davecake

There are descriptions of Lunars being killed or run out of the area en masse in Prax, but thats Prax and Pavis. Almost all the Lunars (except the Sables) are culturally distinct recent settlers or visitors. A Praxian army or Orlanthi city dwellers are going to find it easy to go around stabbing foreigners. In Sartar, whole bloodlines have gone over to worship of the Lunars, and more recently in the Great Winter. Many in Northern Sartar are originally Tarshite, and have been Lunar for generations. You can't slaughter whole chunks of your own clan. That's kinstrife. Thats an invitation to Chaos and doom. They are members of your clan or citizens of your city, and have legal rights, maybe allies on the ring, maybe links by marriage. Even the 'Lunar' leaders that came in with the occupation are mostly only from Tarsh - they are culturally much closer than they are to Praxians. Plenty of 'Lunars' are going to decide that even with the change in government, sticking around where they have houses, businesses, families is still better than setting off to somewhere they don't know, or left for very good reasons. And most Sartarites are going to disapprove, but they might have good reasons not to turn it into a pogrom. And plenty of Sartarite converts to the Lunar religion will find real spiritual value in it, and decide not to convert back, even if it is no longer as politically expedient. They still want to live where they always lived, on their own lands, among their own people. That will mean showing that, despite their weird new religion, they are still valuable members of their new communities.

Not quite. It's similar to worshipping Argan Argar without worshipping the Only Old One while the Only Old One is still alive, active in the world, and the core of a cult system that runs an Empire. In other words, questions will be asked, and more questions the more powerful you get. The Yelm in the modern era is closely controlled by the Red Emperor - you need the Emperors permission to become a member of Yelm Imperator, the elite core of powerful sacred rulers of the cult, and he doesn't grant it unless you also join the Red Goddess cult, and are Illuminated. Which isn't to saw there aren't plenty of people who worship Yelm without worshipping the Red Emperor, and not just ones outside the Empire. But at a certain point it becomes an issue.

Viking sagas were the go to sources for Orlanthi bad behaviour for a long while, and probably still are - while the recent tendency is to make the Orlanthi less Viking in cultural trappings, their legal system is still quite similar, so many of the plots hold well. In particular, Njals saga shows how even the best efforts of leaders who want peace can get dragged into a vicious vendetta by their clans/families. It was a big inspiration for a famous Orlanthi story, the story of the enmity between Lokamayadon and Rastalulf ending in the Immolation. Another one is Grettirs Saga, which shows how outlawry can basically lead straight to the life of a classic murder hobo, as Grettir, pursued by his enemies, basically wanders about asking each settlement if there is something or someone he can slaughter for cash - and it also shows how one feud can involve a lot of incidental death of those peripherally involved. Speaking of Lokamayadon, by the end of Argraths saga there are probably more than a few traditionalist Orlanth comparing Argrath to Lokamaydon, and accusing him of 'Lokamayadism', the crime of changing religious rules for personal power.

Argrath wins the Hero Wars. He has to change Orlanthi society a lot to do so - he is at least as significant in this respect as Alakoring - and somewhat in the other direction, Alakoring reduced the influence of priests and magicians and increased the power of kings and chiefs to fight against dragon mystics, Argrath wants to increase the influence of magicians by bringing in dragon mystics, and eventually will want to reduce the power of traditional clan chiefs and kings so he can build an Empire. We get Argraths Imperial perspective on this as the triumph of Storm, but you could write it from another perspective as the final submission of Orlanth to the Dragon Emperor via Lunar utuma or something like that

The Kralorelan narrative is that when Empires rise and fall you try really hard to pretend its the same Empire all along.

I think it has quite a lot. Sure, less than the modern day, but wealth really counts in Orlanthi culture. A rich carl can become a thane, a thane can become a chief. Its far more socially mobile than Solar culture, or even Esrolian (where the major houses have a lock on power, so lineage counts strongly). This isn't a straight positive though. It means ambitious Orlanthi leaders are competing quite aggressively for glory and wealth - and the quick paths to both involve violence. An ambitious low born Solar leader has to find a way to make money that is legal and probably requires noble patronage and probably still has to suck up to the nobility for generations - for example, use their wealth to become a priest of a cult eligible to retire into the Yelm the Elder cult, leverage money etc to get noble favour, maybe marry into a family with full citizenship, to give their children or grandchildren a chance at real power. A similarly ambitious Orlanthi can become a thane or a chief in one generation, if they can get enough wealth and reputation - and a shortcut to both is straight out stealing stuff from your neighbours at sword point. And the legal system is such that wealth and status is going to give you a lot of ability to resist legal attempts to restrain you, as long as you are open about it (unlike Solar culture, in which attempting to advance yourself by raiding your neighbours might get you executed). The Ernaldan customs emphasise peace making because they really need it - there are strong social incentives to start violent feuds.

