Joerg

Looks like a better definition of "enemies", but doesn't answer my questions about conditionally hostile encounters that require a trigger. Nor does it define "harm". Like I said, the party's own Trickster ought to register every single time the spell is cast.

I am not sure that a fetch could be captured as it is not an independent discorporate entity, more an appendage into the spirit world. A discorporate shaman whose Fetch is watching over his prone body can be captured, on the other hand, as can be any non-shaman foolhardy enough to discorporate.

Was this a standard treatment, or was it a form of escalation of brutality like the Oldster Fonritians would inflict? There are lots of other unpleasant mutilations that retain more functionality, like ham-stringing of smiths, gelding, removal of the tongue, amputation of fingers... but we see little evidence for that in Lunar/Dara Happan enslavement. Branding and punitive curses seem to be the Pelorian way, possibly inherited from the Vadeli and their leader YarGan. The branding might affect the aura of the enslaved individual, too, and will act as a beacon for spirits of reprisal. The Afadjanni noose is just a variant of this. Male slaves in Prax or Pent can say good-bye to their reproductive appendages, though they may keep their peckers (unlike certain types of eunuchs elsewhere). In The Coming Storm, the giant thrall Willandring suffers the same mutilation as Wayland in Germanic myth. (The names aren't that different, either...)

The myth is picturing young Orlanth as an unmitigated asshole without offering any explanation or excuse. And to give credit to the neighbors of the hill barbarians, all too many of his worshippers fail to overcome that juvenile state of mind, justifying their behavior as barbarian, especially when dealing with beings outside of their peer group. At the same time, if approached properly, these unmitigated assholes are poster boy advertisments for hospitality, no matter what or who you are. Within Godtime, Chaos never approached Orlanth in this way. The Bright Empire and the Lunar Way are departures from Godtime interactions with Orlanth and his folk, but neither bothered to ask for hospitality. It is true - the Orlanthi see no more reason to be apologetic for such behavior than abusive frat boys at ivy league colleges or their protective parents do. They have the toxic entitlement that comes from instituted (cultural) exceptionalism. And though it may look like Whataboutism, basically the same goes for whichever Gloranthan culture you look at. Esrolia is nothing like a feminist utopia, the rule of the Grandmothers is a fascist dystopia somewhat mitigated by the Ezel priesthood, and less mitigated than in the Heortling cult of Orlanth. Loskalmi enlightened Hrestolism is based in xenophobic isolationism and has awakened the Kingdom of War through externalizing way too many bad things. Their inter-relationship is similarly toxic as the Praxian and Orlanthi fueling Chaos or the Devil through antagonistic worship. Rokarism, Dara Happan patriarchalism, Kralori conformism, Lunar chaotic liberation - "at the edge of light there is always shadow." Your modern US society notions of political correctness are as misplaced in Gloranthan context as would be electronic microcomputers. Glorantha feeds on archaic notions, even though it has an optimistic, summer-of-love spirit to mitigate some of the darkest of these notions. Yes. Put out your worst and most irrational behavior, and your wife will accept you with all of that before she softens your edges at every move you make under her supervision. Note the inversion of typical patriarchalist and misogynist stereotypes in this relationship. The woman is rational and sane, the man is emotional, unstable and volatile. And if you look at even more ancient motherhood myths, fatherhood is highly optional for Ernalda. She puts up with all of this male nonsense not because of some biological imperative, but because she enjoys the company of the clumsy oaf and his insecure attention. She gives him all the sentiment of achievement and control that Indiana Jones exerts in Raiders of the Lost Ark. If Indy had not done a single thing, the outcome (melted Nazis at the ritual opening of the ark) would have been the same, minus Indy and his girl being tied to a pole with eyes wide shut. There is no moral or point to Raiders any more than there is to this myth.

Funny that the practice was picked up by the English and was in widespread use providing cheap work for the colonies. Indenture rather than slavery, but in effect the same. The current US practice of using chain gangs is less economically motivated, and the mere housing and feeding of prisoners with tax payer money is more profitable than any forced labor of the inmates, but it remains a form of indenture, too. On the other hand, without a permanent address to your name you lose much of your personhood in modern western society, too. Orlanthi thralls still are people, although they are not regarded as kin, and when it comes to human sacrifice, thralls (including enthralled captives from raids or war) are the first to the block, and probably likewise when the Lunars rounded up Bat Fodder on its way to Whitewall. On the other hand, their children are born as free if underprivileged clan members even in slave-hunting clans. The Lunar approach to slavery might be seen as the logical extension to the de-humanizing of the lower tiers of Dara Happan society. Freedom is a suspect concept to the Dara Happans anyway. The entire Lunar religion is based on the concept of return from Death, and so is the mythology of the cult of Yelm. But then, the Lunar Way is also about Liberation, not necessarily from one's social station (which may mean slavery), but from all mundane matters. Attain spiritual liberation, and you will gain access to magic that can let your physical liberation follow - in case of doubt through physical death and spiritual rebirth and embodiment on the Red Moon. But none of the Lunar cults enforces conversion, not even the least altruistic ones like the Cult of the Crimson Bat which only takes voluneers. Granted with the option of non-volunteers being sacrificed before cultists are fed to their demon deity,, but the volunteers are given a conscious choice. Possibly with suicide as a third option unless the cultists are desperate to bring enough sacrifices that they prevent suicides. I don't think that a ritual death like e.g. entering the City of Alkoth does anything to alter cult membership. Everybody knows that there is a period of time between physical death (or entering the lands of the dead part of the Underworld) and the final judgement. In case of physical death, the usual interval is a seven day period. In case of people who entered the Underworld on other paths, or those who know a heroic way out of Hell without facing the judgement of Daka Fal, that period may be a lot longer, depending on the nature of their way out. There might be ways to remove the physical slave bracelets and collars and to replace them with magical ones tattooed or branded into the slaves, but that just exchanges removable enchantments for permanent until destroyed ones, and to make sure that the markings aren't easily defaced by other slaves, they probably need a condition that will harm the bearer fatally when the markings are tampered with. Covert possession by some sort of spirit might be another way, and I can think of unsavory cults or spirit societies which could provide spirits only too happy to inhabit a human body against their will for an extended time, but this would be easily (though not cheaply) curable by shamans or theist exorcists. Like I said above, being dead doesn't end your initiatory bond, but you are right, being stuck in the Underworld prevents you from regaining your rune power (and in severe interpretation, your chance of regaining magic points/renewable magical stamina, too). But then, nobody needs a slave incapacitated through having zero magic points (as per RuneQuest), except maybe as human sacrifice. Carrying your own piece of the Underworld (or even a greater Chaos void ) around with you to lead your god to assuming that you're in the Underworld, and you are fine as far as your owner is concerned. Again, this might be something curable by an exorcism, possibly combined with a surgical removal of the token piece of hell carried by the victim. It might be a Lunar hell, like the one Sheng Seleris (and a while later Hofstaring Treeleaper) was banished to, in which case no ordinary cult would be able to offer an exorcism, but that seems like absolute overkill by several magnitudes. I would settle for a magical curse or two, possibly some form of dead man switch triggers for an area effect enchantment. Some kind of evil version of the Issaries Market spell, targeting the escaping or misbehaving slave with agonizing pain or similar, possibly as a spirit sending.

