Joerg

Kordros Island is Pelorian only by water-shed and language. Geographically (which should be the main concern for an Earth temple) it is Dragon Pass/Kerofinela, a region usually associated with Maniria rather than Peloria. I would have expected Saird or Holay to have another such holy site. After all, once upon a time we were told that all things Ernaldan had their roots in Saird. Dwernapple sounds like a good candidate, also considering how the presence of holy ground disrupted that battle.

The amounts of lands turned into a wasteland or drowned between the Golden Age and the Dawn are roughly the same in Genertela and Pamaltela, if you look at the vast Nargan Desert which reduces the former Doraddi (and Artmali) territories by at least half, and the drowned lands (mostly of the Outrigger Peoples) along the coast. The almost intact survival of the jungle belt in Pamaltela is possibly the major difference between Pamaltela and Genertela. I wonder whether the "dryads as only females" culture of the yellow elves is in any way profiting from the survival of the Earth King, but then there are green and brown elf forests in Umathela (a re-forestation of Somelz? Is the Earth King alive there again?) and there are yellow elves in southeastern Genertela and the islands of the East. (Where Vith is around, too...) In Genertela, the brown elves show up in Genert's Garden, aided by Yelmalio Lightfore and kept alive by Antirius for at least the first part of the Lesser Darkness. They have the strange mix of two genders of Aldryami and dryad mothers. The green elves coexist with dryads as well (see e.g. Biturian's encounter in Redwood Forest), but those dryads aren't part of their procreation. Then there is the Greatwood, the great forest of the Hykimi peoples and the Kachisti roaming grounds, in western Genertela. How much is Ernalda a daughter of Genert? Her mythical role among the Hill Barbarians and related cultures is that of the super-Land Goddess, source of sovereignty. There doesn't seem to be such a "marry the land goddess to become chief" tradition in Pamaltela, even though Pamalt did marry the earth daughter and became chief, but the latter was from merit rather than by marriage. Marrying made Pamalt part of the pantheon (compare Elmal in Orlanthi mythology). But then Orlanth's marriage with Ernalda may have re-sealed the similar previous marriage of Durev and Orane. Thunder Rebels lists the fire husbands of the handmaidens of Ernalda, additional brothers of the three lowfires, as part of the Storm Tribe, that's not so dissimilar from Lodril Balumbasta and Vangono etc. becoming Pamalt's in-laws and part of his Necklace. Brightface apparently claimed merit for his taking away the sovereignty from the White Goddess(es), too, and Orlanth undergoes a series of contests to bring back his woman and become king. Yelm claims a sovereignty from above, If it wasn't Yelm's descent to Hell which took away life from the northern continent, what was it that tipped the balance? Flamal being cut down by Zorak Zoran? Death (Nontraya) coming for the Goddess(es) hiding beneath new hills, or "Not Dead But Sleeping"? Or the result of Earthfall where Genert sacrificed himself and a good deal of his followers to allow some noncombatants to flee? Antirius sinking ever lower, and whisking out? The Breaking of the World? (That event brought a measure of fertility and prosperity to Kethaela with the rebirth of Choralinthor and the Faralinthor coastline.)

What is the role of Genert in Esrolia?

I don't think it is as much cultural prohibition (that, too) but an actual mythical imperative that links left-handedness with draconic thought. Which could be tested in Kralorela, where people with draconic insights might be quite numerous.

The Solar traditions of the East are ancient - the God Learners understood Vith and Kralori TarnGatHa as Aether, and Kralori HeenMaroun as Yelm (or possibly the Solar Emperor). Metsyla was the Phoenix Emperor, clearly a Solar figure. He is the Kralorelan equivalent of Antirius. The God Learners, or at least the weird spin-off that became the False Dragons Ring, had more than 300 years of occupation in Kralorela, and delivering written reports to the Lhankor Mhy libraries under God Learner influence. RQ2 Companion has those snippets of the Jonstown Compendium which offer the first data about Kralorela and the Kingdom of Ignorance (which has its own quite Solar tradition). Sheng Seleris relied on this solar common ground when he entered Boshan as a prophet after achieving his enlightenment. Later he brought Kralori administrators to lead and control the Dara Happan bureaucracy. The Kralori fit right in, and probably left quite a few descendants in allied minor houses behind.