As others have said, being a shaman is definitely not gender restricted in Prax, but some specific shaman paths are. In particular I think it is not that unusual in Prax to become a shaman directly through the Horned God, effectively outside the major shamanic traditions. It's also not that unusual for a shaman to be initiated via a particular path but get a lot of their magic from a different one (so, for example, a Waha or Daka Fal shaman who has a lot of magic from one of the elemental societies - particularly the Many Friends, in Davids chart). One of the things that makes shamanism, even in mixed shaman/divine cults like Waha, quite different from theism is there is often no impetus on them to be 'pure' in their relationships with the spirit world. I think the idea of a shaman who has integrated the spirit of her unborn twin as a fetch is great idea and makes for an excellent idea. So there is a gender restriction, but not a sex restriction? Interesting. Not the procedure described in the cult writeup (which says you have to be an initiate of Waha and 'of npble descent' first, but flexibility should be permitted for coolness - especially when shamans are involved. Effectively an extra taboo? I think David's chart might be wrong about Eiritha having a shamanic path in RQG. Eiritha initiates can become shamans - and shamans can become Eiritha Herd Sisters as well - but the Eiritha cult writeup has priestesses and makes no mention of shamans, same as in RQ3. That said, Helpwoman effectively can serve the role of an Eiritha shaman path, as many Helpwoman shamans will be Eiritha initiates. I assume Help Woman is effectively very similar to Serdrodosa? But in any case, there will be female shamans who are not really connected to the Eiritha cult or Earth traditions - especially Daka Fal and the Star Witches, but you could make them of any of the other (mostly elemental) minor traditions.

Now someone is going to have to explain the joke to Bill.

Actually, all you need to do is get promoted to get Sunspear. Yelm grants it as an associated cult, but only to Chief Priests of Yelmalio. Of course, you usually get promoted by waiting for the guy above you to die or retire, but there are ways of hurrying that along.

Or for magic skills, by taking a huge amount of time. Often in RQG there seem to be times when rules that seem to be very harsh are made workable by ‘of course, people usually take an entire day to do this, getting +50’. Not sure I like relying on it.

Hunter is a particular sore point with one of players who is a hunter. Hunters are very skill based characters - to be able to do the things you expect of a hunter requires a lot of skills. Part of this is it is a profession that naturally relies heavily on skill, part of it is the way skills are spilt up, a lot of them are useful outside hunting in a broader context so are separate skills in the game system. so, hunters need more skills, but get the least of any profession. Add to that that hunters get NO ability is many skills you would expect hunters to have. They can’t stalk prey - they have no Move Quietly. They can’t butcher their catch (Craft:butchery/Peaceful Cut). They can’t set snares or traps (Devise). and to add to that - the Hunter cults can be *very* odd. Found child is ok but limited, but Odayla and Yinkin are weird, often resulting in characters having no ability in skills they need Odayla combat magic turns them into bear form in which they need unarmed combat skills (which they have no chance to obtain) and can’t use their primary missile skill, Yinkin has no Peaceful Cut, Yelm is strangely suggested as a hunter cult - and nothing about it grants useful hunter skills. Plus Odayla and Yinkin are especially confusing for associated cults - they are both said to be able to ‘participate in the Great Hunt’ but no indication what it means (for Foundchild, it’s how they become Master Hunters, but for others? Who know 🤷‍♂️) and are said to be connected to Ancestor Worship but Daka Fal is Man Rune that is opposed to the Beast Rune. Very confusing.