In toying with describing Elmali steads and exploring how they may have been pushed into accepting the new cult of the Golden Spearman Yelmalio ouside of their clan instead, I have tried to put a number of the proposals and conclusions in this thread to practice. One concept that sort of suggested itself to me was that of Elmali bloodlines - solar worship running in ancestral lines, and these bloodlines establishing a network of intermarriages, fostering and shared holy places inside the network of clan relationships among the Heortlings. With their homeguard ersatz-chieftain role, horse magics, warrior ethos and religious obligation to wear gold, I guess that Elmali bloodlines tend to be a bit more affluent and influential than your run-of-the-mill Orlanthi bloodline. Even so, with an Orlanthi-all (i.e.. 6 out of 7) people initiating directly to Orlanth and Ernalda, and allowing some dual initiation, I figure that probably half of the members of these bloodlines will be regular Orlanthi rather than Elmali. Exploring intra-clan politics and maneuvering for tribal positions (to be created, exchanged, or discontinued) adds another field of Orlanthi interactions that may result in plot hooks or scenarios. Applying these considerations to create NPCs or possibly freeform characters has been an interesting experience so far. It is about time to create some gaming material out of these musings. Going the way of freeform charater descriptions with lists of people the character knows and needs to settle things with might be the most productive approach since it requires even less game rules overhead than HeroQuest.

A bit of clan politics to set Harelmal up. Harelmal is fighting for his political survival in the clan. As the head of the more prestigious of the two Elmali bloodlines in the clan his standing as a thane of the clan is somewhat secure, but the chief has been reluctant to support Harelmal’s motions to expand the horse pasture. He sponsors most of the sacrifices at the new Usara shrine from the resources of Redhorse Stead, with the other horse breeders reluctantly contributing a bit, and he pushes the clan for Harevyr’s household to be advanced to half-carl status in order to expand the oats fields for winter fodder. Faced with this much reluctance in the clan, Harelmal has begun lobbying for more influence in the tribe. He has taken on a few apprentices for horse-breeding and -taming both from within his own clan and from other clans. Three of them live as semi-permanent guests on his stead: Orlarkor Maniskison of the Ravenfriend clan. The 17-year-old is the older of two sons of the only Elmali carl in that clan and is here in order to learn both expert horsemanship and to buckle up on Elmal magic and lore. He has begun to study Kuschile horse archery and makes good progress, although his affinity to horses is only so-so. His father’s stead sends a regular stipend of sheep for his upkeep and for support to the Usara shrine. Hadrinor Urandasson of the Riverbottom clan. 21-year old son of the keeper of the Redalda shrine among the Riverbottoms, initiate to Elmal and Beren the Rider, and as friendly with Chalanyr as he can get without angering his hosts. The son of an Esrolian marriage, but a bit too high in status to marry into a household of anything but a member of the clan ring, Hadrinor is a valuable ally in Harelmal’s lobbying for recognition by the tribe as tribal horse-thane, an office currently unoccupied. Organda Ulanorsdotter of the Richmeadow clan, 20-year-old initiate of Redalda through both Elmal and Ernalda, of helering gender. She is building a renown as a horse healer while pestering Harelmal for minutiae on horse lineages in Quiviniland. Harelmal’s assistants from his own clan include Arnor Harvarsson, the 15-year-old grandson of Esranevra, fresh initiate of Orlanth Adventurous, despite Harelmal’s quarrel with Harvar, Kalf Instandsson of the Brightshield bloodline, 14-year-old grandnephew of Asborn Brightshield, the current head of that bloodline, and in line to be initiated to Elmal at the next opportunity, and Insterid Votenorsdotter, 16-year-old initiate of Ernalda Redalda from a slightly struggling carl household in the clan. Recurring and more than welcome guests of Redhorse Stead include: Boburto Golden Stallion of the Pol Joni, a worshipper of the Praxian sun daughter and Yelm Kargzant, a short man with clear Impala rider ancestry but an expert trader and judge of horseflesh; Ingarzeen Mulelord, Issaries thane of the Richmeadow clan and owner of a donkey herd dedicated to breed mules who often trades for stud services, and a strong supporter for Harelmal’s move for tribal horsethane; Geirborn Mareskalk, Elmal devotee and a former man of the Prince, of the Kheldon tribe. Despite his falling out with the Prince, he still has many friends in Boldhome and at the court. A recent addition to the list of guest of the stead is Orthanis Golden Spear. [If used for playing out the Elmal/Yelmalio schism on a family level, Orthanis is a follower of Monrogh Lantern spreading word of Monrogh’s new cult. If used for the start of the Hero Wars, Orthanis could e.g. be a follower of Rurik Runespear recruiting warriors for a hero band to support Argrath Dragonspear.] Orthanis is a charismatic and generous worshipper of the New Light, well versed in horse lore and sun magic, persuasive and diplomatic. He used to be a companion of the tribal king and rides a War Zebra stallion. Harelmal currently raises two yearling cavalry zebra foals as an experiment, and has another mare bearing one. Harelmal’s brother Tarkalor supports his brother’s ambitions and shoulders the extra duties resulting from Harelmal’s ambition willingly. Harevyr is a good friend and spear sister, and the stead could just about provide another half-team for plowing a fourth hide of grain fields to complement the one that Harevyr’s household would receive. Esranevra is a late-comer to the clan’s loomhouse politics, but with two daughters in prominent positions and as steadmistress of the head of a bloodline she has a bargaining position to be reckoned with in clan politics. Votenesta, while well liked and highly regarded in the clan, has little talent for politics and intrigue, but her circle of friends can occasionally be swayed to come in to support Esranevra’s moves in the loomhouse. Trymir has been sent to spend some more time with the companions of the tribal king in order to lobby for his father reviving the post of tribal horse-thane. He is building a bit of a name for himself in that company as a weaponmaster, but still needs to gather more favors to be an effective asset for his father’s ambitions. Jaronil is one of the highest ranking herders on the summer pastures and highly regarded in that community, and with his wife by his side he has been able to lobby the other herders to look favorable on Harelmal’s positions regarding horse pasture and hay allotment for horse breeding.