In order to get onto the Fish Roads, you need to follow the rites (and presumably binding oaths) of the temples providing that service. Maybe not in the City of Wonders, though, where you would descend into the basment below the city into the grand exchange, and probably start breathing water as soon as you are at sea level. (Why bother with an air bubble?) The Grand Exchange would have been the most exciting place in the Fish Road system, apart maybe from Deeper. And much of the Grand Exchange will be in ruins, or cut off from whatever surface place was connected to it. There might be something like a void bubble hovering over the Fish roads entering here, but as I said, there are no stories yet in which these Fish Roads have been used, and it would be a crying shame never to use them, so I postulate that it is still somewhat possible to cross over from the Backford or Nochet roads into the southern network. Risky, sure, why not?

Pamalt is both. The one appearing in Doraddi stories follows pretty much the itinerary of Tada - pushing up a range of mountains to seal off the bad neighbors, for instance, or cheating the invader (bringing the Necklace to a one-on-one duel vs. hiding Eiritha under her hills). I don't know why Genert acted through an avatar with a decidedly trickster-like streak. Pamalt raising the Fense mountains to stop his aldryami worshipers from reaching his garden makes it feel like there were two aspects operating there, one giving fertility regardless of association, the other doing his best to keep his chosen creations from being overwhelmed by another group using that fertility against them. Pamalt as the continental source of fertility (and sovereignty?) is something different from Pamalt the new husband and guardian of Aleshmara's not so little family. Genert and Tada have a somewhat well defined division of labor between them. In Pamaltela, both these jobs bear Pamalt's name.

My problem with that is that sinister southpaws in Glorantha are carrying the mark of the dragon. Which is sort of ok if Sorala has advanced enough in her studies of all things EWF, but Nathem? (He may just be left-eyed, although instinctive archery doesn't really put that much weight on exact aiming across a shaft with a single eye.)

Trepanation. A surgical practice from paleolithic times already. Digging out thorns, arrow shafts, stingers. Lancing boils. Removing renal calculus (an activity that is taboo according to the Hippocratic Oath), gall stones. Caesarean delivery. Hernia.

Water plays a bit of a corrosive role - without drinking water, the first Agimori were immortal but infertile. By taking in water, their life force was washing away, which enabled them to pass it on to a next generation. That's why the Oases play a big role in Pamaltela, much like in Prax, although with the difference that the oasis people down south are prestigious bloodlines rather than abject slaves. But then, their Tada figure (Pamalt as the new son-in-law in earth-grandmother's hut, as opposed to the earth king worshiped by the Errinoru elves which parallels Genert as continental deity) emerged alive and victorious from the Greater Darkness. Might be the deity of the former Nargan Sea which was at the heart of the Doraddi lands.

Prince Hrestol didn't get to witness the details because he was not a descendant of Menena (unlike his wife). That points to ancestor worship. Daka Fal wasn't named, but Malkion. Same thing, really, according to the Cults of Prax write-up of Daka Fal.

The Malkioni application appears to do just that, though - they use their ancestor worship to contact their founders' generation for intercession in at least one of Greg's stories.

There might be subtle portents or visitations, akin to leaving a horse head in the bed. It would be a waste if the terror only lasts for the last few breaths of a perp.