I think it predates you - for example, it’s not mentioned in the text of Sun County explicitly, but it’s right there on the cover. yes, there really aren’t many options that work anywhere near as well. Short stabbing weapons seem the best. I don’t think they get a lot of training, but I think the idea of none whatsoever (in fact, a prohibition on providing it) seems far fetched. At least training on how to draw and stab without disrupting the phalanx too much. Yes. And your soldiers are going to have other armed duties (guarding, policing, etc) for which shorter spear and shield are useful. Plus soldiers will sometimes ‘graduate’ to phalangite from youth as a peltast/skirmisher. Not to mention if hypaspists are being used, they will be fighting in the phalanx with a shorter spear, essentially, and it may sometimes be necessary to move soldiers from one role to the other.

There are other reasons to want the game word to make logical sense. If the game world insists Templars are the dangerous effective warriors but the rules make them clearly fairly ineffective, there is a flaw somewhere. Instead, you seem to have double down on making Yelmalio a less effective cult than it has been in pretty much every previous edition. Yes. For it has taken on the symbolic role of 'wanting compatibility between the vision of Glorantha presented in multiple *current* products is a valid player desire that should be supported, not treated with bafflement or condescension'. I'm not saying that nothing should ever change, but at least some understanding that there is an actual issue, and perhaps some suggested options for resolution, would be nice. It's a bit subtler than that. Of course Elmal has lost worshippers, power and influence since the 1560s, and (especially with Argrath backing them for the most part) there seems no reason to think that will reverse. But does that mean that the Elmal clans that remain are so rare they should be considered not to exist? No, we know of a few places where they have some strength, and places where people are likely to set their games. Does the decline of Elmal to be replaced by Yelmalio add interest and drama to the game? For sure. I don't want Elmal to be a thriving alternative to Yelmalio - rather, I want the decline of Elmal to be something that is slowly happening, rather than something that has already happened. And I want being on either side of that cultural shift to be an equally valid PC choice.

If an alternate interpretation was explicitly presented, I'd accept it - if it was canon that Yelmalions had hatchets as secondary weapons due to their Earth connection, sure. (Maces seem unlikely as a Darkness weapon and considering Yelmalio is explicitly forbidden learning Bludgeon). But there is a fair amount of existing material depicting them with shortswords, many references to hoplites with a sword (kopis, generally) in Glorantha, and no alternative presented, it just seems an oversight.

Also, its noting that Yelmalio had access to Shield in RQ1/2 (when it was common magic accessible to all) and in RQ3 he first lost it (didn't have it in Gods of Glorantha) then regained it (with the long form writeup in Sun County). Quite aside from arguments about Elmal and such, I think there is a strong argument that It makes more sense for Yelmalio to have it - and that wanting Yelmalio to have a bit more war magic is only arguing for a return to what he had previously. I also find the attitude to the shortword, that was the normal secondary weapon of a phalangite historically (a xiphos to be precise), pretty interesting. Initially it seemed like a typical oversight of early RuneQuest days just missing a historical details (same as their bronze age bastard swords etc). The idea being that if someone gets past the wall of spears into the ranks, but the phalanx is still mostly holding, trying to attack someone with a pike that is in a close crush is ridiculous, so you have a much shorter weapon for close in fighting. In RQ3 etc I presumed it was an oversight and templars would still carry something similar if not well trained in its use. They'd also be used as a secondary weapon for peltasts and psiloi, the other two most common troop types of the Yelmalions - and documented and depicted as such in Armies and Enemies. But in RQG, a new restriction on Yelmalio has been introduced, that the cult absolutely never trains in sword ever, making it unlikely they would have it even as a secondary weapon - and unintentionally meaning that the Templars are always going to have a weakness not just in their magic, but in their equipment and tactics as well. This seems unnecessary. So, there is an argument that RQG Yelmalion magic and skills needs to be improved just to raise them up to the equivalent of previous editions. The argument about Hastatus and Truespear is twofold - one is that the Golden Spearman image of the cult is so emphasized in essentially every discussion of them that it seems weird for them to have no magic about spears at all. And the other is that it seems very odd to argue that essentially every other sky pantheon spear fighter has access to it, and they do not, yet they are still to be considered the most dangerous spearmen.

You haven’t hung around with me much! I’ve been saying his magic is weak since the 1980s! But it’s also true that as RQG has made Rune magic a far more accessible and common part of the game, it’s made the differences in magic more important.

While it’s possible, I think that is pretty much heresy according to the mainstream of both sides. But Illuminates have many different perspectives.