Rather than bogging myself down in counter-arguments in the Elmal/Yelmalio thread, I decided to take the problem on as a creative challenge and started to write up a sample stead led by an Elmali thane of his clan, and consider how this stead's population would have reacted to Monrogh's new teachings. I kept location and clan names vague, making it easy to place this anywhere simply by using nicknames for the clans rather than published ones. I'll probably flesh this out further, probably updating the text below, provide a map and maybe some character sketches for a print version. This is a fairly prestigious stead a bit away from the main settlement of the clan, likely to give hospitality to visitors, thus enabling interaction with traveling groups of player characters. Or they could be kin. I plan to add another, less prestigious household with an Orlanth head of household but Elmali sons, and maybe provide character sheets for a mini-freeform similar to Sartar High Council where an emissary of Monrogh seeks to gather converts for the new Yelmalio cult. The Redaylding bloodline has been providing the horse thane for the clan for years and is in charge of maintaining the horse breed. Redhorse Stead is inhabited by the families of the sons of Orstalli the Beren, deceased ringmember of the clan, and three dependent cottar households. Harelmal is the steadmaster, a 50 year old god talker of Elmal, one of the best judges of horse breed in the tribe. Steadmistress is Esranevra, a 48 year old initiate of Ernalda struggling to postpone her progression to Asrelia – her youngest child is the nine years old daughter Voralda. She is Harelmal’s third wife and mother to two sons and two daughters by Harelmal. It has been several years since Harelmal has last served on the clan ring, and his privileges as a thane of the clan are under scrutiny by rivals. Tarkalor, Harelmal‘s 42 year old brother, is an initiate of Barntar and the main provider of the stead. His wife Votenesta is a 44 year old initiate of Ernalda and an accomplished healer of animals, often called to other steads to help with difficult calvings or outbreaks of hoof rot or similar afflictions. Harelmal’s two oldest sons are the product of his temporary marriage to Mahomeva, a Redalda initiate a few years his senior. Jaronil is 28 years old, initiated to Elmal and Orlanth Thunderous, and in charge of the non-horse herds of the stead. He has just re-married after a seven-year political marriage to Benava, a carl’s daughter of the formerly feuding Badger clan two valleys away, and leaves the raising of his five year old son and his two year old daughter to his stepmother and his brother’s wife while he is away with the herds on the summer pasture in the high valleys. His new wife Gatana is an initiate of Ernalda and an expert cheese maker who joins him on those pastures despite being glowingly pregnant approaching the third season. Trymir is 24 years old, initiated to Orlanth Adventurous, a master of the javelin from horse-back and a prominent member of the clan warband as well as an accomplished hunter. He is married to Inerra, a 27 years old initiate of Ernalda and Mahome, an excellent cook and acting mother or nanny to all the children on the stead. They have two daughters and a younger son, and Inerra is pregnant again with only half a season to term. 18 year old Chalanyr is the only child of Harelmal’s short-lived middle marriage to Kallyr, a headstrong Redaldan from Runegate. Like her mother, Chalanyr has initiated to the Redalda subcult of Elmal. She is the best horse trainer on the stead, and the clan is considering an Esrolian or Vingan marriage for her. 16 year old Berentyr is the oldest of the children of Harelmal’s marriage with Esranevra, a recent initiate to Elmal full of pride in his status as a thane and ambition to become a ring member or even chief of the tribe. His fire magic is strong, and he disdain’s his oldest brother’s dual initiation. Berentyr wields his grandfather’s spear of enchanted silver, a renowned weapon in the werewolf wars, with considerable skill. 12 year old Tarhelanth is enjoying his first year as sheep-herder under the aegis of Jaronil and his wife up on the summer pasture, and is readying himself for manhood, or so he thinks, accompanied by his cottar sidekick age mate Urothsil Janerrasson and a huge and quite ancient shadowcat named Tolvren. Berentyr’s mother Esranevra would be happier if Urothsil wouldn’t display such an uncanny family likeness to Orstali’s lineage, but his widowed Yinkini mother doesn’t know, care or tell who the father was or may be. Neither does her brother-in-law under whose roof she lives. His twin sister Tarkala is about to undergo her adulthood rites, possibly just after the arrival of a group of guests. Nine year-old Voralda is in the same age group as some of her nieces and nephews, which irritates her quite a bit. She is best friends with her cousin Inerra. Unlike his brother, Tarkalor Orstallisson has been happily married to the same woman since shortly after he became an adult. His oldest daughter Berra is married to a carl of the Richmeadow clan. Anatyr Tarkalorsson is (for all his Elmali-sounding name) a 21-year-old initiate of Orlanth Thunderous and proud father of a 2-year-old son and a newborn daughter by his 19 year-old wife Bereva, initiate of Ernalda and younger daughter of the earth priestess of the warlike Ravenfriend clan. Anatyr handles the second of the three plow teams of the stead with nearly as much skill as his father. 