The Fish Road into the Footprint apparently goes down wherever the Syphon waters go in pursuit of the Chaos Void. That place is definitely on the Other Side, dangerous and a heroquesting place similar to the Eternal Battle. I doubt that the Fish Road played a role in the scorpionman outbreak. Access to the Fish Road is through temples. Without the proper rites in the temples, travelers (including their steeds and draught beasts) cannot gain the ability to breathe water. These temple termini are few - Nochet, Seapolis, Backford, Deeper, and the City of Wonders have them, and the one below the City of Wonders may not be in this world any more, or it doesn't connect to Belintar's magical city any more. I expect that the Fish Roads remain functional between the other termini, for the simple reason that they haven't been used or mentioned in older material and it would be a pity to leave them unused. If you have a means to breathe under water for hours and days, you don't need the fish roads. As a means of transportation, ships traveling the surface are superior in carrying capacity and speed of travel, especially since traveling the fish roads puts you up against the viscosity of moving under water. Maybe not quite as bad, but if you have traveled a few miles along a sandbar in at least hip deep water, you will have an idea about the workout that is. The one use that I see for mass transportation where the Fish Road beats ships might be herding beasts into the city, but any beast will be in an out of context situation, probably as bad as if you granted them the ability to walk on a water surface. The exact extent of the "field" that allows land folk to breathe air while on the Fish Road hasn't been described. A High Llama rider might be just within the effect on the upper edge, and the width needs to be enough so that opposing traffic can be passed. Jumping on the Fish Road cannot be done in order to gain the atmospheric advantage, although water creatures supposedly can swim through the area just normally. Land dwellers using the Fish Road probably cannot "fly" (swim above the bottom) unless they can do so on dry land, too. If you want to start swimming off the Fish Road, I suppose you have to stray far enough to the side walking on the sea bottom until the water breathing effect is lost. There might be some warning signals or a short transitory period that may allow the walker to return into the area of effect. I am unsure what happens to someone walking the Fish Road who gets picked up by some unfriendly sea dwellers (e.g. Sea Trolls) and carried out of the area of effect. Presumably such a victim will drown. The rules about entering in a terminus are written in similar terms as the use of dragonewt roads by dragonewts in Dragon Pass. I doubt that. There might be designated camp sites, but permanent land dweller habitation under water would probably a deal breaker for the Seas outside the termini. Merfolk aren't renowned for building shelters in the land dweller style. Sea dwellers might use the camp sites for trading with the resting travelers. On the other hand, if you think you can produce some form of underwater Apple Lane that makes sense, show us how it is done. There might be some seven miles boots effect for travelers, but if so, it is absent from the description. We don't know whether or how the water currents like tidal currents affect travelers - do they experience such like wind, or will they exert the full force? The latter seems to prohibit foot travel. Sending a force of land dwelling military along such a route requires a lot of trust. The effect on the troops probably is worse than for Varus's legions traveling into the Germanian forests. The toll probably is the tithing to the temples that perform the rites on travelers willing to enter. I would compare that to temples providing healing. The temples probably paid something (worship energy) to Belintar and the Sea gods. After 1616, the situation is unclear, after 1624 even more so. In my projection for the Hero Wars, the Fish Roads with their magical effect might be one desperate survival ploy for when the Flood is going to strike. Refugees would be able to enter the domain of the Sea Gods that come raiding as supplicants. The Flood is going to last two years or so until the lowlands fall dry again, so refugees had better pack quite a big lunch packet... I would say yes, although not at full speed. Would a bee keeper be able to bring a hive onto the Fish Road? The bees wouldn't be able to find flowers, but they might still be able to fly about At the very least, I expect the Fish Roads to linger for a few decades. The entry rites may get more and more difficult over time. I think that the Fish Roads are the result of magical treaties initiated by Belintar, but probably treaties between Sea deities and Land and Air deities. There may have been some additional exchange of magic between the contractual partners, like associate cults exchange spells.