There is also the upcoming Tarsh civil war. Already the tensions between The Kings faction and the Fazzurites is high, perhaps enough that some act of betrayal will have caused Fazzuritesto have reasons to avoid the Lunars - and Annstad of Dunstop, one of Fazzur sons, has joined Argraths band (and some Lunars personally loyal to him may have joined Argraths team at the same time). It will get worse over the next few years, until there is open civil war, with a proportion of the Lunar elite remaining loyal to Fazzur over the King.

Yes, though least important of those four probably.

I think Hastatus is worshipped as an associated god of several war gods - not just Yelm (whose direct worship is restricted to the social elite) but also Polaris, Shargash, etc. I think he is also worshipped directly by low level soldiers, the rank and file, though usually with almost no rune levels dedicated to his worship. I wouldn't pay too much attention to the details of what was in Enclosure. A lot has changed in our understanding since then. These days, I think Hastatus is mostly important to Alkoth as an associated cult of Shargash, providing him with Truespear, and a war god (alongside Shargash) for those regiments that use spears. Though there are also Shargashi units that use other weapons (especially clubs), such as the Kill You regiment and the Feathered Axe (who despite the name use clubs and javelins).

Yes, it makes perfect sense that Hastatus could be associated with Yelmalio, and as a source of weapon enhancing magic it would bring Yelmalio up to par with other warrior cults - I just have never seen a writeup in which it is. I guess that Hastatus is more restricted to Dara Happa?

In no way did I mean to imply Yelmalio had some sort of monopoly on peltasts. There are peltast units in pretty much every satrapy and more. I don't think Silver Shields have much to do with Yelmalio, and probably are not even peltasts (Armies and Enemies has them as hypaspist heavy infantry. Probably yes. But they will be very weak units. If all Harvar Ironfit had was some peltasts with poor magic, he'd be pretty insequential. I think the Vantaros have Templar hoplites. Remember most of the rural tribes of southern Tarsh are still more or less Orlanth worshipping (sshh I mean Barntar). I think there were plenty of Elmal worshippers among them - at least before Monrogh, which happened in living memory. Depends, there are number of massed foot archer units in Armies and Enemies. But the Yelmalions don't field independent regiments of them it seems. There is a great little chart in Armies and Enemies (pg 135) that details exactly what form of flank support each Yelmalion temple trains with - and for Vanntar its Psiloi (archers). Many others use peltasts or light cavalry, or even chariots. Vanntar no doubt has trained riders, but many less than psiloi archers. As I said, to protect the hoplites they use primarily archers. [Yelmalios bad spirit magic] I'm not saying they can't possibly learn them, just that they will be much rare than the spells they do teach. You should assume that the average Templar has Yelmalio magic. The average person learns what spirit magic they get for free, not spend comparative fortunes for magic from other cults. And among the Vanntar people or Varantos, the clan temple to Orlanth is a sad affair. The Golden Spearman is a generic name for any Lightfore as infantry cult. I haven't seen any indictation Hastatus is allied to Yelmalio - but it would be one obvious way to make Yelmalio suck less. No, not in any writeup of either I have seen. Now, Kargzant is allied with Polaris, but thats different. I don't think Rigsdal (a very minor cult among the Orlanthi) gets any of the big military magic Polaris has. In game terms for those with the Gods Book draft, probably mostly just the odd shrine with Star Sight, which is probably what he grants to either Elmal or Orlanth associates. Yes, but that was a millenium ago, and they were mostly mystic IMO. He may have even introduced gifts and geases was back then! He probably also had the taming giant Vrok hawk magic back then too, but knowing the secret of taming a now extinct magic isn't so useful. The emphasis on mysticism was certainly one thing - in other words, it taught Illumination. It started as an offshoot of the Antirius cult of the Dara Happans? Many major features of the Yelmalio cult that distinguish it from either Elmal, or from other hoplite cults, may have originated then. There is certainly a theory that the heavy sarissa spear that makes them phalangites was brought in in response to facing charges from Western cavalry. It probably had a quite different set of Associated cults. Probably quite similar to modern Yelmalio but more Dara Happan and more mystic. But mostly, its just over a thousand years ago.