18-year-old Finovanth on the other hand has followed the bloodline tradition and initiated to Elmal, alongside with Berentyr. A solid and at times unimaginative young man who is on the marriage market, he spends a lot of his spare time with Janerra, the resident Yinkini cottar, not mindful of the difference in age. 16-year-old Redalsin is going to marry the son of a wealthy Elmali carl of the Riverbottom clan, and while she is somewhat anxious about leaving her family behind, she finds some solace in the prospect of joining the loomhouse there where her aunt Onelisin Orstallidotter is one of the leaders. The females on the stead are all abuzz about her wedding dress and lots of other loom- and needlework she is going to take with her. 14-year-old Inevra is worried about being a late bloomer. Unlike her cousin Tarkala, there have been no signs of her going to be initiated to the Ernaldan mysteries. Although not at all a tomboy, she has been seen observing the resident Vingan cottar Harevyr attentively since last Sacred Time, from which Harevyr emerged pregnant, shortly after her wife Iselda had also been blessed with a pregnancy. 10-year-old Harvastor is extremely jealous of Tarhelanth and Urothsil for their privilege of joining the herders on the high pasture. To make up for that, he spends as much time as he can get away with in the carpentry workshop of the resident cottar and carpenter Orstavanth, Janerra's brother-in-law, in the pursuit of manliness, more so since his growth has been somewhat stunted after he was badly hit by the minor plague that hit the clan five years ago. 7-year-old Orstalli and 4-year-old Kallyr have yet to make any lasting impression other than children's play. Grand-aunt Esrynn was the sole survivor of a stead-burning and returned to her birth clan after losing her husband and all her children, hideously scarred by that fire. Despite all that, she continues to bake the best bread in the clan while approaching her seventieth birthday, and she oversees the firing of the kiln like no other. Possible plot hook: The visiting characters are members of either the clan who did the burning or the clan Esrynn married into. While staying overnight, they are plagued with vivid images of the stead-burning, and a woman’s wail for revenge that won’t leave them for days after that nightmare. Will they consent to receive a prominent birth mark in atonement/as a pledge to avenge the burning? Characters who accept the burn mark for 1D4 hit points will have an augment equivalent to a special success on a passion should they ever face the test of Ehilm’s Flames, or may once ignore that amount of fire damage in a life-and-death situation (erasing that burn mark with a new scar). Absent kin: Of the daughters of Harelmal’s generation, four are married to or widows in nearby clans, two have died. All but one were married to prestigious partners, but then everybody was glad to see the last of Ernarne’s obsession with blood revenge on the Richmeadow Clan slayers of her first love and groom from the Ravenfriend Clan who died cattle-raiding the birth clan of many of the women in the clan. Corvantyr and Hedkosil, two half-brothers of Harelmal and Tarkalor and Elmali warriors, are absent, presumed dead, after they joined Tarwin’s Riders, the warband of a notorious but until their disappearance quite successful raider and mercenary. Their last messages and gifts reached the clan four years ago from western Esrolia, after a victorious skirmish against Ditali or Solanthi raiders. Corvantyr’s booty-wife Urgrika from the Ditali who accompanied the brothers on an earlier visit lives with the cottars and oversees the pigs of the stead, his seven year old daughter is raised by Inerra along with the other kids of the stead. Urgriga also has a son conceived during the harvest rites two years ago. With Corvantyr’s return unlikely, the household is reluctant to adopt that boy, and he will likely grow up to be a cottar. Unusually, two of Esranevra’s daughters from her earlier marriage had married into the clan before her own marriage to Harelmal. When her husband died and the bloodline nominated his brother as new steadmaster, Esranevra decided to leave that clan. Both her daughters are married into prestigious households. Berena is the wife of Harvar Thunderspeaker, the Storm Voice of the clan, of the Thundercloud bloodline. Harvar and Harelmal aren’t on the best of terms over the assignment of cottars to the thane households, with Harelmal claiming that the Elmali thanes receiving too little support. Ernevra, the younger of the daughters, is married to Tonalang Puresalt, the only son of the head of the Puresalt bloodline leader and overseer over the modest but important salt harvesting operation of the clan at the mineral spring over in the next valley. Cottar Households at Redhorse Stead Orstavanth is the resident carpenter of the stead, and the master of the biggest of the cottars' households. A 35-year-old initiate of Orlanth, married to Oranda, father of four children ages 2 to 14, and foster father for the children of his brother's widow Janerra, 29-year-old initiate of Yinkin and mother of eight children, including 16-year old Orstevin and 12-year-old Urothsil. Her developing pregnancy might be the result of her taking Finovanth into her bed, but as usual, Janerra neither confirms or denies this. Her hunting skills and the shadowcats she breeds make her a valuable member of the stead. Harevyr is the Vingan head of the second cottar household of Redhorse stead. The 28-year-old initiate of Vinga is married to Inevra, a 30-year-old assistant god talker to the Grain Goddess, acting father to three of Inevra's children, and due to an Other Side encounter last Sacred Season as pregnant as her wife. ------------------------ That's it for now. I'll expand and update the text. Comments, suggestions and collaboration welcome.