Universal opponent as in having goals contradictory to all player species options. The Terraformers in the X series are basically von Neumann probes gone rogue, targeting any possible life form as an infection. A few of the higher power AIs start to develop something of a culture beyond a material culture, but that's a different setting and a different outcome. Most of the X-series plays away from the planetary gravity wells. Except for a few special cut scenes and missions, the entire experience is on orbital or asteroid stations, or in your vessels. Effectively, such a faction acts like large predators, possibly as an invasive species, in lower technology settings. I found an article on Medium which prompted me to think about sophonts from an all water planet which resulted in a short thread where I would expound on those ideas.

Strength means you have to enter the melee range of your enemy, whereas Lightning can be cast from outside of most missile ranges. Good value against a Truesword Sword Trance Humakti or similar combat monsters in my book...

Other than the Syphon River (which has a Chaos void at its headwater), the model of all Godtime water flowing upriver is pretty much unworkable. There was rain already in Godtime, falling to the earth and collecting in rivulets or re-emerging as springs after being soaked up by soil. The rivers did sliver inland throughout Godtime (until Skyriver Titan called down his brothers and summoned all other rivers to reverse their flow in order to aid Magasta's efforts to seal away the void of Jotimam). But either the water was glacially slow flowing uphill, or something else happened. Given that river sediments in Glorantha - even sediments from rivers that died before the Dawn - don't appear to behave much differently from river sediments in the world we know, I prefer the answer "something else happened". In my opinion, the rivers of Godtime were watery tentacles with an internal dynamic, internally cycling water while slowly creeping as far inland as they possibly could. They would have a headwater - often resembling a pool or bubble of water - which would have led the way, and they would spawn off children branching off, entwining their own flows back from and to the Seas (or inland bodies of water) with those of their parents. Internally, such a river tendril would have an outer skin of water flowing uphill, slowly eroding the soil or bedrock the river was creeping up, collecting nourishment for themselves, magical as well as nutrients for the life that they contained. All of that would be transported to the inside of the tendril, where a counterflow would carry back the stuff scooped up, and digest and sort it, dropping off dross like pebbles or rougher sands only where that backflow would be faster, and dropping off finer silts and clays where the river had a broad bed, and the transport would be slower. In that way, the silty valley bottoms were left behind by the rivers creeping up the valleys. Amphibious water beasts like e.g. the Nogatending boat birds or river craft like the Nogatending bird boats or Suvarian reed craft would use both the uphill currents and the inner downhill currents for propulsion. If you wanted to go downriver, you had to lower your webbed feet or paddles into the inner currents. Now, does this apply to the Syphon River? Not so sure about that, because the Syphon too heeded the command to rush towards the Chaos Void, like all the other (at the time dormant?) rivers of the world. Only in his case, the strongest pull towards a Chaos Void still was upriver, so the Syphon alone of all chaos fighting rivers would draw on the water of the seas to pour with all its might into the Chaos at its headwaters. There is a good chance that all the waters of the Syphon now flow uphill. Not a certainty, though - for an alternative theory, the Syphon might actually concentrate its outer membrane's salt and send back desalinated water or freshwater carried in by minor tributaries inside. Either way, from up close, the syphon river would bear more similarity with a jellyfish tentacle on a beach than with a normal river or rivulet IMO. Depending on the slope, people might even use carts to pull the river craft back downriver. Drawn by oxen rather than horses - the kind of horse yoke shown in the woodcut would be too modern technology for Glorantha. Pulling chariots and perhaps light carts with yokes similar to oxen yokes is the best horses can do in Glorantha, IMO. Heavy cargo is pulled by oxen, or by people. Carrying salt down towards the bay would be like carrying owls to Athens. Gloranthan tides are pleasantly slow, making salt gardens so much easier to manage. I wonder what causes the seven day rhythm of rising and falling water that can be observed quite spectacularly at Moonbroth. This apparently happened long before the rising of the Red Moon, and the seven day cycle is markedly different from Annilla's cycle of 1D6+1 days (unless a six is rolled). One possible cause for the seven day tidal cycle could be the entirety of the earth cube bobbing up and down in the waters of the world, a late keepsake from Umath pushing his parents apart, or possibly even from further back when the cubic pearl Bab first pushed through the upper boundary of the primeval sea, creating the first Dry Land, marking the start of the Green Age after the Blue Age. If that is the cause, than major tectonic events like the Breaking of the World, the impact of the Blue Moon and higher up sky debris, the tectonics ending the Second Age in southern Genertela or the Red Moon pushing up from Darsen, leaving behind the Crater, could have influenced those tides. At least as tsunamis. The impact of the original Blue Moon might be another candidate for the starting point for this bobbing motion. The blue moon had disappeared from the sky, and the activity at that Praxian oasis started, so Moonbroth.

