMG, Yelmalio regimental wyters tend to grant something like Morale, just to give them a chance. Or even just mass Fanaticism, as their defensive abilities are not needed if they just keep the shield wall strong. Face Darkness, analogous to Face Chaos, would make a pretty good Yelmalio sub-cult spell)

Less kind voices say they don’t lose only because they refuse to end the game.

To the extent that Dream Magic is closely connected to Theya/Thella and her web at the Dawn is probably the central myth cycle of modern Keets. The creepy little ‘pterodactyl keet’ Chaos critters the sorns were created then too.

In the East Isles, not only is Thella the goddess of dreams, but Avanapdur, once the mighty god of Illusion and ruler of the world, is now the Nightmare Lord - a bad guy, but purely in the dream world. And there is a whole system of magic based on dreams and the Dream world. Dream magicians can lucid dream and control their dreams, then enter the dreams of others and control their dreams - and eventually drag dreams into the waking world and make them real. There are multiple schools of dream magic, some who believe its illusions can teach deeper truths, but many who believe the dream world is false and must be destroyed. It is a whole complicated thing, much more detail in Revealed Mythologies - and we intend to create rules for Dream Magic for a future book in our East Isles series. As a aside note to that, I think there was active use of Dream Magic in the City of Wonders, possibly now looted by Wolf Pirates. That should be a pretty good adventure hook. A few Dream magicians from the East Isles may have made it to Nochet as well.