Plus there are other ways of social turmoil caused by the Elmal-Yelmalio split. I have been writing up an Elmali thane household to place somewhere in Sartar. If this household would be hit by the decision whether or not to follow Monrogh to conquer the ruins of Vanntar (ok, that's just a campaign against those hateful darkness worshippers to free a holy place) and then to move over there. How will the clan react to that, and how will those family (blood line, household) members who are not initiated to Elmal react? Will dependent cottars follow? How will splitting the children of the stead affect these children who grew up as siblings up to that point? What about the marriages, and the alliances they stand for? WIll the birth clans of the wives of the Elmali turning to Yelmalio have any form of alliance to those new entities? And how are the new Yelmalion landlords presiding over the conquered Ergeshi population organized? Will they have clans, or will arrivals from numerous different clans group together as a sort of landlords' guild? What about non-Yelmalian cottar followers of theirs? Will they form a non-slave-owning lower- to middle-class small landholder half-carl class? What about any former thralls lorded over by the Kitori (e.g. extorted through the Shadow Tribute)? Some will flock to the independent tribes of Volsaxar, e.g. swelling the Kurtali Clan to the Curtali tribe, others might have remained as thralls of the conquerors.

Not quite, because any active spell will give off a magical glow or radiance that can be perceived even with normal senses, and Gloranthans will know what to look for. Someone under the effect of the Berserk rune spell will give off such a glow, too, possibly accompanied by a spectral afterimage of the appropriate raging beast - bull (Storm Bull), lion (Basmol), wolf (Humakt? possibly only for unusual subcults), as per the illustration on p.320 - and you don't need Detect Magic to perceive that. Even Countermagic does give off that glow.

Ordinary bronze doesn't do this, but if the bronze is infused with the power of the enchantment, it will be magical. It isn't entirely clear when an enchantment has to be placed on the metal item - can it be added only while the smith is creating it with fire and forge, or can a blade that has seen some combat already be endowed with an enchantment? Anyway, the enchantment for bronze (or brass) is probably rare, and only applied where only inferior metal is available.

Pretty serious about cannot, really, when it comes to the two main cults. Those services do heavy lifting for the magic available to the clan, and the better the leader of the service is attuned to these magics, the less of the magical sacrifice of the congregation will go to waste. And attendance to the holy days of the big cults is quite mandatory, and might even attract those cousins living in the city every now and then. Think of it like donating to a charity. Your Mr. Popular "I have heard about the god" will be able to pass on only a fraction of the magic that a dour but deeply magically immersed god talker can. Clearly overstating things, yes. A worship or sacrfice service is a nice opportunity to feast on the meat of the sacrificial beasts, so only Chalana Arroy holidays might be culinarily disappointing. It is a day off the fields or the forge, an opportunity to meet folk and talk thins through. If you live on an isolated stead, this is the chance to meet all those friends and kin gathered in one place rather than spread all over the tula. To be honest, the very notion that a clan holy day service has to compete for its audience of lay worshippers strikes me as a bit odd. A specialist temple that attracts cultists from neighboring clans might compete with another temple of that cult three clans away for the attendance of initiates, but in that case alliances, feuds and antipathies may play a greater role than the showmanship of the leader of the service. It is the difference between a charity spending most of their earnings on advertisements and organisation with little throughput and a highly efficient, low overhead charity that passes most of their earnings on to the target group of the charity. There is nothing to stop guests and pilgrims from joining the outer circle of worship - for Ernalda rites, I imagine that Imperial occupation forces present might have joined on the outer ring of worshippers, too. Also, on clan level every worship service includes worship/feeding of the wyter, and that's a duty that directly repays. Refusal to give magic to the wyter is only one step from leaving the community. I had the impression that the clan would invite a holy person better qualified to contact the deity for sacrifices. I don't have any examples for clans doing so, but Orgwaha Blue Llama officiating on Storm Bull's holy day in Boldhome during Temertain's reign is a documented case for such practice.

Their loss of Whitewall probably was not the end to the Kitori threat, and the Volsaxi were far from the power and unity they had as a separate kingdom two centuries earlier. The Kitori had lost much, and would re-emerge from their woods every now and then. Tarkalor's roadbuilding would have been an excellent target to exact some revenge, so you can have quite a bit of hostile action during Tarkalor's reign, too. King and Prince are used rather interchangeably, somewhat annoyingly. There are sun worshippers north of the Creek, too. Some of them would be Dinacoli. As Prince of Sartar, Tarkalor built the road to Whitewall, past the Troll Woods. The Kitori could also try to start slave revolts in Sun Dome County. King of Sartar talks about a feud between Tarkalor and the Kitori, not a single war. His nom-de-guerre Trollkiller also indicates that this was no singular action. And The Coming Storm focusses on northern Quiviniland. My greatest respect to Ian, but the events south of the Crossline are not what the book is about.