One myth I was told is that there used to be four places of the tutle folk, in the four corners of the (Homeward?) Ocean. They were called the Sofali, after the turtle goddess whose children became their companions and totemic animals, or the Diroti, for they were the first people to build boats. Two of these populations still exist, one in the southeastern corner of Genertela, one in the northeastern corner of Pamaltela. According to the myth I was told, there were two such western populations, too, one in the south, and another one in the north. We have an old Orlanth myth about Orlanth defending the Diroti (turtle people) against the Seabird Army. It is in King of Sartar, p.65 in the hardcover edition/the pdf: There is one catch with this myth - there is no period in Godtime when there was a Homeward Ocean prior to the Greater Darkness, when Orlanth no longer walked the world but had set off into the Underworld to release Yelm from his prison, and Magasta called all the Rivers of the World (or all the Manthi waters of the world) to his aid to plug that hole. However, there were four corners of the world, partially flooded, and there was a western shore. And if I assume that there were two such turtle-riding sea people, then the ones who received aid by Orlanth before being destroyed by the Seabird Army may very well have been the southwestern ones. That leaves the northwestern ones to find. So, just maybe, their turtles were sleeker, and more draconic?

Wow. Just wow. @scott-martin some fodder for your mountain musings. In other words, a new path to enlightenment. Lead onwards, sensei.

I call it an enforced mass utuma - ending the dragon dream experiment by ascending all dragonspeakers however far they may have come. Orlanthi (from Saird) will have contributed to the Horde, or have come as raiders from Maniria, but you forgot the Carmanian Empire (which actually led the invasion of 1042, and was one of the major contributors to the Horde in 1120). Praxians came as raiders, too. Both the Only Old One and the Hendriki king sent forces as defenders (the Hendriki king went himself), but the Horde was invincible because of its immense numerical advantage.

Well, the trolls showed their displeasure by summoning/embodying the Hungry Eater, an aspect of their goddess which went at Daysenerus. Palangio got away with that by having Nysalor on his team, who pulled the Yelmalio stunt of letting himself be eaten, then added the searing of the womb of Korasting while down and out. Voila, Curse of Kin. Those guys had forced their emperor to step down! Unheard of! The Rebels usurped authority! Justice can only be dealt from above, but that son of Quivin? Ordanestyu, the Yelmic noble who had been put forward, decided to go the way of Arraz the celestial servant and minister rather than attempting the Ten Tests. Only when the tribute-taking rebels had been pushed out, the next emperor could undergo the Ten Tests. The next emperor Erzanestyu (and at least one successor, writing this from memory) kept Ordanestyu as their advisor. Something like that could be done, but then actually seeing Time stop was more than most of the various magicians causing that effect all over the Surface world had expected. Participants included Fronelan wizards impressing beast barbarians, the Kralori dragon emperor, and the Dara Happan Emperor alongside the Theyalan Council supporting the birth of Osentalka, the Perfect God. All of the Dara Happan and Theyalan magical energies had been poured into this project, so leeching some off to incanate an ancestor might have been regarded as sabotage. Such as Arkat? Yes, only a lot more so. The Black Eater can be summoned as a Great Spirit in the game Nomad Gods. Such a summoning is slightly below the threshold of breaking the Compromise. What Palangio did was more powerful. Palangio was beyond rune lord/priest, and an illuminate. He had been part of the God Project, and had handled exotic and powerful magics in that function. You can also end this state by dying and joining Humakt's eternal Warriors in his Other Side, waiting to fight to avert a total end of the world. Yes, greater than calling in the Founders or the Great Spirits of Prax through a summoning. But then, manifesting a spirit is what spirits are supposed to do on occasion.