Well, that addresses my objections.... .... but that brings all of them straight back, mostly a bit stronger. There are many more Southern options. Well, I kind of assumed your myth was at least post-Flood, but I guess you intended it earlier? Still, Fronela or further north doesn't work for me for all the reasons I mentioned above. Yes, same way Kero Fin is more than a big mountain to the Orlanthi of Dragon Pass but means nothing in Pamaltela. But what the Orlanthi of Dragon Pass think should not be the centre of a Fronelan or more Northern myth. Makes as much sense as a myth about Dragon Pass featuring Jermotius and Bisos and Yargan, Why would they have a myth set that far away? If its not the Sog City in Fronela, just make it one that is much much closer (somewhere now underwater if you don't want to make it the Prax site) I don't think it should be about Shargash of Alkoth - but even less they should be using a more southern name for an even more Northern version of the deity! I never suggested the Pelorian Shargash, rather the Fronelan Vorlath, who isn't understood as part of the Yelm/Emperors pantheon. Why do we need a myth to explain the idea of the Bad Storm to be constantly assailed by Bad Storms? Just saying - the myth might work for you, but it doesn't work for me as a myth about the far North.

Once you take away the hoplite thing, they aren't much of a thing. Which is why I want to beef up Elmal just a little. But you also miss out on a lot of good magic - you aren't going to get that useful associated cult magic from Yelm if you live amongst a bunch of Orlanthi. Well, it makes a bit more sense if you are a pygmy who wants to avoid physical combat with anyone bigger than you. Then you don't really care that you have poor melee combat options. Presuming the entire Impala nation just ignores the explicit cult rules to 'ride no animal but a horse' rule, of course. My error. I was thinking of the Dolutha, who of course are Cinsina. I don't think the Dinacoli seem to have a lot of Yelmalio worshippers though. Well, declaring any reference you don't like to be in error is one way to argue, I guess. Do you have a source for your viewpoint? I think Yelmalian doctrine has adapted to local conditions, and has included peltasts, massed archers, etc. Indications are that while the Vaantar Templars have some light cavalry, it isn't in significant numbers. The cult teaches neither spell - while they could pick it up for full price, you have to assume its rare. Same with Protection, Countermagic, Speedart, Multimissile, Befuddle - almost everything useful, really. While you could imagine they have such effects, there is no evidence that they do. Unlike, say, Polaris or Humakt, who have Morale and more. Of course, they have regimental wyters in their standards, but thats just unremarkable magic defences that most people have access to. (and Sunbright and Lightwall work pretty well in tight groups like a phalanx, so they are set for fighting Darkness creatures) We are discussing Yelmalio here, which excels in pointless traditions that get in the way. For example they won't teach you sword, at all, even though a shortsword is normally the side arm of a phalangite. Not for Yelmalio though, its giant sarissa and if they get inside your guard you... no idea, actually. Whatever inconvenient traditions the Stonewall phalanxes, the Templars seem to have more.

The secret history, or not so secret to anyone with any history, is that Yelmalio has a long history of being tied up with mysticism, and then repudiating it when it becomes less popular (at least publicly). In the First Age they fought for Nysalor, and became the mystic sun cult Daysenarus. In the Second Age they fought against the EWF until they switched sides and fought for it, and adopted some draconic mysticism (then got screwed over by the Dragonkill like everyone). Its one of the reasons their magic is so weak - they, like many mystics, found 'austerities' the best source of magic (Gifts and Geases) and concentrated on it, and then found that they were not as good once you don't have mysticism to support their use (ie in crude rules terms, you can no longer get away with breaking your geases at need and stacking up masses of Gifts). These secrets are hidden in secret cult documents and hidden cult lineages. Argrath wants the Vanntar temple partly for the practical reason that it gets him sorely lacking trained professional regiments. But also he knows that the cult is ripe for Illumination and being drawn into his emerging draconic wisdom magical coalition, and thus a potential source of Illuminated magicians and heroes, which he is going to need to take on the Empire magically. And he can exploit their historical tolerance for Illumination (compared to Sartarites or Praxians) by installing his Illuminated companion Rurik as leader, and spreading Illumination amongst their leadership. He attempts this first by backing Belvani for leadership of Sun County in Prax. But Vanntar is his second time around and he is a lot smoother. Which makes the Yelmalions of Vanntar potentially very interesting in the Hero Wars with an Illuminated elite eventually attempting to reorganise their religious practices to further Argraths mysterious agenda... An undercurrent to what is going on with Vanntar. Or maybe just a conspiracy theory, that just provides unprovable claims about what can easily be explained by more mundane politics....