Yes. I posit 1539 as the date when Tarkalor and Monrogh depart to Teshnos from the Zola Fel valley, after having had a first run through the Pavis Rubble, and possibly visiting Sun County, and somewhere there encountering a depiction of an elephant. They would have returned by 1541, with Monrogh's vision of the many suns in their baggage, and the recruitment of the disgruntled Elmali to Monrogh's new form of Yelmalio will start. 1545 is a good date for the assault on Vanntar, but so is 1547. I think that Monrogh must have settled down in the initial winnings before sending off a quarter of his force to join Dorasar. I have no idea how long the establishment of New Pavis took. Few walls build themselves overnight, and even with the support of the Flintnail cult, getting the walls up and building the temple to Pavis leaning on the wall will have taken some time. Recruiting more settlers may have stretched out even more. The guide gives an unambiguous 1550 for the founding of New Pavis, but the founding may have been a ceremony with a plow. My (at the time really modest) home city of Kiel was built over the course of 10 years, from 1233 to 1242, before it received the Lübeck city laws and is sponsor (the count of Schauenburg) moved in. Given the rather precarious location of New Pavis, having a covering force of Sun Domers would have been a must until the walls were finished. Varthanis becomes count of Sun County only in 1567. There is likely to have been interaction with the native Sun Domers before, probably hiring what level of a mercenary force they could muster, and training them with the men brought from Monrogh's forces. It is possible that Tarkalor's involvement in the Kitori defeat helped trigger Sarotar's death. I only made the connection between the Night Jumpers and the assassinations when I saw those troll bodyguards with their Kimantoring/Kitori masks in Prince of Sartar and thought "now that's a homing beacon for Night Jumpers" and a means for the assassins (in high likelihood not hired ones, but members of the House of Sartar) to show up behind all those layers of defense that Nochet offers. Since it is sort of apropos to this thread, I might as well outline the life history of two (deceased) NPCs for my scenario Norinevra's Homecoming. Quite a bit of this may be speculation and contradicted. Norinevra's Story: Norinevra was born in 1527 as the daughter of a lesser lineage of House Norinel. (Her grandmother was a younger sister of Queen Bruvala.) Of sufficient standing for a role in house politics, she was introduced into a role as a handmaiden of Arkilia at the age of eight years in order to learn the ceremonies and daily routines of the royal house of Nochet. At age eleven Norinevra became a woman and was initiated into the mysteries of Ernalda. I like to think that Arkilia is a granddaughter of Bruvala, a cousin of Norina. (Checking the birthdates in Jeff's family tree eliminates the possibility of Arkilia being a daughter of Brengala, unless she was a twin sister of Norina who was born in 1525). As a handmaiden of Arkilia, Norinevra stood by her side in numerous rites, and she undertook several more pilgrimages to Ezel in Arkilia's entourage, receiving additional magical teachings. When she was 13 in 1540, Sarotar of the House of Sartar underwent a year marriage with Arkilia of House Norinel, spending the year in Nochet (? pending comment from Jeff). A year later Arkilia's first daughter is born and named Marlesta. Sarotar meant to continue with another year marriage, taking Arkilia home to Boldhome (mirroring Sartar's contest with the FHQ), but Bruvala, the previous Queen of Nochet who had retired from queenhood in favor of her daughters in order to become the Reverend Grandmother of House Norinel, had other marriage plans for Arkilia – my current idea is to have her choose a suitor from sons of House Deleaos. (There is no way that Bruvala will give up a daughter of House Norinel to the upstart House of Sartar, regardless whether Sartar became King of Dragon Pass and his son from the Sacred Marriage taking another high-ranking earth priestess for his wife, and regardless of the heroquesting prowess of House Sartar, including Sarotar himself. I thought that one of Sartar's rivals for the hand of the FHQ was from Esrolia, but I seem to have misremembered that – the Kethaelan candidate is now said to have been a Hendriki.) Sarotar manages to anger Bruvala to the extent that he isn't welcome to visit his daughter any more. He still spends a lot of his time in Nochet (although he has to fulfill magical duties in Sartar and surrounding lands, maintaining the ancestor cult to the Flame of Sartar), and when he does, he confronts other suitors for Arkilia's hand. In short, he displays everything the Esrolian grandmothers loathe about Vingkotling kingship. I think that Sarotar escalates his efforts, resorting to heroquesting in order to regain Arkilia (who probably is flattered by his obstinate efforts, and might even encourage his attentions despite Bruvala's veto, enabling some contact between Sarotar and his daughter). During this time, it is likely that Norinevra acted as go-between between Arkilia and Sarotar, pursuing her personal dalliance with a certain Aski Durharlsson, a chieftain's son from a certain Sartarite clan among Sarotar's companions (and the weaponmaster in charge of training Dorasar). First collection of black marks with the Reverend Grandmother. In 1546 Sarotar attempts to abduct his daughter from the confines of House Norinel, and is killed in the effort. This is the year after Reverend Grandmother Bruvala died and was succeeded by her youngest daughter Brengala, mother of Queen Norinel. Possibly the same year Marlesta visits a performance of the Puppeteer Troupe and joins them, escaping the supervision of Norinevra. Brengala foams and exiles Norinevra, who finds refuge with Aski. Aski Durharlsson has transferred his allegiance from Sarotar to Dorasar, and aids him in setting up the New Pavis settlement. Norinevra joins them at the building site of New Pavis, and they find time to raid the rubble and acquire a number of artifacts, some of which are pertinent to my scenario and tie in with the Kimantorings and Nochet. When news of the death of Aski's father reaches New Pavis, Aski quits his service honorably and returns to his birth clan, with his wife Norinevra and a bundle of magical artifacts in tow. Within a few years, Aski becomes chief of the clan. He dies gloriously in the service of the Prince of Sartar, and Norinevra chooses to join Asrelia even though she still could have remarried. She remains with the eight surviving children of hers, marrying off her daughters to numerous prestigious thanes all over Sartar, and taking a hand in the prestigous marriages of her granddaughters and great-granddaughters too. Which reminds me: The grandparents in question who inspired the character need not have been part of their birth clan.

It sounds like the typical Fire Season campaigning. In fact, the description in Composite History of Dragon Pass sounds like a Full Game of the Dragon Pass boardgame with the Lunars having pre-spent diplomacy to ally Cragspider, the Tusk Riders, Delecti and the Dragonewts, and the Sartarites just getting one dragon, until we get to the fighting in Boldhome.

A similar case could be made for physical abuse of the characters in situations of (temporary) helplessness. I dare say that at least 85% of all roleplayers will have had such experience in real life, and a portion of them may be triggered when their alter ego is subjected to such an experience. And there will be game situations where the characters become perps. Sexuality in tabletop roleplaying games are a minefield anyway. Can homosexual advances on a character occur in a game? What about magical gender changes and gender dysphoria? Player characters performing a rape should be a no-go in game situations, but dubious offers of sexual favors with dependents may crop up in certain fantasy societies, and in criminal underworld situations. Saving folk from violent oppression is an old staple of story-telling, including abusive marriages or complete domination. The Orlanthi stance on sex with minors reads like it was directly lifted from Tacitus' Germania. Given that that book was written to hold up a "mirror" of the noble savages to his Roman society, can we infer that sex with minors is not a taboo in other societies? The orgies of the Red Emperor have been implied not to have such taboos in the Biturian story about the Lunar slaver offering to buy Morak. Needs table-top roleplaying be restricted to the "clean" fun of hacking off limbs and slaughtering foes?