The Waertagi usually use the motive power of water, or water beings, to move their ships, but it is a very nice image you paint here. One might see this as a reprise of the Initiation of Orlanth, when he led all the Others out of their underworld prison.

Yes, "digijelm" is the Dara Happan name for Uz. Palangio the Iron Vrok, the foremost hero from Dara Happa in the Bright Empire, who brought Daysenerus (Lightfore/Yelmalio) to the Battle of Night and Day (breaking the Compromise) and who conquered all the Storm Barbarians for Nysalor. He even sent Arkat to Hell. Actually it was a kinsman of the previous emperor who the Theyalans planned to announce as a puppet emperor, but he declined. He still averted the worst of an interregnum and helped the next emperor (his nephew, IIRC) to the Ten Tests, and remained the power behind the throne for quite a while. Yes, that was bad, as they had no emperor, but now they had no emperor, and they had to pay tribute! Not the Godworld, but Godtime. Basically all of Glorantha was in a Heroplane situation. The Heroplane is the (echo of the) Middle World in Godtime. While the gods walked this place in Godtime, the Godworld is still beyond these places, where the gods have their domains. Time was wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey while Other Side rules took hold of the Surface World. Generally, no. If you enter the Other Side from within Time, that (plus an unknown amount of time) is when you return. Same with the Surface World entering the Sunstop, really. Neither, really. While it is possible to summon heroes from the Other Side into rituals or even battles, it takes Surface World effort to do so. Granted, the Sunstop was lots of Surface World effort, and the births of Nysalor and Arkat were among the results. A time of great omen etc., but quite a lot of magical effort needs to be dedicated to contact a Godtime entity - usually by the Surface World entity entering the Other Side. Palangio incarnating Daysenerus at the Battle of Night and Day was a big thing. The trolls collectively embodying the Black Eater in response was bigger, and Nysalor allowing himself to be eaten and then searing its womb was yet bigger. I am not aware of a Dara Happan procession of the dead like Esrolia has. No idea what happens inside Shargashi enclosures.

Both Durengard and Jansholm have similar access from the Bay, on much tamer estuaries. There is little hinterland to Backford that makes that city the better entryway.

Really dislike them sums it up nicely. Unlike the Orlanthi, the Dara Happans don't have a native cult protecting Tricksters. The Lunars introduced Danfive Xaron as a possible career change, but that cult isn't fun at all. Best thing that ever happened within history, alas, it didn't last. They even received tame Storm worshipers in their neighborhood, and their Iron Vrok brought order and Justice to all of central Genertela south of the mountains. The Digijelm got crippled, and the other Elder Races participated in the Dorastan Council, accepting the Imperial Justice of the Dara Happan Empire. The arrival of Arkat Gbaji created problems in the far southwest, but Palangio managed to contain the problem, sealing the Deceiver to Hell. But a rebellious descendant of a rebellious lineage of Storm worshipers abused the Underworld Summons of Bijiif to release Gbaji, and although he soon regretted doing that, the damage was done, and Gbaji and his Storm rebel followers marched against the Bright Empire. Gbaji never invaded Dara Happa himself, but the Storm rebels used the opportunity to invade Dara Happa after the Emperor had sent his best forces to the aid of Dorastor against Gbaji and his Digijelm followers. The emperor was forced to abdicate, an upstart barbarian with a weak lineage from Lodril became Overseer of Dara Happa, and only the wisdom of the Great Advisor led Dara Happa out of this darkest period of its history. The Dara Happans came to the inevitable conclusion that they had been too mild towards the Storm rebels.