My problem with this is the 1551 date for the start of the conflict, and the reason for that is the 1550 date for Dorasar settling Pavis, accompanied by Varthanis Brighthelm, an underling of Monrogh who brings a contingent of Yelmalians from Vanntar. That implies that Vanntar has already been taken from the Kitori by 1550. Whitewall "falls" in 1560. And Saraskos gets born some time between the conquest of Vanntar and the liberation of Whitewall, indicating Tarkalor being active in the Grazelands. This really is part of the ongoing Elmal-Yelmalio thread. Events of that war do include joining the Night Jumpers (possibly even before Sarotar's Death - Tarkalor's involvement in the feud against the Kitori doesn't have to be triggered by the events in Nochet), the conquest of Vanntar, the binding of the enslaved Kitori as Ergeshi (a Dara Happan term meaning slave, see the explanation of Gods Wall III 18-20, Guide p.677). Possibly an old magic left behind by Palangio, and re-awakened by Monrogh? Here's my try to give a short but fairly complete description of the Kitori, too long for inclusion in the family history, but maybe useful as a sidebar: The Kitori are an ancient race of Darkness worshippers able to take on human, troll or shadow shape, in the image of the Only Old One who adopted the first humans and trolls who became Kitori in magical adoption. Tney used to be the representatives of the Kingdom of Night and collected the Shadow Tribute, an equal exchange of food, wares, magic and protection of humans and elder races around the Obsidian Palace, tailored to each group's means and needs at the onset of the Sliver Age before the Dawn. When on official missions, the Kitori wore a distinctive, troll-muzzle-shaped leaden mask, a grey cloak of goose feathers, and a stout spear, regardless which shape they had. Palangio the Iron Vrok lifted the Shadow Tribute after he had conquered the Kingdom of Night for the Bright Empire. When Arkat liberated the lands and ended the Bright Empire, he re-instituted the Shadow Tribute, and expanded it in the north with his uz allies benefitting from the tribute of the northern humans. This was called Arkat's Command, and it was obeyed for over a century until the Orlanthi rose up against it in the Tax Slaughter. In the Kingdom of Night, the Kitori Shadowlords were weakened by this, too, and they became a tribe apparently of darkness humans and trolls living on, in and around the Shadow Plateau. After the Dragonkill, the Kitori expanded into the lands forbidden to humans north of the Crossline, and protected by that curse also dominated the Volsaxi living just south of that border. They held on to these lands even after Belintar slew the Only Old One, and it was Tarkalor's war who reduced their range to the Troll Woods (and presumably the Lead Hills and Shadow Plateau), with the valley of Vanntar occupied by the former Elmali dissidents from Old Sartar. The less magical of their folk who didn't manage to flee from their Vanntar home were enslaved by the Sun Domers and somehow bound to their human shape, and form the Ergeshi slave population of that land. House Norinel may have the claim to have mothered the first Kitori, the son of the Only Old One who was murdered by Eurmal in the course of the Lightbringer's Quest in his betrayal of Orlanth deep in Hell. The causality in Norinel's hostility to Sarotar's advances might even be inverted - Tarkalor's support of Monrogh against the Kitori may have incited forces inside House Norinel to take steps against his half-brother's suit. Although the will of the Grandmother Bruvala is absolute law inside the House and also for its dependents, internal intrigue and special alliances with associate Houses or in this case the Kitori may have prevailed. It is not for nothing that Bruvala had de-throned two of her daughter queens, not just for ambition but also for disagreements about policy. Bruvala, Brengala and Imarjira all are instrumental in the rise of Nochet from the ashes, not yet at the same size as Rhigos but reclaiming much of the area inside the old walls of Nochet. At some point, they relocate part of the sprawling Antones Estates out of the walled territory, e.g. around the Temple of Kimantor. Some interaction with the Blackmaw may have been involved, too.

The Heortlings know Poverri for sweet water (and some coastal) fishing, and Pelaskos for coastal and open seas fishing. There is also Wild Orlanth (Varanorlanth) who once was sent off a hunt that distracted him from his true purpose (catching up with the Lady of the Wild) so that he went fishing with the trophies he got from overcoming her four beast guardians. Check Thunder Rebels for Poverri and Varanorlanth and Storm Tribe for Pelaskos. RuneQuest Companion (for Chaosium RQ2) tells about the importance of Diros to the Choralinthor fisherfolk, and this "Diroti" moniker gets applied to all kinds of human fisherfolk. The fisherfolk of the Wenelian Isles are survivors of the drowning of Slontos who are fairly similar to the Choralinthor Pelaskites, who come in all shades from blending with the other coastal dwellers. Given that the Orlanthi settlers were taken by Waertagi from Slontos/western Maniria (long before the 1050 drowning and Veskarthan's devastation), there is a great likelihood that there were some boat people among those firstcomers.

A nice approach to mapping, and one I haven't used yet - probably because my artistic talent is more suited to abstract shapes like runes. The landscape glyphs in the Atacama are visible to humans from the hills nearby, but to be able to perceive this, you need to look down from at least the Middle Air. Which might be one reason I haven't used this kind of landscape naming for a fantasy setting yet. Straight lines and great circles are the kind of geometry I expect Bronze Age cultures to be able to understand and to produce in the landscape. Abstracting a two-dimensional bird's view map is quite a progressive achievement, but that kind of map-making is well established in RQ publications. Map-makers often have raptor familiars which do give them the literal bird's view. Orlanthi have an alternative by visiting Orlanth's Palace in sky world, looking down from Orlanth's Ring.

Fisherfolk usually worship or at least propitiate Triolina. Annilla worship or propitiation is common in tidal areas, too. The entity of the local water, Dashomo, is likely to receive some attention, too. The coastal folk are probably 70% Malkioni, 30% Orlanthi. The Malkioni may practice some degree of henotheism towards their occupations, at least in propitiations, while Orlanthi may either fight the sea to get by or join sea cults. There might be Diroti (fisherfolk) among the "Orlanthi" immigrants. Terthinus doesn't appear like he accepts human initiates. He demands tribute and magic (propitiation), and he organizes the local Malasp to enforce his rule. Scavenging the tidal zone is hazardous if an unfriendly sea can send in "tidal" waves that have nothing to do at all with the Blue Moon tides but which are basically ginormous water elementals.

And still, war captives are one of the main sources for able-bodied slaves throughout history, carried off into the often distant lands of the invaders, distributed as individuals into households full of slaves of various origins, often with the language of the captors the only common means of communication. That's conquest, not slavery. Fonrit may have started that way. The case of the Maboder survivors "rescued" from Telmori captivity is the only such case known to me anywhere in or near Dragon Pass. The Oasis people are something else - a population submitting to whoever comes in force to their place, taking their food, water, wives, whatever as they please. That is in no way different from the slave (or indentured folk) trade that had gone on before. A main commodity the Vikings raided for were slaves. So did the barbary pirates up to the 19th century. Human traffic still is going on, sometimes masked as labor contract. The Wolf Pirates in Glorantha do likewise. They capture coastal and riverine people to work for them on their island strongholds (Threestep Isles, Seshnela, Jrustela), and to entertain them. Household slaves, fodder for gladiatorial or triumph games, bat fodder, orgy novelties - all of that is at good demand in the Heartlands. Oraya can do with cheap labor. Mines will eat up workforce when run by unscrupulous profiteers. Certain navies use slave rowers for military transports. Most societies that accept slavery have no qualms at all to turn some of their own into slaves. Mostly not from among their own kin, although desperate situations will see kin given up in tribute. One of the tragedies of the West African slave trade was that local chieftains sold members of their own constituency into slavery. When sold to neighboring tribes, the slaves often weren't much worse off than before, but when sold to the white traders stacking them in unsurvivable density on ships to carry them off into the New World they were uprooted and had hardly any chance to leave slavery. Many civilized societies don't bat an eye at selling criminals - including (and often especially) petty criminals caught stealing food or unable to pay taxes - off into temporary indenture or outright slavery. Tax extortion indenture or outright slavery is a common Lunar terror tactic. Tarsh and Saird have a great demand for field workers on their maize plantations, feeding a certain portion thereof to the corn rites that enable the rich harvests that made Lunar Tarsh so affluent.

Then the Varmandi may have been doomed time and again when raiding went bad and tribute was denied. But then a war clan can survive as an independent bandit warband with dependents and reform when the times are getting better.

Heal usually doesn't have to overcome POW, either, even when the receiver is unaware of the spell being cast, but is explicitely included in the things Countermagic blocks. (Not wishing to restart the Humakti geas thread, though) Detect life or Detect bronze are indirect ways of detecting potential enemies (although a completist would add Detect Undead and other weaponizable substances like lead or flint). Perhaps "Detect Weapons"? Anyway, would such targets be protected by Countermagic? Are there other area-effecting spirit spells that could be used like the EMP?

All oaths are made under some duress. That's how peace settlements are negotiated, people offer ransom or wed into unfavorable clans. Whether someone points a blade to your throat or whether you are deeply inebriated, an oath is something you have to keep in some way. Oaths made under duress usually have limiting clauses like "as my god allows me" or similar.

But: Were we discussing RuneQuest? While much of Glorantha is perceived through the mask of gaming products, we are in the happy situation to have several game systems to provide us such masks, including non-rpgs like King of Dragon Pass and its successors. That's my preferred approach, too As a matter of weregeld price, yes. But you cannot be a priest without being a godi (or having at least one, better several, at your beck and call). Theism is magic defined by what you are. You are called upon the clan ring (or equivalnt positions in similar hierarchies) for the magical benefit derived from being what you are. Placing a moderately suitable initiate on the ring for the effect his magic will have on the clan magic trumps placing the head of a bloodline on the inner ring. Being a godi is a vocation and takes a considerable amount of time and resources, which limits the amount of godar a household can support, and then only if the godi vocation coincides with enough of the household's economic functions, or through appointment to clan priesthood with enough of a stipend/retainers. You are mixing the rank of a clan thane (who has appointed retainers) with that of the role of the priest. A godi appointed to the priest rank will be a thane with retainers, a recognized godi will be ranked as a carl, and be appointed a retainer, too. The priest appointment comes with leading the clan through the life-and-death deciding rituals. A strong godi in that role will be able to deal with the job. A weak appointee will require the support of several strong godar to make things happen. Unlike in our real world non-magical hierarchies where party soldiers with no competence (outside of party lobbying, and all too often no insight) whatsoever will be appointed to a crucial office, there usually is a staff of people carrying the work load. Possibly in a "Yes, Minister" way. To illustrate what damage such an appointee can do, I would forward the Geman appointee to the EU council, Öttinger. The ressorts he has been placed in have underperformed badly, but they still did perform somewhat thanks to the bureaucracy behind them. You won't find it hard to find other instances of underwhelming qualification of office holders and decision makers in current world politics... If you are a poor clan verging on famine and extinction from bad neighbors, you don't have the luxury to appoint even the third best candidate to as crucial an office as Orlanth or Ernalda priesthood, whatever their political relationship to the current chieftain. The difference being that - apart from charismatic sects on the fringes of the religion - these priests aren't supposed to perform magic or miracles routinely. (The miracle of the Eucharism is conventiently independent of priestly activity beyond calling for it.) Political or dynastic bishoprics exist, or used to exist. Even there, a minimum of progression in the initiations was required, but their office was more presiding than performing. Dara Happa has its Yelmic nobility, eminently usesless social parasites but essential for their world order for what they are - divinely descended folk whose mere presence will strengthen the magic that keeps the world in order. Whether that order is worth maintaining can be left to debate. The struggling Orlanthi clan has no such inherited divinity to gamble on. The Orlanthi concept of divine favour is individual identification with the deity and the deity's feats, and the appointed holder of an office is supposed to do things competently. A struggling clan cannot afford an "oops" during the crucial rites to ensure at least minimum prosperity. A very wealthy clan may forgive that once or twice. The Heimskringla has that charming episode of the Ynglinga king in Värmland who failed to deal with the climate change. In the first year, considerable amounts of life-stock were sacrificed. In the second year, slaves were sacrificed. In the third year, the king was sacrificed, and the people left for better places. The Orlanthi don't have an equivalent of this, except for the Sacred Kings who may extend their period of office at the end of each turn (Illaro). The Malkioni (at least of Loskalm) do have this kind of rite. To get back to the original disagreement: If Jeff's statement that the clan chief will also be the clan priest refers to the number of retainers to carry the stipend and the resulting weregeld price, I can live with the statement, but deprieving a functional godi from the retainer stipend will result in weaker magic for the clan. Those structures of support are there for necessity, not for aggrandizement of the office holders.